Heresy 151

[Voice]

Was the Young Aegon business planned early on or has GRRM used Rugen's conspiracy to bring Aegon in as a substitute for Dany's invasion since she's got herself stuck in Mereen - a development which certainly wasn't planned in the original synopsis

I was thinking about this as well. I don't have a solid opinion yet, but given where we leave Dany, I think she's very much poised to invade. Given the inexhaustible wealth from Illyrio, and the spider paving the way, I think Aegon's landing has been too subtle to consider an invasion. I think JC's greyscale qualifies as a greater threat to Westeros than Aegon or his sellswords. What I'm wondering is if Aegon's landing begins discreet, and ends up horribly wrong, or horribly threatening to the health of Westeros, will this pave the way for Dany to enter with gates open and everyone waving those secret dragon banners Viserys wanted to believe in...

[Bryaugh]

LOL :agree: There are many starry eyed Sansas for sure - male and female.

Do we have a male character in the books that naive and caught up in romance? That just occurred to me. So many different personalities have been included it almost seems like an oversight by GRRM if there isn't... Tyrion might count. He holds out hope that his family/Shae will love him, until the last.

Does Jorah count?

[Voice]

They may be essentially the same in that it's the same POVs in the same sequence and basically the same plot. I just suspect there may also be significant changes, like Dany not getting her eggs for so long. Just a handful of such changes would be huge for our purposes of analysis.

Here's an interesting realization I had this morning. GRRM doesn't supply enough context in his summary letter at all.

For instance, he refers to Winterfell without ever having defined Winterfell.

He refers to Bran emerging from his coma, but has never told us that Bran was in a coma or why.

Would a good writer make such elementary mistakes? I think not.

So I suspect that GRRM meant for this letter to be read by anyone who had already read the 13 chapters... even though normally it would go the other way around, meaning an editor would look at the summary first and then read the chapters with that summary in mind, to see how well the summary was executed.

This being the case, we can infer that the 13 chapters do define Winterfell and they do explain Bran being in a coma. So this supports the idea that they were basically fairly similar to the ones we know.

Agreed, but Bran's vision takes place in chapter 17. He does however provide context to explain what the Others are, and Dany as the last of the Valyrian dragonlords. So I think the prologue wasn't a part of the 13, nor Dany's first few chapters. He doesn't explain much about Tyrion, despite his prominent role in the letter, and never even mentions he is an imp. So I think the first few Tyrion chapters were included.

My hunch is the original 13 chapters given to his agent began with Bran I and ended with Bran III, the falling dream. House Stark and Winterfell, then, would seem likely as the original centerpiece. Not a big surprise, but I think lends credence to the focus many here in Heresy place upon Stark blood, and Winterfell.

GRRM created an entire world, and people and magics to threaten it, to tell the story he wanted to about House Stark. Just my $0.02.

[Voice]

Does Jorah count?

Maybe. He's a great candidate, but in a weird way, he seems more like Arya in terms of Stark sisters. The lone bear. He also violated the laws of House Stark and the First Men, which Arya has now done as well.

I know I better explain that last comment, so I will. Ned said the Starks do not keep an executioner because he who passed the sentence owes it to the condemned to hear his final words, and of course, swing the sword himself. Arya served as executioner when she poisoned the insurance salesman, she did not hear his final words, nor pass his sentence.

[Matthew.]

I was thinking about this as well. I don't have a solid opinion yet, but given where we leave Dany, I think she's very much poised to invade. Given the inexhaustible wealth from Illyrio, and the spider paving the way, I think Aegon's landing has been too subtle to consider an invasion. I think JC's greyscale qualifies as a greater threat to Westeros than Aegon or his sellswords. What I'm wondering is if Aegon's landing begins discreet, and ends up horribly wrong, or horribly threatening to the health of Westeros, will this pave the way for Dany to enter with gates open and everyone waving those secret dragon banners Viserys wanted to believe in...

Dany's "slayer of lies" visions in HOTU include a blue eyed king that casts no shadow, and a mummer's dragon. I always assumed these would be among the primary conflicts of her Westeros invasion--slaying the fake Azor Ahai, Stannis, and the fake Targaryen, Aegon VI.

I think, as of the end of aDwD, we even have a rough outline for how this would come about, assuming that Stannis wins the Battle of Winterfell, and Aegon gains allies in the south. The logistics of this may seem problematic, but maybe they aren't--unless aDoS is literally going to be 1,200 pages of dealing with the Others, there's still plenty of room for other conflicts to play out.

[Black Crow]

They may be essentially the same in that it's the same POVs in the same sequence and basically the same plot. I just suspect there may also be significant changes, like Dany not getting her eggs for so long. Just a handful of such changes would be huge for our purposes of analysis.

Here's an interesting realization I had this morning. GRRM doesn't supply enough context in his summary letter at all.

For instance, he refers to Winterfell without ever having defined Winterfell.

He refers to Bran emerging from his coma, but has never told us that Bran was in a coma or why.

Would a good writer make such elementary mistakes? I think not.

So I suspect that GRRM meant for this letter to be read by anyone who had already read the 13 chapters... even though normally it would go the other way around, meaning an editor would look at the summary first and then read the chapters with that summary in mind, to see how well the summary was executed.

This being the case, we can infer that the 13 chapters do define Winterfell and they do explain Bran being in a coma. So this supports the idea that they were basically fairly similar to the ones we know.

Well quite, the way I read it is that GRRM basically said here are the first 13 chapters and here are my thoughts on where it goes from here.

[Black Crow]

Agreed, but Bran's vision takes place in chapter 17. He does however provide context to explain what the Others are, and Dany as the last of the Valyrian dragonlords. So I think the prologue wasn't a part of the 13, nor Dany's first few chapters. He doesn't explain much about Tyrion, despite his prominent role in the letter, and never even mentions he is an imp. So I think the first few Tyrion chapters were included.

My hunch is the original 13 chapters given to his agent began with Bran I and ended with Bran III, the falling dream. House Stark and Winterfell, then, would seem likely as the original centerpiece. Not a big surprise, but I think lends credence to the focus many here in Heresy place upon Stark blood, and Winterfell.

GRRM created an entire world, and people and magics to threaten it, to tell the story he wanted to about House Stark. Just my $0.02.

Nah, I'm still with the "first" 13 because closing with Tyrion on the way to the Wall and beginning what appears - according to the synopsis - to be a significant friendship with Jon feels about right for the story he's pitching.

[Black Crow]

Dany's "slayer of lies" visions in HOTU include a blue eyed king that casts no shadow, and a mummer's dragon. I always assumed these would be among the primary conflicts of her Westeros invasion--slaying the fake Azor Ahai, Stannis, and the fake Targaryen, Aegon VI.

I think, as of the end of aDwD, we even have a rough outline for how this would come about, assuming that Stannis wins the Battle of Winterfell, and Aegon gains allies in the south. The logistics of this may seem problematic, but maybe they aren't--unless aDoS is literally going to be 1,200 pages of dealing with the Others, there's still plenty of room for other conflicts to play out.

Yes, and of course one of the arguments I and others have advanced against the full R+L=J theory is the multiplicity of other claimants or would be claimants, and here it is again just for giggles:

First as to Rhaegar; clearly, yes he had swooning factor easily comparable with some pop-stars at the present time, but Lya remember was not at all enamoured of being married off to Trouserless Bob Baratheon for the sake of duty, so when the star of stage screen and MTV smiles at her and offers an all-areas back-stage pass, what is a teenage girl to do, especially as she doesn't know that once he's fathered that "third" on her it'll be a twirl of the moustache and away to organise the next disaster. Remember that Ned Stark commented that it was her temper that got her killed, which suggests that running off with Rhaegar was a b-a-a-a-d mistake and regretted by her afterwards.

Then as to the business of the "marvellous Jon Snow"; really? I think half the trouble here is down to Kit Harrington. Let's look at it logically. If he or anybody else was to promote him as the rightful King of Westeros he needs to get to the back of a very long and very expensive queue:

Aerys pops his clogs in King's Landing, along with various other members of the Royal family, so who's next?

1. First off the blocks is Viserys Targaryen, the King's second son. The first son (ungrateful wretch) has gotten himself killed along with his known children so it seems a straightforward claim. Except he's also the Beggar King and as his sister sadly observes, no dragon.

2. Then there's the sister, again a good claim albeit she's a woman, but she does have dragons so there's no doubting she's Aerys' daughter. Trouble is she's in the land of far far away and by all accounts making a complete hash of things.

3. Fear not, up comes number three, Aegon son of Rhaegar and allegedly not dead after all. Great start, unlike 1 & 2 he's actually made it to Westeros, raised his banners and isn't demonstrably mad. In fact looks pretty good all round. OK too good to be true but we're the readers not the actors and real or not he's a better bet than Cersei Lannister.

4. Yes there is a four, because following all historical precedent if no.3 comes to an untimely end as confidently predicted there's too much at stake not for someone else to turn up proclaiming himself the true Aegon, or for that matter if Aegon could be spirited away from that massacre at King's Landing what of his sister, might she too have gotten away and be available? Never mind Perkin Warbeck, there's scope enough for a whole string of False Dimitri claimants.

5. And so we come to Kit Harrington, sorry Jon Snow, the bastard boy from up north. Sorry, who? Another bloody son of Rhaegar? How many more are there out there?

So after all that, after all the blood and treasure lost in supporting one claimant after another, why go through it all again for a nobody with ice in his veins?

In the light of the 1993 synopsis and the lack of any hint of Jon Snow being the chosen one, I would say that this is actually pretty spot on and that when we eventually learn that Jon Snow is really Lyanna's son and therefore Arya's cousin rather than her brother, some fool may very well ask what about Rhaegar - and get pretty short shrift.

[JNR]

Agreed, but Bran's vision takes place in chapter 17. He does however provide context to explain what the Others are, and Dany as the last of the Valyrian dragonlords. So I think the prologue wasn't a part of the 13, nor Dany's first few chapters. He doesn't explain much about Tyrion, despite his prominent role in the letter, and never even mentions he is an imp. So I think the first few Tyrion chapters were included.

We know for a fact the prologue was written after the first chapter, so yes, I agree it probably wasn't part of the 13.

The reason GRRM has to explain what happens to Bran in the summary is that that isn't explained in the 13. Bran's vision, as you point out, is later in AGOT, and I suspect that was true in 1993 as well.

What seems clear to me is that when GRRM concludes the letter with

I hope you'll find some editors who are as excited about all of this as I am. Feel free to share this letter with anyone who wants to know how the story will go.

He can't have meant "use this letter as your first point of contact"

Because then the editors would be sitting there thinking: But where is Winterfell? Why would anyone retreat there? Why is this Bran person in a coma? What is this Wall thing you mentioned, but never explained? Etc. So he really meant something like

Get the editors to read the 13 chapters first, if you can, even though that's a lot more work than reading a summary, and then give this summary to anybody who wants to know more about the series development.

[Voice]

Dany's "slayer of lies" visions in HOTU include a blue eyed king that casts no shadow, and a mummer's dragon. I always assumed these would be among the primary conflicts of her Westeros invasion--slaying the fake Azor Ahai, Stannis, and the fake Targaryen, Aegon VI.

I think, as of the end of aDwD, we even have a rough outline for how this would come about, assuming that Stannis wins the Battle of Winterfell, and Aegon gains allies in the south. The logistics of this may seem problematic, but maybe they aren't--unless aDoS is literally going to be 1,200 pages of dealing with the Others, there's still plenty of room for other conflicts to play out.

The mummer's dragon comes from Quaithe but it does seem like she sees dragon banners in the HOTU vision. Can't remember off hand.

The blue eyed king, as part of her slaying of lies, does suggest Stannis survives the battle of Winterfell...which lately, I've had by doubts about. I've been leaning toward Stannis' host freezing, Roose's alliance consuming itself, and the Wall falling in WoW. I'm a recent convert to the Wall's fall theory, but now it feels inevitable... Then, as the Others march towards WF, Jon does as well, in aDoS.

[Voice]

Nah, I'm still with the "first" 13 because closing with Tyrion on the way to the Wall and beginning what appears - according to the synopsis - to be a significant friendship with Jon feels about right for the story he's pitching.

Doesn't add up BC. If that were the case, he would have explained the coma dream's context. So it was clearly included. What is also telling, is he wouldn't have had to explain what a Valyrian is to his agent in the letter, nor what the 'others' are. Bran's vision is chapter 17 now, so it makes sense as chapter 13 minus Dany's first few chapters.

[Urrax2]

We know for a fact the prologue was written after the first chapter, ...

How do we know? I don't recall. An SSM?

[wolfmaid7]

I was thinking about this as well. I don't have a solid opinion yet, but given where we leave Dany, I think she's very much poised to invade. Given the inexhaustible wealth from Illyrio, and the spider paving the way, I think Aegon's landing has been too subtle to consider an invasion. I think JC's greyscale qualifies as a greater threat to Westeros than Aegon or his sellswords. What I'm wondering is if Aegon's landing begins discreet, and ends up horribly wrong, or horribly threatening to the health of Westeros, will this pave the way for Dany to enter with gates open and everyone waving those secret dragon banners Viserys wanted to believe in...

Depending on how GRRM chooses to begin we may have a scenario we see Dany gaining the Khalasars or Dany already having gotten the Khalasars seeking to come.She will also need ship and the process of her getting those maybe via Vic will be a few chapters or so.Therefore it will be a while before she comes.The how she comes is another thing,How would the knowledge of Ageon be presented to her and how will respond based on what advice she gets.Anyways it will be a while before she gets to Westeros.

In the mean i think Ageon will have made some type of mark and i could see a situation where we will be called the "Plague bringer" of something if Jon Con spreads the disease. All of which won't matter because your not only going to be fighting men bt loosing against disease.Its the type of shift that occurs when a civlization is about to meet it's end and begin again.Disease,war,famine.....

Maybe. He's a great candidate, but in a weird way, he seems more like Arya in terms of Stark sisters. The lone bear. He also violated the laws of House Stark and the First Men, which Arya has now done as well.

I know I better explain that last comment, so I will. Ned said the Starks do not keep an executioner because he who passed the sentence owes it to the condemned to hear his final words, and of course, swing the sword himself. Arya served as executioner when she poisoned the insurance salesman, she did not hear his final words, nor pass his sentence.

I was going to say something here but danm it,i lost it.

Dany's "slayer of lies" visions in HOTU include a blue eyed king that casts no shadow, and a mummer's dragon. I always assumed these would be among the primary conflicts of her Westeros invasion--slaying the fake Azor Ahai, Stannis, and the fake Targaryen, Aegon VI.

I think, as of the end of aDwD, we even have a rough outline for how this would come about, assuming that Stannis wins the Battle of Winterfell, and Aegon gains allies in the south. The logistics of this may seem problematic, but maybe they aren't--unless aDoS is literally going to be 1,200 pages of dealing with the Others, there's still plenty of room for other conflicts to play out.

Depending where she lands though,she may have to fight her way across.Plus,Dany has no clue what's really going on in Westeros she can't just jump in a dog fight without knowing. Even she's not that stupid.She atlease have to see who can be allies or not.Or she may say frack this and burn everyone.

[JNR]

First as to Rhaegar; clearly, yes he had swooning factor easily comparable with some pop-stars at the present time, but Lya remember was not at all enamoured of being married off to Trouserless Bob Baratheon for the sake of duty, so when the star of stage screen and MTV smiles at her and offers an all-areas back-stage pass, what is a teenage girl to do, especially as she doesn't know that once he's fathered that "third" on her it'll be a twirl of the moustache and away to organise the next disaster.

Well, my goodness, she still knows quite a bit.

She disliked the idea of marrying Robert because he had had a child out of wedlock, and she correctly saw that despite his physical charm and extreme prestige, in future he would probably cheat on her (fail to "keep to one bed").

This tells me two things:

1. Lyanna was capable of extrapolating the probable future based on the current information (and I'd bet my house she was right about Robert cheating on her)

2. Lyanna had no fondness for men she perceived as cheats

Now what else at this point does she know?

She knows Rhaegar is already married, and not just married, but a married father. So Rhaegar would not be a probable cheat, like Robert, but a dead certain cheat, whose behavior would shame not just himself and his wife, but his family in a larger sense, not to mention herself.

She furthermore knows that her father has already approved the marriage to Robert. Since we know from the above that she was good at foreseeing obvious outcomes, we can also see that she knew things would surely explode, politically speaking, if she defied this settled marriage between two Great Houses in favor of running away with a married father who also happened to be the crown prince.

So when you ask

what is a teenage girl to do

I really think you're underestimating Lyanna.

[Matthew.]

In the light of the 1993 synopsis and the lack of any hint of Jon Snow being the chosen one, I would say that this is actually pretty spot on and that when we eventually learn that Jon Snow is really Lyanna's son and therefore Arya's cousin rather than her brother, some fool may very well ask what about Rhaegar - and get pretty short shrift.

I'm still not sold on this mystery having no purpose, other than to remove an impediment to a romance that has seemingly been abandoned. As far as magic is concerned, Targaryen blood matters.

The mummer's dragon comes from Quaithe but it does seem like she sees dragon banners in the HOTU vision. Can't remember off hand.

Dany discusses some of her visions with Jorah, and she identifies the cloth dragon from her slayer of lies set as being a part of mummer shows.

It just makes sense to me that the three lies she must slay - blue eyed king with a red sword and no shadow, mummer's dragon, and stone beast breathing shadow fire - are all lies relative to her 'truth:' true Azor Ahai, true Targaryen, true dragons awakened from stone.

Edit: To further clarify, I don't buy into notions of Dany being "too obvious," or a red herring; I think this is meant to be a case where the reader knows more than the characters, so that we can know just how tragically misguided Melisandre is, especially now that there's nobody left at the Wall to keep her in check.

[JNR]

How do we know? I don't recall. An SSM?

An interview, yes.

The first scene that came to me was chapter one of the first book, the chapter where they find the direwolf pups. That just came to me out of nowhere. I was actually at work on a different novel, and suddenly I saw that scene. It didn’t belong in the novel I was writing, but it came to me so vividly that I had to sit down and write it, and by the time I did, it led to a second chapter, and the second chapter was the Catelyn chapter where Ned has just come back and she gets the message that the king is dead.

[Voice]

Nah, I'm still with the "first" 13 because closing with Tyrion on the way to the Wall and beginning what appears - according to the synopsis - to be a significant friendship with Jon feels about right for the story he's pitching.

Doesn't add up BC. If that were the case, he would have explained the coma dream's context. So it was clearly included. What is also telling, is he wouldn't have had to explain what a Valyrian is to his agent in the letter, nor what the 'others' are. Bran's vision is chapter 17 now, so it makes sense as chapter 13 minus Dany's first few chapters.

Just reread the letter, and yeah, I was wrong....

Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again.

There's no need to state this if it were included in the original 13 chapters. In fact, letting his agent know that "Bran will come out of his coma" only further proves that the 13 left off with him slipping into a coma. Hats off BC, but I'm sure this will be the last time I'm wrong about anything, ever. LOL

I still think my original point stands, not out of pride, but because of the focus of House Stark in the letter, the first 13 chapters, and the finished novels. GRRM wants to tell the Stark story, and planetos, the magics woven into it, and threats to the realms of men, all have been formulated in order for him to tell the story of Stark. I am admittedly biased towards First Men mythology and history, as my name suggests lol, but I think the text bears this out as well.

[Voice]

Depending on how GRRM chooses to begin we may have a scenario we see Dany gaining the Khalasars or Dany already having gotten the Khalasars seeking to come.She will also need ship and the process of her getting those maybe via Vic will be a few chapters or so.Therefore it will be a while before she comes.The how she comes is another thing,How would the knowledge of Ageon be presented to her and how will respond based on what advice she gets.Anyways it will be a while before she gets to Westeros.

She could quell Meereen by offering Yunkai terms and withdrawing immediately for Westeros. She seems to have gotten the hint in that last chapter. That would leave her unsullied largely unsullied and a nice fast fleet with which to flee for home. I suspect she's already touched the light in this chapter, and she passed beneath the shadow when Drogon flew over her into Daznak's pit.

That being said.... :devil:

When finally the Seven Kingdoms behold the beautiful Queen's Landing, she will find the realm with a very well-hidden and misunderstood illness. She will succumb to it, as will her dragons.

It ain't called greyscale for nothin'. And it will prove to be the biological doom of Valyria. Drogon and his asexual siblings will become stone dragons. /thread lol

No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning.

Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

All these are threats to her dragons. The last will prove the fatal blow.

I was going to say something here but danm it,i lost it.

Was it this: :bowdown: lol just kidding :D

[Black Crow]

I still think my original point stands, not out of pride, but because of the focus of House Stark in the letter, the first 13 chapters, and the finished novels. GRRM wants to tell the Stark story, and planetos, the magics woven into it, and threats to the realms of men, all have been formulated in order for him to tell the story of Stark. I am admittedly biased towards First Men mythology and history, as my name suggests lol, but I think the text bears this out as well.

Well there at least we can agree because what comes over very clearly from both the early chapters and the synopsis is that this is all about the Starks and their bitter rivals the Lannisters, set against a background of civil war and invasion. Other than one of those invasions being led by the Last Dragonlord its not a story about the fall and rise of the Targaryens. Whatever his ultimate destiny Jon Snow is and always remain a Stark, a bastard son of Winterfell.

[Voice]

Dany discusses some of her visions with Jorah, and she identifies the cloth dragon from her slayer of lies set as being a part of mummer shows.

It just makes sense to me that the three lies she must slay - blue eyed king with a red sword and no shadow, mummer's dragon, and stone beast breathing shadow fire - are all lies relative to her 'truth:' true Azor Ahai, true Targaryen, true dragons awakened from stone.

Edit: To further clarify, I don't buy into notions of Dany being "too obvious," or a red herring; I think this is meant to be a case where the reader knows more than the characters, so that we can know just how tragically misguided Melisandre is, especially now that there's nobody left at the Wall to keep her in check.

Again, great points Matthew. I wasn't dismissing Aegon as a lie she must slay. Quite to the contrary, I agree his subversion will prove to be her greatest threat, rather than the happy marriage Tyrion conjured up in his mind in order to get him to go west. Tyrion knew he was playing him false. It's one more piece of intel he can share with Dany that no one else can.

As to the second paragraph. I fully agree. They are the relevant obstacles to her ascension and her truth. I don't know that her truth includes herself as Azor Ahai, at least from her own POV. There is her Trident dream, so it may filter in at some point. As of this moment, she doesn't seem familiar with the Battle for Dawn or the Others. She knows of the Wall, and the pride with which Viserys spoke of it. I'm curious if she's heard stories of the Long Night and the Wall's origin. It would seem likely, but as of yet, unwritten. She's heard the term the prince that was promised from her own brother in HOTU, but she is not yet aware of the prophecy itself, as far as I can remember...

As to the edit, I play devil's advocate with Dany a lot. One moment I'm calling her a red herring, the next I'm talking about her as the only source for the central theme and title of the series - which she is, in my opinion. When I talk of her, I have far less conviction than I do when speaking of FM/Starkism because that's where my brain is. Dany is still an anomaly. But I blame her for my lack of conviction. She keeps going east to go west and it hasn't made much sense yet. I'm with Ser Barristan, though she likes to play at being a fickle young girl when toying with her adversaries, in reality, she really is one. Or at least she has been one to this point.