3 Muslims murdered in North Carolina. Hate crime?

[Dicer]

When can we expect moderate atheists to come forward and publicly denounce this act?

Sure, I condemn it. As much as I criticize religion and believers, my policy has been to live and let live. As long as your religion does not make my life hard, I have no issues with anyone believing in imaginary Gods. And I try to be careful even when I criticize, not to make comments that lead to the ostracization of entire communities by giving rise to for ex: Islamophobia or anti-semitism. All the open anti-muslim rallies and tirades/rants about no-go zones and what not is increasingly making Islamophobia okay in civilized society.

Note that the guy is not so much anti-Muslim as anti-religion.

An atheist hate crime, therefore.

There are different kinds of atheists. This guy was a fan of Sam Harris. And guys like Sam Harris and Bill Maher are an embarrassment to most atheists. They single out Islam as something vile and Sam Harris in particular has said some of the most awful things about Islam adding:

Some beliefs are so dangerous that it may be ethical to kill people for believing them

Also

On Wednesday, the father of the two women said one of his daughters had mentioned Hicks’ before and felt he was anti-Muslim. A week ago, he said, she told her family she had “a hateful neighbor.”

“Honest to God, she said, ‘He hates us for what we are and how we look,’” Dr. Mohammad Abu-Salha, who has a psychiatry practice near Chapel Hill, told The News Observer.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2015/02/11/chapel-hill-killings-shine-light-on-particular-tensions-between-islam-and-atheism/

For my part, I am equally critical of all religions. It's becoming clear that all religions are becoming increasingly political and radical and if one is more prone to violence, then I examine the reasons for why that is and it's clear that the arrow points to lack of education/poverty/war and strife mainly supported by western imperialism and support for dictatorships and theocratic regimes in the region. Notice how militant atheists like Harris (Who has a political agenda and is fully supportive of Israel despite the fact that Israel is a Jewish ethnocracy), Dawkins and Maher neglect to mention any of this while continuing to single out and villify Islam. I used to like and admire Dawkins until he started to go off the deep end somewhere.

The lack of coverage about this shooting in the US media tells me something. If it was the other way around and the shooter was muslim and the victims a young white family, the hysteria on Fox news would have been massive with talks of terrorists and jihad and radicalization and what not. Obama should mind his own yard first before lecturing other countries about religious diversity.

Richard Dawkins has decried the shooting in North Carolina that left three young Muslims dead in their family home.

The vocal opponent of organised religion called for condemnation of the massacre on Twitter.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/richard-dawkins-condemns-chapel-hill-shooting-suspected-to-have-been-carried-out-by-antitheist-that-left-three-muslims-dead-10037983.html

Well that's something I suppose.

[Castel]

Interesting to see the finger pointing and "it's those atheists" or "not us". I can't even begin to imagine the shitstorm if this dude has some Harris-style manifesto somewhere.

[Suttree]

The lack of coverage about this shooting in the US media tells me something.

?

It was on the front page of every paper I read today.

[Crixus]

1. The original article I linked to had content speculating on the hate crime aspect, which is why I posed it as a question/possibility in the title, rather than stating it as fact (which would have been fueling rumours, etc. etc. as I have been accused of by some here).

2. If the opposite had occurred i.e. a Muslim killing 3 atheist students, I can guarantee this aspect (hate crime) would have been brought up at the very start. Of course, high-horse-riders will insist otherwise. Congratulations to them.

3. I admire the intellect of many people on here, but imo too often it morphs into arrogant pedantry for the sake of coming off as smarter than everyone else: point scoring, in other words. It's amusing because these people are genuinely clever, so I see the posturing as somewhat... desperate. Overkill, even, if I may dare to suggest so.

Regardless, it seems the murders were indeed spurred, at least in part, by the victims' religion. However, just like it's preposterous to ask all Muslims to apologise for IS, I find it silly and irrelevant to expect all atheists to apologise for this.

And lastly, I echo Suttree: Islam isn't a race, so idiots who commented thusly should maybe get some basic facts straight.

[Dicer]

?

It was on the front page of every paper I read today.

How long after the shooting actually happened and it had been covered by international media first? I read about it on twitter and went online and searched google to know more and the only news site that had it was the local news observer. The news gathered momentum in the US after twitter passed the word around and international media highlighted the murder.

Imagine if it was the other way around? There would have been a crowd of reporters gathered there, covering it live.

Not to mention, a fight over parking? Yeah right.

[Suttree]

How long after the shooting actually happened and it had been covered by international media first? I read about it on twitter and went online and searched google to know more and the only news site that had it was the local news observer. The news gathered momentum in the US after twitter passed the word around and international media highlighted the murder.

Just because you heard a sequnce of events on FB doesn't make it true.

Much of their rage online addressed a perceived double standard in the news media, with posts saying that the killing of three Muslims was not receiving much attention.

In fact, the police did not release the names of the victims or the accused until after 2 a.m. Wednesday; Mr. Hicks turned himself in to sheriff’s deputies in Pittsboro, a few miles away, but it was not clear when. During a court appearance Wednesday, a judge ordered him held without bond. By that point, most major American news organizations had reported the story, but that did not slow the allegations of news media neglect.

Regardless your claim of lack of media coverage is patently false.

Not to mention, a fight over parking? Yeah right.

What is this even in reference to? Both the media and police have acknowledged a possible hate crime link. I was linking to stories on his FB posts straight away this morning.

[Crixus]

One of the victims had allegedly told her father recently that Hicks hated her/them and the way they looked (paraphrase). Seems a reference to her attire (which would identify her as a Muslim). Of course, we don't know how true or in what context this was.

A lot of people here are outraged at the 'underplaying' they feel this incident has got from Western media. I don't think that's the case (obviously it can't be categorised as a hate crime without strong evidence). Let's see how things unfold.

[Dicer]

Just because you heard a sequnce of events on FB doesn't make it true.

I find that quote from the NY times to be hilarious. So you are saying the US media should not cover a shooting until the police release details? And that's how they always do it?

It’s 7:17 p.m. and a woman is sitting on a curb on Summerwalk Circle, face in her hands, sobbing.

The clock ticks to 7:42 p.m. Another woman breaks down after inquiring from police about her daughter and son-in-law.

At 8:05 p.m., a father screams, “It’s been hours! Just tell me if he’s alive!”

At 8:28 p.m., an uncle runs toward officers, begging for information about his nephew.

These were the scenes on Summerwalk Circle in Chapel Hill Tuesday night as police responded to a triple homicide at Finley Forest Condominiums.

Officers responded to a call about gunshots in the complex at 5:11 p.m. They discovered three victims, who were pronounced dead at the scene.

Those family members crying for any information about their loved ones were also muslim by the way.

http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2015/02/3-people-dead-in-chapel-hill-shooting

But of course all this is not important for the Times or CNN or NBC or FOX until the police released details. Because that's how they always operate right? Even though three muslims were murdered at 5.00 PM in the evening and their family members were sitting outside crying, it does not really becomes news until a police statement at 2.00 AM? People on twitter seem to be better journalists.

From the Times article that you quoted:

The Chapel Hill police quickly tried to tamp down the fears, releasing a morning statement that identified parking as the cause of the dispute, without confirming whether the victims had been shot in the head. The police chief, Chris Blue, added, “We understand the concerns about the possibility that this was hate-motivated, and we will exhaust every lead to determine if that is the case.”

In the afternoon, Ripley Rand, the United States attorney for the region, said the shooting appeared to have been “an isolated incident” and “not part of a targeted campaign against Muslims.”

So the police has not even fully finished the investigation but it has IDENTIFIED parking as the cause and we even have a US attorney supporting that even though the investigation is not over.

I love how the NYT is twisting itself into knots to show how it's not a hate crime, that there was a PARKING DISPUTE and hey the police did not release a statement till 2 A.M so stop with the 'Perceived doble standard' act! The shooter had to get arraigned before the NYT or other media had anything to say about it.

Are you seriously saying that there is no double standard in the US media on coverage depending on who the victims and perpetrators are?

Regardless your claim of lack of media coverage is patently false.

It's not news if it's old news is it. Regardless the fact remains that major US news media covered it after twitter highlighted the incident and international media got the story. Again, do you think this would be the case if the perpetrator was muslim and had shot dead three non muslims?

And as the NYT article that you helpfully provided shows, it points out first that it was a parking dispute and maybe, could have been, possibly, might have been, a hate crime and a lot of 'hey the police did not release a statement! That's why we did not cover it!'. Pathetic.

[Roose Seal]

I love how atheists are like "not all atheists!!" over this but when someone commits a terror act "in the name of Islam", they are the first to go "ALL RELIGION IS FILTH"

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Actually, it usually goes:

Christian Fundamentalist: See?! Give your life to Jeebus or you'll be a filthy Muslim terrorist.

Atheist: don't be fucking stupid

[Stubby]

I love how atheists are like "not all atheists!!" over this but when someone commits a terror act "in the name of Islam", they are the first to go "ALL RELIGION IS FILTH"

As an atheist, I will happily condemn this guy's actions.

If it is revealed that he did shoot these 3 fellow humans because he hated religion, that is a blight on disbelief, IMO. I don't like religion, but I will never resort to violence to oppose something. If this guy had somehow rationalised his way to violence based on his disbelief I would be appalled that someone could think that way.

Perhaps it's best to read the whole fucking thread.

[Roose Seal]

Perhaps it's best to read the whole fucking thread.

alright, some atheists.

[Crixus]

Back on topic..

Some more detail on Hicks from neighbours. Seems he was genuinely obsessed with and angry over parking.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/suspect-in-muslim-students-shooting-known-for-outbursts-neighbor-says/ar-AA9hcBi?ocid=mailsignoutmd

[Happy Ent]

Happy Ent’s Internet Etiquette:

1. Don’t try to have a debate on what words really mean. In particular don’t quote definitions to each other. After all there obviously are many conflicting definitions of many interesting terms (racist, feminist, atheist, etc.), and nobody has a monopoly on defining them.

2. Instead, use phrases like: “I find the following nomenclature useful: atheism is …, agnosticism is ….”. Avoid the urge to elevate this nomenclature to a prescription that everybody else (i) must use and (ii) has always used.

[Suttree]

But of course all this is not important for the Times or CNN or NBC or FOX until the police released details. Because that's how they always operate right? Even though three muslims were murdered at 5.00 PM in the evening and their family members were sitting outside crying, it does not really becomes news until a police statement at 2.00 AM? People on twitter seem to be better journalists.

From the Times article that you quoted:

So the police has not even fully finished the investigation but it has IDENTIFIED parking as the cause and we even have a US attorney supporting that even though the investigation is not over.

You are just flat out lying about how things have been represented. Further grouping those news organizations together in that manner shows a fundamental lack of knowledge when it comes to the media landscape in the US.

Look we get this is the tired little song and dance you do in every thread but we can all read.

The police chief, Chris Blue, added, We understand the concerns about the possibility that this was hate-motivated, and we will exhaust every lead to determine if that is the case.

More so the U.S. attorney is absolutely correct in his statement or have you pieced together a conspiracy already about a larger campaign targeting Muslims now? Per usual you've now moved the goal posts tremendously from your original statement. There is a lot of pathetic in your last post, but it sure as hell isn't the NY Times coverage. Not to mention you totally ignore the fact that I was linking stories explicitly quoting his FB posts touching on the anti-Muslim angle.

[DanteGabriel]

The discussion has moved on a bit, but...

Im using a keypad on a touch screen phone, which is basically a guarantee of spelling errors and you're really gonna go grammar nazi on me?
Thanks...

Well, first off, if it hadn't been a repeated misspelling, and if I and E were near each other on a keyboard, I might buy your typo explanation. As such, I advise that if you're going to post a lot about atheists, it would help get your arguments taken a little more seriously if you could spell the word correctly.

And you are using a double standard in your own thinking. You are giving atheists credit for intellectual diversity that you refuse to render to religious believers. That's mainly what I was criticizing in my previous comment.

Since you seem to need to have it spelled out for you, the whole fucking point of my original comment about asking "moderate atheists" to condemn this attack is that there are a lot of ignorant yahoos out there who tar a religion of millions or even billions with the acts of extremists. You said it is stupid to let the actions of one person reflect upon millions, and yet that's what you seem to be doing when you say that all religious people are part of a single group. You betray a pretty stunning ignorance about the amount of diversity that can be present within a religion, a sect, even a single parish.

Get it now?

[Free Northman Reborn]

Wow. Dante

I must admit I had a misperception concerning your stance on some matters. I always took you to be a militant atheist. But from your above post, it would seem that you have quite a bit of sympathy for certain religious classes.

This is not a snide or sarcastic remark. I'm genuinely surprised. And pleasantly so.

EDIT

Although I still don't know why you come across so angry in so many of your posts.

[DanteGabriel]

Wow. Dante

I must admit I had a misperception concerning your stance on some matters. I always took you to be a militant atheist. But from your above post, it would seem that you have quite a bit of sympathy for certain religious classes.

This is not a snide or sarcastic remark. I'm genuinely surprised. And pleasantly so.

EDIT

Although I still don't know why you come across so angry in so many of your posts.

I am a deeply conflicted cultural Catholic. I'd have loved to have fully bought into the angry atheism of my youth but I have accepted that the indoctrination was too strong, and my family's experience with Jesuits in particular has taught me that faith and intellect are not mutually exclusive.

I've defended religious convictions in the past. It's put me in conflict at times with people I otherwise usually agree with. Terra Prime in particular, though one of my favorite posters, has very different views than I do on religion and the Catholic Church especially.

I do detest the cheap, fearful, exclusionary strains of Christianity that have come to overtake this nation, though. I call them McJesusites. I regard those who seek to use the machinery of the state to impose their religious views on others or use their faith as a tool to divide and exclude as possessed of a weak, fearful, sniveling and selfish faith, and they will always have my contempt. I recognize that this description applies all too often to Catholic leaders. Religion is complicated. But I am very encouraged by Pope Francis. I even started a thread about him.

[The King in Black]

Okay, I'm sorry, but what's going on here ? This looks rehash of that " all religious folks responsible for nut jobs " thread.

[TeethGrinder]

"Hate crime" is a genuinely despicable term which implies a certain motive for an act makes it more heinous. It also gives the killer's motive more publicity and than it deserves.

The fact that he killed 3 innocent people is disgusting.