Heresy 151

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that is the only occurrence.

Well, I think BC recently mentioned it happening more than once. Otherwise, I would have agreed with you. Then I also noticed a seemingly Dany-independent paragraph in one of her POV chapters, and wondered if it would qualify... (it might not)... so thought I'd ask if anyone else had noticed others instances, and if so, where?

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

victarion in his burning hand chapter and dany when magi was doing that thing to bring Drogo back in the first book. I only come on here when im at work (shhh) so i dont have any exact quotes for you but im sure someone will post it soon

[Voice]

Oh you know me.I'm especially drawn to the bit about the "Others watching with cold dead eyes." Mattew and i were talking about this a ew Heresies a back the stressing of the author through chracters that these "blue eyes are seeing" which lends credence to the idea that somebody is watching through them and it aint Michael Jackson.

Regardless of what it is, at least we know it isn't as creepy as Michael Jackson watching :D

I am of the mind wights are mindless, and serve as walking surveillance cameras for the blue eyed puppetmaster(s), a blue eyed version of the weirnet (wightnet?), so there, we agree...

I know in the past you preferred Cold winds/mist being the the force behind them, rather than Others/ww's. Have you come around?

The Others, in my view of them, serve the same purpose: self-aware puppetmasters watching through the dead eyes of wights. I think this is how the Waymar/Will trap was pulled off, and why Mormont's bedchamber was sought out in castle black. There is also the level of organization with which they attacked the Fist, which seems a little too expertly orchestrated to merely be a chain of command.

I default to my hive-mind hypothesis for wights. No self-respecting Other would dare venture forth without a few wight thralls. They obey without fear of harm or defeat (like unsullied), are a renewable resource on the battlefield, and can withstand higher temperatures (as long as the higher temp isn't fire). Add to that a means of far-sight on par with greenseers, and you have yourself some serious intel-gathering capabilities.

[JNR]

Regardless of what it is, at least we know it isn't as creepy as Michael Jackson watching :D

Of course, Michael Jackson only acted like he was going to sacrifice the baby.

[Voice]

Of course, Michael Jackson only acted like he was going to sacrifice the baby.

And there's nothing wrong with sharing a bed with Craster's... No man should be condemned for platonic friendships with little boys.

[wolfmaid7]

Regardless of what it is, at least we know it isn't as creepy as Michael Jackson watching :D

I am of the mind wights are mindless, and serve as walking surveillance cameras for the blue eyed puppetmaster(s), a blue eyed version of the weirnet (wightnet?), so there, we agree...

I know in the past you preferred Cold winds/mist being the the force behind them, rather than Others/ww's. Have you come around?

The Others, in my view of them, serve the same purpose: self-aware puppetmasters watching through the dead eyes of wights. I think this is how the Waymar/Will trap was pulled off, and why Mormont's bedchamber was sought out in castle black. There is also the level of organization with which they attacked the Fist, which seems a little too expertly orchestrated to merely be a chain of command.

I default to my hive-mind hypothesis for wights. No self-respecting Other would dare venture forth without a few wight thralls. They obey without fear of harm or defeat (like unsullied), are a renewable resource on the battlefield, and can withstand higher temperatures (as long as the higher temp isn't fire). Add to that a means of far-sight on par with greenseers, and you have yourself some serious intel-gathering capabilities.

You misunderstand my meaning or should i say my theory. I don't think the Cold windss/mists "are" the force behind the Wights. I believe the cold winds/mists are just vehicles by which what is controlling them moves AKA another Greenseer sect(call them the Others if you like) similar to BR and his Greenseeing collective.So to clarify i'm not saying the winds and mists are themselves responsible.

So i don't think the Wights are "mindless" only that there is another mind holding them enthrall like Greenseers and Skinchangers hold their familiars in thrall.

Also,consider this with respect to the Wights behavior in the case of Mormont.

For them to have gone to Mormont's chamber indicates intelligence ,they kept themselves concealed,quietly took out anyone that would have alerted anyone to their presence (It should be noted by the way how Mormont's noise crow didn't make a peep "until" Jon got in the room).

I've pointed this out before- a few times but the Wights outside the hut where Sam was attacked was a mass of hundreds consisting of wildlings and members of the Night'w watch. Yet, of all the Wights that could have come into the room it was Small Paul.The person who saved Sam's life on the march from the Fist,encouraged him not to fall behind.

Small's Paul's entrance accomplished and showed somethings things .It caused Sam to hesitate and appeal to him.This actually went on a bit before Sam attacked him thinking he was going for Gilly.

It also indicated that Sam and Gilly were being watched and knowledge of this was being utilized to send in the right Wight among anyone of the hundreds that were outside.

Small Paul was the right Wight for that night.

Of course, Michael Jackson only acted like he was going to sacrifice the baby.

Hehe

[MaesterSam]

Can someone please remind me here of Ashara Dayne's whereabouts at the time of Lyanna's abduction? Were the two together and if so what of the possibility that she was the actual target and Lyanna was simply swept up in the rush.?

I don't think we've been told specifically, but she most likely would have been on Dragonstone. She was Elia's handmaiden, and Elia was definitely on Dragonstone as per the WB passage below (I wonder what caused Elia to go to KL after the outbreak of the rebellion?). At Harrenhal, Ashara was specifically said to be there with Elia, so unless she got fired in the weeks following the tourney, Dragonstone is my bet.

The False Spring of 281 AC lasted less than two turns. As the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance. On the last day of the year, snow began to fall upon King’s Landing, and a crust of ice formed atop the Blackwater Rush. The snowfall continued off and on for the best part of a fortnight, by which time the Blackwater was hard frozen, and icicles draped the roofs and gutters of every tower in the city.

As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon’s turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

Of course at some point, Elia moved to KL. Did Ashara go with her? Or is that when she returned to Starfall? We only know that by the time Ned arrived, she was already there. (Was she alive? Did they actually spend time together and then she killed herself? Or was she already dead when he arrived?)

ETA: It just occurred to me that if Elia was safe on Dragonstone when the rebellion began, and this is where Aegon had just been born... and then she was ordered back to KL, a less safe location... it actually would have made a lot of sense to leave the newborn heir safely on Dragonstone and bring along some other baby. I never liked the Varys baby switching theories, but this would have been a reasonable switch made weeks or months earlier, for the protection of the heir and the dynasty. And nobody in KL would have seen baby Aegon before, so they had no idea what he looked like.

In other words... what if (f)Aegon is real? Have we ever really considered the possibility?

Well, my goodness, she still knows quite a bit.

She disliked the idea of marrying Robert because he had had a child out of wedlock, and she correctly saw that despite his physical charm and extreme prestige, in future he would probably cheat on her (fail to "keep to one bed").

This tells me two things:

1. Lyanna was capable of extrapolating the probable future based on the current information (and I'd bet my house she was right about Robert cheating on her)

2. Lyanna had no fondness for men she perceived as cheats

Now what else at this point does she know?

She knows Rhaegar is already married, and not just married, but a married father. So Rhaegar would not be a probable cheat, like Robert, but a dead certain cheat, whose behavior would shame not just himself and his wife, but his family in a larger sense, not to mention herself.

She furthermore knows that her father has already approved the marriage to Robert. Since we know from the above that she was good at foreseeing obvious outcomes, we can also see that she knew things would surely explode, politically speaking, if she defied this settled marriage between two Great Houses in favor of running away with a married father who also happened to be the crown prince.

So when you ask

I really think you're underestimating Lyanna.

:agree: :agree: :agree: This is my biggest problem with the RLJ theory: nobody has offered, IMO, a reasonable explanation for why a smart, confident, independent spirit like Lyanna would run off with a married father of two who is also 10 years older than her. If she wanted to get laid and have babies, Robert would have been more than happy to accommodate her. Without tearing apart her family and causing a massive civil war. And remember Robert was said to have also been very attractive in his youth, and while perhaps not faithful I do believe he would have been good to Ned's little sister. So it's not like they were expecting her to marry some loser, or an old fat guy, or somebody cruel. While not the man of her dreams, Robert wasn't exactly a match to run away from.

Most importantly, Lyanna was smart, and old enough to understand that actions have consequences. There was NO WAY running away with the crown prince was going to work out well, and she had to know that. So why did she do it? Why would she? And then stay where he put her for over a year as the realm falls apart and her father and brother are killed? Why??

ETA: I'm not saying I don't believe in RLJ, necessarily. Only that the idea of them running away together because they were in love doesn't fit either of their characters, at all.

[Voice]

You misunderstand my meaning or should i say my theory. I don't think the Cold windss/mists "are" the force behind the Wights. I believe the cold winds/mists are just vehicles by which what is controlling them moves AKA another Greenseer sect(call them the Others if you like) similar to BR and his Greenseeing collective.So to clarify i'm not saying the winds and mists are themselves responsible.

My mistake. The "what is controlling them" part for me is the Others, and the "Cold" as a vehicle is cool, but I lean towards Ice Spiders as their mode of transport.

I'm beginning to see the Cold winds/mists more like terraforming. As they blow, the colder it gets. The colder it gets, the more things freeze and snow falls. The more the land, water, trees, etc are frozen, the more places the Others can tread. We're told ww's "slide forward on silent feet" and "leave no tracks in the snow." It is my thinking that they can only tread upon that which is frozen. So as the cold winds blow, the white mists rise, and provide a climate they are comfortable in.

I mentioned this a heresy or two ago, but rather than a vehicle, I'm seeing it more like a frozen spider web of frozen rivers, snow banks, and crystallized earth, spreading ever southward (or perhaps, more accurately, growing ever outward from Winterfell). This frozen web is the missing element as to why we've not yet seen the true Others and their ice spiders. My thinking is that once the web is large enough, and the air cold enough, and the sky black enough, they will be seen in earnest.

So i don't think the Wights are "mindless" only that there is another mind holding them enthrall like Greenseers and Skinchangers hold their familiars in thrall.

Also,consider this with respect to the Wights behavior in the case of Mormont.

For them to have gone to Mormont's chamber indicates intelligence ,they kept themselves concealed,quietly took out anyone that would have alerted anyone to their presence (It should be noted by the way how Mormont's noise crow didn't make a peep "until" Jon got in the room).

I've pointed this out before- a few times but the Wights outside the hut where Sam was attacked was a mass of hundreds consisting of wildlings and members of the Night'w watch. Yet, of all the Wights that could have come into the room it was Small Paul.The person who saved Sam's life on the march from the Fist,encouraged him not to fall behind.

Small's Paul's entrance accomplished and showed somethings things .It caused Sam to hesitate and appeal to him.This actually went on a bit before Sam attacked him thinking he was going for Gilly.

It also indicated that Sam and Gilly were being watched and knowledge of this was being utilized to send in the right Wight among anyone of the hundreds that were outside.

Small Paul was the right Wight for that night.

Indeed. Though of themselves, yeah I still think they're mindless. I'm with you though on the alien consciousness behind them, driving their actions. When I say "mindless" I just mean I don't think they retain anything of their former selves/memories/mental capacity (unlike the un-Characters in the series). I like the right wight for that night idea for sure :) plus it rhymes, so it must be true.

[King Tyrion XX]

Well, I think BC recently mentioned it happening more than once. Otherwise, I would have agreed with you. Then I also noticed a seemingly Dany-independent paragraph in one of her POV chapters, and wondered if it would qualify... (it might not)... so thought I'd ask if anyone else had noticed others instances, and if so, where?

I'd have to read the Dany paragraph. I know awhile back somebody thought the end of Catelyns POV in the Red Wedding chapter switched from 3rd person at the end. But that turned out to not be the case.

Oh that Dany part. Thanks SerWalter.

[King Tyrion XX]

You misunderstand my meaning or should i say my theory. I don't think the Cold windss/mists "are" the force behind the Wights. I believe the cold winds/mists are just vehicles by which what is controlling them moves AKA another Greenseer sect(call them the Others if you like) similar to BR and his Greenseeing collective.So to clarify i'm not saying the winds and mists are themselves responsible.

So i don't think the Wights are "mindless" only that there is another mind holding them enthrall like Greenseers and Skinchangers hold their familiars in thrall.

Also,consider this with respect to the Wights behavior in the case of Mormont.

For them to have gone to Mormont's chamber indicates intelligence ,they kept themselves concealed,quietly took out anyone that would have alerted anyone to their presence (It should be noted by the way how Mormont's noise crow didn't make a peep "until" Jon got in the room).

I've pointed this out before- a few times but the Wights outside the hut where Sam was attacked was a mass of hundreds consisting of wildlings and members of the Night'w watch. Yet, of all the Wights that could have come into the room it was Small Paul.The person who saved Sam's life on the march from the Fist,encouraged him not to fall behind.

Small's Paul's entrance accomplished and showed somethings things .It caused Sam to hesitate and appeal to him.This actually went on a bit before Sam attacked him thinking he was going for Gilly.

It also indicated that Sam and Gilly were being watched and knowledge of this was being utilized to send in the right Wight among anyone of the hundreds that were outside.

Small Paul was the right Wight for that night.

Hehe

Heeeheee

[wolfmaid7]

I don't think we've been told specifically, but she most likely would have been on Dragonstone. She was Elia's handmaiden, and Elia was definitely on Dragonstone as per the WB passage below (I wonder what caused Elia to go to KL after the outbreak of the rebellion?). At Harrenhal, Ashara was specifically said to be there with Elia, so unless she got fired in the weeks following the tourney, Dragonstone is my bet.

Of course at some point, Elia moved to KL. Did Ashara go with her? Or is that when she returned to Starfall? We only know that by the time Ned arrived, she was already there. (Was she alive? Did they actually spend time together and then she killed herself? Or was she already dead when he arrived?)

ETA: It just occurred to me that if Elia was safe on Dragonstone when the rebellion began, and this is where Aegon had just been born... and then she was ordered back to KL, a less safe location... it actually would have made a lot of sense to leave the newborn heir safely on Dragonstone and bring along some other baby. I never liked the Varys baby switching theories, but this would have been a reasonable switch made weeks or months earlier, for the protection of the heir and the dynasty. And nobody in KL would have seen baby Aegon before, so they had no idea what he looked like.

In other words... what if (f)Aegon is real? Have we ever really considered the possibility?

:agree: :agree: :agree: This is my biggest problem with the RLJ theory: nobody has offered, IMO, a reasonable explanation for why a smart, confident, independent spirit like Lyanna would run off with a married father of two who is also 10 years older than her. If she wanted to get laid and have babies, Robert would have been more than happy to accommodate her. Without tearing apart her family and causing a massive civil war. And remember Robert was said to have also been very attractive in his youth, and while perhaps not faithful I do believe he would have been good to Ned's little sister. So it's not like they were expecting her to marry some loser, or an old fat guy, or somebody cruel. While not the man of her dreams, Robert wasn't exactly a match to run away from.

Most importantly, Lyanna was smart, and old enough to understand that actions have consequences. There was NO WAY running away with the crown prince was going to work out well, and she had to know that. So why did she do it? Why would she? And then stay where he put her for over a year as the realm falls apart and her father and brother are killed? Why??

ETA: I'm not saying I don't believe in RLJ, necessarily. Only that the idea of them running away together because they were in love doesn't fit either of their characters, at all.

On the "Curious case of the Dragon Prince and the Winter Rose" i posted a query to something that didn't make sense and honestly i can't find it in the text.I also posted this on the RLJ thread and i didn't get an answer actually but here goes.Keep in mind this when i'm going through this whole "shebang" Elia,sickly Elia was bedridden approximately 6mths after Rhaenys was born and Aegon's birth almost killed her.

I had thought Ageon was born on DS but i can't find the text supporting that,but the Wiki puts his birth place at KingsLanding 282/283.

Rhaegar was said not to have been on Dragonstone with Elia and his young son Aegon(WB puts him at the Riverlands abductng Lyanna).So i'm going to go with the Wiki that Aegon was born in KL

then somehow this sickly woman traveled to Dragonstone,then Aerys sent and had her brought back to Kingslanding?

When it comes to Lya's actions i'm going to go with GRRM on this one:

http://entertainment.time.com/2011/04/18/grrm-interview-part-2-fantasy-and-history/see the truths that will be laid before you."

“And then there are some things that are just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy.”

I was emphatically told that Rhaegar was no stable boy,she ran away with someone higher than her which was punch.

I myself think and this is my other 50% camp that it is twofold that that while she did "run off with a prince" nothing romantic was behind that on either her or Rhaegar's part

[Eira Seren]

As usual, you are wise, sir. We know for a fact that those 13 chapters were substantially different.

How do we know? Because of the intrepid Reddit bloke who went to the Cushing library and discovered that in an early draft,

How many more differences might there be? It's hard to say, but that's a big one... and notice it matches the summary, which has Dany getting the eggs much later on (Drogo is dead) and in a totally different way.

It's tempting to try to extrapolate GRRM's current thinking from his 1993 thinking, but with a few notable exceptions (for instance, he seems to have known what the phrase "A Song of Ice and Fire" meant or it wouldn't be the series title) it's a really risky business.

Yeah that's an interesting choice, it's almost like he thought he needed to have her and the dragon eggs go through character formation together, perhaps like the dire wolves are to the young starks, they are essential to dany's character formation. I've always suspected a sort of skinchanging connection, though have only found hints to support it, not nearly as blatant as the stark connection to the direwolves

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Yeah that's an interesting choice, it's almost like he thought he needed to have her and the dragon eggs go through character formation together, perhaps like the dire wolves are to the young starks, they are essential to dany's character formation. I've always suspected a sort of skinchanging connection, though have only found hints to support it, not nearly as blatant as the stark connection to the direwolves

That's pretty interesting, isn't it? In many ways, I've always found the magic in Dany's storyline to be much more obvious, more explicit, than it is in the Stark children's chapters. I mean... bloodmagic, dragons, funeral-pyres-that-don't-burn-the-Targ, HotU visions, etc. It's all right in your face. But the human-beast bonding... that internal, relational magic... really is much more developed among the Starks with their wolves, whereas it is quite subtle/underplayed when it comes to Dany and her dragons in Essos.

[wolfmaid7]

On the topic of Dany and sknchanging abilities,from last thread:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/124536-heresy-150-and-more-fallout-from-that-letter/page-19

I found an interesting bit of tidbit form the WB.I hoped the post would have been picked up in discussion atlease that point but no go.Anyways from the WB

According to the definition a "Skinchanger is a person who can not only communicate with beasts, but can control them by having their spirits mingle WB,pg 6).

Skinchanging it seems isn't so superficial as "wearing skins" it is spirits of familiar and proxies mingling spirits.So by this definition Dany is a Skinchanger.

[King Tyrion XX]

WB puts Rhaegar in Riverlands abducting Lyanna? If there were any suspicions we now know for sure there are fan fiction parts.

[King Tyrion XX]

On the "Curious case of the Dragon Prince and the Winter Rose" i posted a query to something that didn't make sense and honestly i can't find it in the text.I also posted this on the RLJ thread and i didn't get an answer actually but here goes.Keep in mind this when i'm going through this whole "shebang" Elia,sickly Elia was bedridden approximately 6mths after Rhaenys was born and Aegon's birth almost killed her.

I had thought Ageon was born on DS but i can't find the text supporting that,but the Wiki puts his birth place at KingsLanding 282/283.

Rhaegar was said not to have been on Dragonstone with Elia and his young son Aegon(WB puts him at the Riverlands abductng Lyanna).So i'm going to go with the Wiki that Aegon was born in KL

then somehow this sickly woman traveled to Dragonstone,then Aerys sent and had her brought back to Kingslanding?

When it comes to Lya's actions i'm going to go with GRRM on this one:

http://entertainment.time.com/2011/04/18/grrm-interview-part-2-fantasy-and-history/see the truths that will be laid before you."

And then there are some things that are just dont square with history. In some sense Im trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when theres an arranged marriage, the girl doesnt want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didnt. There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. Thats how you did it. It wasnt questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldnt run off with the stable boy.

I was emphatically told that Rhaegar was no stable boy,she ran away with someone higher than her which was punch.

I myself think and this is my other 50% camp that it is twofold that that while she did "run off with a prince" nothing romantic was behind that on either her or Rhaegar's part

It could be that Rhaegar only wanted Lyanna for intel. Too bad for him the Starks forgot everything.

[Black Crow]

Well, I think BC recently mentioned it happening more than once. Otherwise, I would have agreed with you. Then I also noticed a seemingly Dany-independent paragraph in one of her POV chapters, and wondered if it would qualify... (it might not)... so thought I'd ask if anyone else had noticed others instances, and if so, where?

Its the only one I recall. I've just re-checked the last three Dany chapters without finding anything. There are a couple of lines where Jorah does or sees something but its not really a deviation from Dany's POV in the least comparable with that Victarion one.

There the significance of the shift certainly seemed to signify his death as a man and rebirth as fire made flesh but Dany's experience seems different and I rather suspect that GRRMs insistence that it was a one time magical event simply means just that; it happened because he needed it to happen and there's no engineered explanation underlying the magic.

Victarion's transformation nearly 20 years down the line appears to be a different, albeit still magic, process which he's thought through more deeply.

[wolfmaid7]

WB puts Rhaegar in Riverlands abducting Lyanna? If there were any suspicions we now know for sure there are fan fiction parts.

Pgs 127 .He was actually 10 leagues from Harrenhal when "he fell upon" Lyanna and correction according to the WB Rheagar's journey was leading him back yo the Riverlands.

[Black Crow]

I'm not saying I don't believe in RLJ, necessarily. Only that the idea of them running away together because they were in love doesn't fit either of their characters, at all.

I agree entirely, which is why as I responded to JNR, that piece I wrote was intended as satire - went down a bomb in a certain other place.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

WB puts Rhaegar in Riverlands abducting Lyanna? If there were any suspicions we now know for sure there are fan fiction parts.

That whole chapter in the world book actually comes from Mr. Martin himself. This was brought to our attention a few months back when the book was fresh off the shelf.