Valyrian Fork Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 So anyway (fresh post) how over-discussed have RLJ alternatives been here? Because I'd like to discuss my pet theory that Jon is Aegon. Elia's Aegon. This has got to be trolling, but I'll bite: why does Jon look like a Stark if that's true? Doesn't it muck with Ned's POV chapters completely, since we see him remembering the smashed baby head and being really pissed at Robert (and the Lannisters/Mountain) over the incident, or are you assuming he doesn't actually know Jon is Aegon? Does that mean (f)Aegon is Jon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 This has got to be trolling, but I'll bite: why does Jon look like a Stark if that's true? Doesn't it muck with Ned's POV chapters completely, since we see him remembering the smashed baby head and being really pissed at Robert (and the Lannisters/Mountain) over the incident, or are you assuming he doesn't actually know Jon is Aegon? Does that mean (f)Aegon is Jon? I'm not a troll. It's super late here but I'll put together a coherent statement over the next few days, and yes I can answer most of your questions with canon, and some with a small leap of logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 So anyway (fresh post) how over-discussed have RLJ alternatives been here? Because I'd like to discuss my pet theory that Jon is Aegon. Elia's Aegon. Hey there Weasel, go for it. No one here, I think, is opposed to RLJ alternatives. It hasn't been a dominant topic in these parts, but it has come up from time to time. Jon's parentage is discussed often, though in a different way from RLJ you'll find. Much of our discussion here focuses on the Wall and the North, Stark blood, and the Others. And while there is a healthy respect for Targaryenism, it's far from central to most theories you'll hear tossed around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tyrion XX Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 There is a gang mentality for sure. As soon as a "big name" singles someone out, somehow several more show up, even if they haven't participated in the thread before. Took me a very long while to choose my responses carefully. But you know what, I want to talk about my ideas and get some input and feedback, and I want to hear other people's ideas, damnit. I'm sick of measuring my words. As for the mocking, I've had a few of those same people start threads with the express purpose of mocking me personally, as well as them linking to posts where they've mocked me before. Eff 'em.Amen. Heresy is the perfect place for discussion and further developing your ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I heard this was a great place for discussions of a heretical nature! I am the author of the linked reddit post. Welcome aboard. I'm sure you'll fit right in; that was a splendid piece of work. Nah, it's about time for some regression to the mean. I say we get Winds within a year. :cheers: Speaking for someone who will occasionally wander into their prayer circles and usually end up suffering a decent amount of stones thrown my way (in the form of derision and dismissal) I don't think it hurts to give them a friendly tweak on the nose every once in a while. Yes, I think what typically happens in Heresy is to that sort of thing as Silly String is to napalm. It's commonplace in General to find blanket statements that if you don't believe X, you must be either a troll, in willful denial of reality, stupid, short of reading comprehension, or simply ignorant... the last of which is particularly ironic, given how many people in General endorse and use the Ignore feature. Still, we could probably do a better job. Calm confidence in eventual victory is my personal goal. I expect things will get very uncomfortable for the Comic Sans Brigade in days to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 Good morning,.. and welcome to all the newcomers. So far as a certain other thread goes, lets just stick to the local house rules. If you want to discuss the validity of the proposition that R+L=J or the consequences of it feel free to do so here and leave the faithful to their own devices. This thread has succeeded so well over a very long time because its not devoted to a single issue, but is open to new ideas on a whole raft of more or less inter-related topics. So please, therefore, continue with that innovation, tolerance and good humour and instead of grumbling about another thread, concentrate on our own and its multi-faceted take on GRRM's world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 And what of the phrases 'The north remembers' and 'Winter is coming' and 'There must always be a Stark in Winterfell'?The north remembers winter is coming and there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Possibly a piece of a larger agreement or foretelling?What must have been the thoughts of those who survived the Long Night when winter came around again? Downright scary.--In the world book it is said that the Boltons, aka Red Kings, burned down Winterfell in the past. Was there any surviving Starks at those times? If not, what were the consequences of no Stark in Winterfell during such times? Obviously the Starks were not wiped out when Winterfell burned, yet how did they survive? The crypts seem like a good place to stay during bad times.To add on a little more pondering...The Starks and Boltons feud goes back to the Long Night, so I wonder if the confrontation between the two families had any part of the Long Night. Its an interesting point which I don't think has been properly explored before and I wonder whether the Stark in Winterfell business was simply a direct reaction to that earlier burning of the castle by the Boltons, and that originally it simply meant that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell to prevent anything like that happening again. Hypothetically, [since we don't know the circumstances] having Winterfell sacked and burned while its lord was off harrying the Barrow Kings or whoever would not just have been a personal affront but a shrewd blow to Stark power; just as the present burning has been. In other words the Stark in Winterfell business may simply be business rather than something mystical - which isn't to say it hasn't become an article of faith over the generations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 As usual, you are wise, sir. We know for a fact that those 13 chapters were substantially different. How do we know? Because of the intrepid Reddit bloke who went to the Cushing library and discovered that in an early draft, How many more differences might there be? It's hard to say, but that's a big one... and notice it matches the summary, which has Dany getting the eggs much later on (Drogo is dead) and in a totally different way. It's tempting to try to extrapolate GRRM's current thinking from his 1993 thinking, but with a few notable exceptions (for instance, he seems to have known what the phrase "A Song of Ice and Fire" meant or it wouldn't be the series title) it's a really risky business. Ah, an interesting read as usual and I suppose that the immediate supplementary question is why are they different? I'm still of the belief that the 13 referred to are indeed the first 13 of the finished book; at that point everything is indeed in place and the beginning of the friendship between Jon and Tyrion seems a very appropriate point at which to wrap the trailer. What I think that this alteration does show is that at some point after the initial draft and synopsis GRRM decided to introduce the Rugen [Varys]/Illyrio conspiracy, hence Danaerys being presented with the three eggs rather than discovering one. How significant their introduction will prove to be in the end remains to be seen but if at this stage he was not clear about where the story was going in detail, they may simply have been a form of insurance which would broaden his options at a later date. Was the Young Aegon business planned early on or has GRRM used Rugen's conspiracy to bring Aegon in as a substitute for Dany's invasion since she's got herself stuck in Mereen - a development which certainly wasn't planned in the original synopsis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armstark Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Its an interesting point which I don't think has been properly explored before and I wonder whether the Stark in Winterfell business was simply a direct reaction to that earlier burning of the castle by the Boltons, and that originally it simply meant that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell to prevent anything like that happening again. Hypothetically, [since we don't know the circumstances] having Winterfell sacked and burned while its lord was off harrying the Barrow Kings or whoever would not just have been a personal affront but a shrewd blow to Stark power; just as the present burning has been. In other words the Stark in Winterfell business may simply be business rather than something mystical - which isn't to say it hasn't become an article of faith over the generations.The Boltons seem well versed in Its an interesting point which I don't think has been properly explored before and I wonder whether the Stark in Winterfell business was simply a direct reaction to that earlier burning of the castle by the Boltons, and that originally it simply meant that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell to prevent anything like that happening again. Hypothetically, [since we don't know the circumstances] having Winterfell sacked and burned while its lord was off harrying the Barrow Kings or whoever would not just have been a personal affront but a shrewd blow to Stark power; just as the present burning has been. In other words the Stark in Winterfell business may simply be business rather than something mystical - which isn't to say it hasn't become an article of faith over the generations.The Boltons seem well versed in avoiding whatever consequences there are in conquering a Heart Tree that does not belong to them. Roose even avoids the curse of Harrenhal (by accomodating the ghost of Harrenhal?)I believe the whole Stark in Winterfell comes down to what the Heart Tree might do if left to its own or rather left to all the old Stark spirits that dwell in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaesterSam Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I heard this was a great place for discussions of a heretical nature! I am the author of the linked reddit post. Also, I have some pretty interesting ideas for the Daynes connection to the events at the ToJ. This was actually my very first reddit post, so my ideas have evolved a bit since then, but the main gist is still the same: http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2e6x7m/spoilers_all_theory_the_ned_stark_house_dayne/. Also, Eira thanks for inviting me, this is a wonderful forum. Welcome to Heresy! :) I very much enjoyed both your Reddit posts. Regarding what happened to Ashara and her baby, if she did indeed sneak off to the Free Cities, (f)Aegon would be a likely candidate for her child. We also need to remember that there is a real possibility that Dany grew up in Dorne ("there are no lemon trees in Braavos"), which means Viserys lied to her about her early childhood. It also means that Ser Willem Darry was for some reason living in a house with a red door in Dorne, which is strange given that we know the Viserys/Arianne marriage agreement was signed in Braavos, by ser Willem and Doran Martell. If they were both in Dorne, why go to Braavos to sign a contract? My guess is Doran did not know where the kids were- otherwise he might have helped them out (anonymously) when Darry died and left them homeless and penniless. I'm not saying Dany is Ashara's child necessarily, just that there are a lot of questions regarding a lot of the events around Robert's Rebellion, especially as it relates to all these babies being born around that time. And I would suggest that Dany's parentage is not off limits when considering alternatives to the standard view of who these babies grew up to be. And..............here I am. Thanks for posting a link in the thread you mentioned above. I got a lovely "you obviously have never read a book and you are now on ignore!" out of that one. Cheers everyone Welcome to you too! It's always nice to get new people with new ideas and different perspectives on things. Hope you stick around! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 The Boltons seem well versed in Up to a point. I rather get the impression, nurtured in part by that book-burning incident, that while the Starks may have gotten complacent and no longer remember why things as they are, Roose Bolton is thinking about it, but may not have all the answers. Its interesting though that in this context he appears either to have no interest in what may lie in the crypts - or perhaps does and has far too much sense to go down there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 ETA: I would like to add that Bearqueen... is actually a pretty good sport, especially when I was suggesting that Rhaegar was gay and only got with Lyanna because he warged her. Agreed. And FFR - as impressed as I was with your suggestion at the time (and I was, very)... I'm even more impressed with the rumors you've started: see here. Good stuff! :lol: And..............here I am. Thanks for posting a link in the thread you mentioned above. I got a lovely "you obviously have never read a book and you are now on ignore!" out of that one. Cheers everyone WeaselPie - welcome! Hope I didn't drop the ball by not extending the Heresy invitation long ago... I've always found your posts refreshing and enjoyable to read. Would love to hear more from you among the heretics. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armstark Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Up to a point. I rather get the impression, nurtured in part by that book-burning incident, that while the Starks may have gotten complacent and no longer remember why things as they are, Roose Bolton is thinking about it, but may not have all the answers. Its interesting though that in this context he appears either to have no interest in what may lie in the crypts - or perhaps does and has far too much sense to go down there. Yes I agree Roose hasn't all the answers but he might have gained a better understanding at Harrenhal. I am not as sure as to where the answers are to be found and lean more to the Heart Tree than the crypts (although they might be the same in essence). In ancient times all the peoples history keeping and knowledge were stored in the Heart Trees until the maesters came along with their written word. I think it is no coincidence that the pivotal event of Bran's assassination starts off with the burning of the Winterfell libary. (Tyrion is of course the great random element that saves some of those books) Bloodraven's whole purpose with Bran might be to gain the knowledge of the Winterfell Heart Tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 Welcome to Heresy! :) I very much enjoyed both your Reddit posts. Regarding what happened to Ashara and her baby, if she did indeed sneak off to the Free Cities, (f)Aegon would be a likely candidate for her child. Can someone please remind me here of Ashara Dayne's whereabouts at the time of Lyanna's abduction? Were the two together and if so what of the possibility that she was the actual target and Lyanna was simply swept up in the rush.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Can someone please remind me here of Ashara Dayne's whereabouts at the time of Lyanna's abduction? Were the two together and if so what of the possibility that she was the actual target and Lyanna was simply swept up in the rush.? Whereabouts unknown. Still waiting for the release of Ashara Dayne: the Untold Story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 Ah well, not that it really matters cos I'm content with the proposition that Jon Snow is the son of Lyanna, but just a little curious as to the possibilities of whether it may not have been Rhaegar who was the father, given his lack of importance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balerion06 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Ah well, not that it really matters cos I'm content with the proposition that Jon Snow is the son of Lyanna, but just a little curious as to the possibilities of whether it may not have been Rhaegar who was the father, given his lack of importance Oooooh, who else did you have in mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 No-one in particular although Ser Arthur Dayne might be a possibility, but again I'm thinking of GRRM's dismissal of the business of the tower of joy, because when he says it was a dream and a fever dream at that and not to be taken literally, he's basically saying that treating it as anything more is reading way too much into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 WeaselPie - welcome! Hope I didn't drop the ball by not extending the Heresy invitation long ago... I've always found your posts refreshing and enjoyable to read. Would love to hear more from you among the heretics. :) Thank you, on both counts, and I've always enjoyed your comments too. No worries, I have been here before but got a bit lost on the current topics. My fault for not checking the flow of conversation more regularly, but I'll fix that ;) Cheers! - I wanted to add to the Bolton conversation, this is a bit out of context but would there be any significance to Ilyn Payne having Bolton blood? From Sansa GoT: As the headsman looked at her, his pale colorless eyes seemed to strip the clothes away from her, and then the skin, leaving her soul naked before him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Ah, an interesting read as usual and I suppose that the immediate supplementary question is why are they different? I'm still of the belief that the 13 referred to are indeed the first 13 of the finished book They may be essentially the same in that it's the same POVs in the same sequence and basically the same plot. I just suspect there may also be significant changes, like Dany not getting her eggs for so long. Just a handful of such changes would be huge for our purposes of analysis. Here's an interesting realization I had this morning. GRRM doesn't supply enough context in his summary letter at all. For instance, he refers to Winterfell without ever having defined Winterfell. He refers to Bran emerging from his coma, but has never told us that Bran was in a coma or why. Would a good writer make such elementary mistakes? I think not. So I suspect that GRRM meant for this letter to be read by anyone who had already read the 13 chapters... even though normally it would go the other way around, meaning an editor would look at the summary first and then read the chapters with that summary in mind, to see how well the summary was executed. This being the case, we can infer that the 13 chapters do define Winterfell and they do explain Bran being in a coma. So this supports the idea that they were basically fairly similar to the ones we know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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