Does Stannis have doubt?

[Salafi Stannis]

It depends on what topic the Stannis fans are defending him on.

If it's "he's a religious fanatic," then Stannis is the biggest atheist in the world and can in no way be held responsible for what Melisandre does.

If it's "he was going to murder a child," then Stannis was doing it for the greater good of the world because Melisandre says so.

Nope, he's an atheist. He believes in Mel's magic, not her God.

[Sweetgirl205]

He is a doubter. His wife is the fanatic. When Mel finally realized that Shireen has King's Blood and tries to sacrifice her, Stannis will put an end to R'hllor.

[Blazfemur]

They say Robert's warhammer was forged from the firey depths of Stannis gritting his teeth.

[LordStoneheart]

Nope, he's an atheist. He believes in Mel's magic, not her God.

How could he think she was fighting for the fate of the world if he didn't give her god some validity?

[Brightstar_]

How could he think she was fighting for the fate of the world if he didn't give her god some validity?

Well arguably he doesn't truly believe that either. He just recognises the Others as a huge threat, because he does believe in her magic. He doesn't have to recognise Red Rahloo for this.

[roxWolfox]

When speaking with Asha, he does comment that the Gods had not seen fit to make her a man. Since Asha worships a god (that is, one god), the speech seems off for someone who supposedly has faith. He doesn't commit himself to one god, or any god. It's Mel's magic/power he submits to.

[Brightstar_]

When speaking with Asha, he does comment that the Gods had not seen fit to make her a man. Since Asha worships a god (that is, one god), the speech seems off for someone who supposedly has faith. He doesn't commit himself to one god, or any god. It's Mel's magic/power he submits to.

He might still be speaking in terms of the Seven. Old habits die hard.

[DanielWilson]

Stannis accepts what he sees. He has seen Melisandre's magic work. As a psychic, a drone and other things. The Night's Watch had been sending letters to all the 'kings' for help for a while, the flame visions showed him the battle. It was his duty to protect the realm, and that was his chosen course of action, or destiny as Melisandre would put it.

All the ceremonies seem like Melisandre's concern, at the end of ADwD, I think he is much aware of Melisandre's cozying up to Jon. This is why I think he is contemplating so heavily on the flames. If he cannot see anything in them, he has simply lost a military option, and will change course.

In this case it is R'hllor who has to prove himself to Stannis, not the other way around.

[roxWolfox]

He might still be speaking in terms of the Seven. Old habits die hard.

I understand what you're saying, but he knows the Ironborn worship the Drowned God, not the Old Gods, nor the Seven. It may be that the farther away he travels from Melisandre, the more doubts he has in her (Mel's) power and god, and therefore reverts back to using the Faith of the Seven in his commentary out of habit.

[LordStoneheart]

Well arguably he doesn't truly believe that either. He just recognises the Others as a huge threat, because he does believe in her magic. He doesn't have to recognise Red Rahloo for this.

I'd believe this if he or Melisandre had ever said anything about the Others before getting the letter from the Night's Watch.

[DeathYon]

The dude's an Atheist.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

“The Seven have never brought me so much as a sparrow. It is time I tried another hawk, Davos. A red hawk.”

Stannis, like most of in-universe characters, does not question the existence of gods. As I have understood the average mindset regarding religion, all gods exist, not only those that one worships, but a person belongs to a certain religion worshiping certain gods according to their upbringing and tradition.

For examble, westerosi vow to both the old gods and the new; the "southron" might scorn the old tree gods and the Greatjon might call the Seven "wrong" but nowhere any of them denies their existence and power on their "domains".

Stannis is different from the average in that he chose which god to revere, he changed allegiance so to say, by utilitarian criteria: the Seven never answered his prayers so they do not deserve his devotion; R'hillor through Melisandre has served him well.

Stannis does believe in destiny and in Melisandre's visions. He has seen his own future in her fires, after all, and it's a dooming one, being consumed by the cron and the fires... however he sees that as his duty and he's determined to follow it until the end. This says to me that he is a believer. He might not buy into Melisandre's doctrines and teachings about R'hillor (the philosophical system as well as the moral code / code of conduct that constitute the esoteric and secular aspects of a religion) but he does believe in Melisandre's powers and in the truth of her visions.

[Brightstar_]

I'd believe this if he or Melisandre had ever said anything about the Others before getting the letter from the Night's Watch.

If anything this casts some doubt on the validity of Mel's visions, as in why didn't she see this huge threat, the embodiment of "the great Other". It doesn't mean Stannis believes in her God.

[Oafkeeper]

He was an athiest in book 2. By Storm of Swords he's a real believer.

[roxWolfox]

I'd believe this if he or Melisandre had ever said anything about the Others before getting the letter from the Night's Watch.

:agree:

Since it was Davos who brought the matter up with Stannis, not Melisandre, I'm inclined to believe that her lack of 'insight' may have planted at least one seed of doubt. I can't shake the feeling that when he's staring into the fire (as Asha witnessed), he's searching for the visions that appeared so readily when Melisandre was around (with her powders), and failing...and wondering why.

[Bronn Urgandy]

I'd believe this if he or Melisandre had ever said anything about the Others before getting the letter from the Night's Watch.

Err, yeah, all that talk about the approaching darkness means nothing right? Could be an 8000 year old dead myth north of the Wall that no one is really thinking about, or it could be some new fangled crazy shit out of Asshai that no one is really thinking about. Fact is, he acts when it rears its ugly head, sticking to his word and his convictions and proving he is not just hot air.

To the OP; 3 leeches, 3 dead Kings. Maybe he is not entirely convinced, maybe he doesn't want it, but he is not going to sit idly back and do nothing, nor is he going to set the responsibility aside. Simple.

[LordStoneheart]

Err, yeah, all that talk about the approaching darkness means nothing right? Could be an 8000 year old dead myth north of the Wall that no one is really thinking about, or it could be some new fangled crazy shit out of Asshai that no one is really thinking about. Fact is, he acts when it rears its ugly head, sticking to his word and his convictions.

It just means Melisandre has a lucky alibi when they do go to the Wall. "Oh yeah, that's totally what I was talking about this entire time. I just couldn't see it in my fires." Plus, the knowledge of the Others is well-known in Westeros as a fairytale, so you'd think someone on dragonstone would have connected it faster. but no, the "darkness" that Stannis has to fight is always just some vague, unspecified darkness that is really just code for "I want the throne" and never about the actual threat coming.

[Nyrhex]

He does not love me, will never love me, but he will make use of me. Well and good. Melisandre had danced the same dance with Stannis Baratheon, back in the beginning. In truth, the young lord commander and her king had more in common than either one would ever be willing to admit. Stannis had been a younger son living in the shadow of his elder brother, just as Jon Snow, bastard-born, had always been eclipsed by his trueborn sibling, the fallen hero men had called the Young Wolf. Both men were unbelievers by nature, mistrustful, suspicious. The only gods they truly worshiped were honor and duty.

Seems right. There is a difference between trusting that there is a threat to mankind, and trusting that Mel has all the specifics. Stannis has doubts about AAR, about Mel's visions and claims, but he dares not disregard the entire thing based on those doubts when the cost of being wrong is failing the entire world..

“—is one boy! He may be the best boy who ever drew breath and it would not matter. My duty is to the realm.” His hand swept across the

Painted Table. “How many boys dwell in Westeros? How many girls? How many men, how many women? The darkness will devour them all,

she says. The night that never ends. She talks of prophecies . . . a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone . . . she

speaks of signs and swears they point to me. I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her?”

I'd believe this if he or Melisandre had ever said anything about the Others before getting the letter from the Night's Watch.

Have you actually read the books? Something like this?:

You will be my Hand. It is you I want beside me for the battle.”

Another battle will be the end of all of us, thought Davos. Lord Alester saw that much true enough. “Your Grace asked for honest counsel.

In honesty then . . . we lack the strength for another battle against the Lannisters.”

“It is the great battle His Grace is speaking of,” said a woman’s voice, rich with the accents of the east. Melisandre stood at the door in her

red silks and shimmering satins, holding a covered silver dish in her hands. “These little wars are no more than a scuffle of children before

what is to come. The one whose name may not be spoken is marshaling his power, Davos Seaworth, a power fell and evil and strong beyond

measure. Soon comes the cold, and the night that never ends.”

You do realise that the main problem is that before they know of the situation up north, they still do not know where this threat is coming from, or what shape it will take? Even the letter from the NW said nothing about the Others. It talked about Wildlings.

To the five kings,

The king beyond the Wall comes south. He leads a vast host of wildlings.

Mormont sent a raven from the haunted forest. He is under attack. Other birds have come since, with no words.

We fear Mormont slain with all his strength.

The only reason why Stannis goes north is because Davos, like Stannis, does not dare to doubt that Mel is right about the coming threat, and brings him the letter. The main reason why Stannis thought that he needs to sacrifice Edric is the above "Is one boy!" speech. He does not know what shape the threat will have, but he thinks that he will need the power of the entire realm to fight it. When Davos gives him the letter Stannis now has a lead, at least a possible direction of what may possibly be a clue. It is a risk all the same that it's really just Wildlings doing Wildling things, but it connects with what Stannis saw, of the ring of torches on a hill in the forest, and the Haunted Forest seems about right.

Stannis is not talking about getting the throne in ASOS when he talks about Mel's warnings, he talks about defending the realm from the new Long Night. He is fighting two separate wars, one for the throne, and one against the coming darkness, with the assumption that getting the former would aid him to fight the latter. The whole Edric arc was the assumption that on the throne he would be better prepared for what is to come, but it was never considered simply because he wants the throne. That is such a poor reading of the text that I honestly can't see how you got there without setting out with a conclusion and ignoring the text that stood in the way...

[aFeastForDragons]

Davos causes Stannis to have doubt and then convinces him to do the right thing.

[Mithras]

Does any person in the series believe that magic can exist no thanks to any god?