Joe Pine Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Ned is always sad when he thinks of the TOJ. As are the KG- in Ned's dream, and in Jaime's dream. Both times the KG explain that they swore a vow. Sadly. Why all the sadness? Ned most likely had never even met Arthur Dayne or any of these guys before that day. Yes he respected them, but to not be able to speak about it many years later is extreme, given that they were strangers, and enemies.Wasn't Ned at the Tourney? I thought he saw Ashara at it but was too shy to talk to her?Back to the ToJ. Ser Oswell Whent. dead under the Cairn or is he Oswell servant of Littlefinger and 'father' of the Kettleback lads?I think he's dead, too obvious a red herring and I don't think the ages work out, or is it so obvious that it's a red herring squared and that he is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eira Seren Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Yes. And yes! It absolutely alters the terrain of our knowledge with respect to Lyanna's untold story. Martin poisoned the damned well, and he did it in the first twelve chapters - before we ever had a chance to draw clues together for ourselves! By the time we get to Ned's fever dream, or Jaime's account of Brandon's ride to King's Landing, or Meera's story of the KotLT... we already think we know what happened to Lyanna. She'd had sex with Rhaegar! And our primary/only source for that conclusion? It's the always respected, completely objective, careful, considered, fair, balanced, and impartial judgment of... of... uhm... well:----------"Roberts hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him... [and] the years had not quenched Roberts thirst for revenge...[Ned] found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever. It was a disturbing notion..."In my dreams, I kill him every night," Robert admitted. "A thousand deaths will still be less than he deserves."[Ned] was no Jon Arryn, to curb the wildness of his king and teach him wisdom. Robert would do what he pleased, as he always had...Robert was never known for his patience.The gods only knew what Robert would believe.----------Huh..Yes... Very fair and balanced. And also a nice little caveat, right from the start that someone is wrong-footed... Hard to think it might be the reader, too, because by the time we get to the other side of the story (targ perspective) we think we've made a big discovery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 On another topic, I just got season four of Game of Thrones on Blue Ray, and as always I went straight to Martin's one commentary track from the second episode of the season. Actually it was a bit of a let down usually Martin is more loquacious, in fact he almost seemed a bit bored this time. The one piece of info he did give is that Joffrey's killing at the "Purple Wedding" (a name he made sure everyone knew did not come from him) was based on the death of Eustace IV, the eldest son of King Stephen of England. Eustace allegedly choked on a piece of lamprey pie, even though it was rumored that he was poisoned. According to Wiki it was also rumored that he was divinely killed because of his blasphemies against the church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 The gods only knew what Robert would believe.----------Huh. It's an interesting observation which might suggest that only Robert had convinced himself that Rhaegar had raped Lyanna and that Ned knew something different, yet young Bran "knew" that she had been kidnapped by Rhaegar, had been raped and died down south, so whatever his source it wasn't just Trouserless Bob raving about it. Given the way Ned is clearly hiding something and harbouring a degree of guilt about it all there are probably two ways of looking at this; first that his only concern is to protect the boy and hide him from Bob, which is of course the obvious interpretation. The second is that Lyanna died, birthing Jon because she had been allowed to get mixed up in something way out of her depth, and there we return to the possibility that the Starks and the Arryns - and the Lannisters as well were all involved in Rhaegar's plot, but the rug was pulled from under it and the Starks were provoked into confronting the King and in the fall-out from that, Rhaegar had in the end to choose family over principles and fight against his erstwhile co-conspirators. His long disappearance can then be interpreted as avoiding either coming out in open rebellion against his father or turning on his co-conspirators, and so in the end being able to broker a settlement - until Hightower turned up and he was left with no choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Hi, it's me, back to the blue roses. Lyanna never actually wore the crown of blue roses when she was alive (that we're aware of). Rhaegar put the laurel in her lap. Eddard dreams of it around her neck like a garland, and clutching them in her hand. Only Theon actually envisions her with the blue roses as a crown on her head, and she is obviously dead in that vision. All the fanfic drawings should show a crowned, dead Lyanna. Also, this is weird. Cersei AFFC "Not kind," said Cersei, "merely truthful. Taena tells me that you are called the Blue Bard.""I am, Your Grace." The singer's boots were supple blue calfskin, his breeches fine blue wool. The tunic he wore was pale blue silk slashed with shiny blue satin. He had even gone so far as to dye his hair blue, in the Tyroshi fashion. Long and curly, it fell to his shoulders and smelled as if it had been washed in rosewater. From blue roses, no doubt. At least his teeth are white. They were good teeth, not the least bit crooked. Another association between blue roses and a bard, but this time, it's the bard who is falsely accused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Hi, it's me, back to the blue roses. Lyanna never actually wore the crown of blue roses when she was alive (that we're aware of). Rhaegar put the laurel in her lap. Eddard dreams of it around her neck like a garland, and clutching them in her hand. Only Theon actually envisions her with the blue roses as a crown on her head, and she is obviously dead in that vision. All the fanfic drawings should show a crowned, dead Lyanna. Also, this is weird. Cersei AFFC Another association between blue roses and a bard, but this time, it's the bard who is falsely accused.This is a pretty good catch, perhaps Martin is slyly telling us something here. Are we being Cersei and Qyburn torturing the narrative to put Rhaegar in Lyanna's bed? The Blue Bard also brings to mind how Martin seems to use the color blue to denote a falseness, think the Warlocks of Qarth, and the dye jobs of Griff and Young Griff. I did come across a modern translation of a Chinese folklore about a blue rose which goes straight to the heart of what a blue rose is, namely something false: Once, long ago there lived a king. He had but only one daughter who was his pride and joy. But now that the king was aging he feared that when he died she would have no one to care for her and protect her as befitting a princess. He set forth a proclamation to summon the young men to court. Many came, but all were turned away. One day the princess said to her father, “Let me stay with you and care for you. I have no desire to marry and leave you.” Her father remained steadfast. But, finally, he did agree to allow her to name one qualification that her chosen husband must meet – wealth, looks, strength, intelligence or ability, whatever. The princess said she would name that qualification on the morrow.That evening the princess went for a walk in the royal garden with the gardener’s son – her childhood friend. “If I say my husband must be fair of face, he may be handsome, but have a hardened soul. If I say he must be wealthy, he may be rich, but stingy in the ways of the heart. Oh, what qualification should I make?”“Perhaps, you should make it some sort of test,” mused the gardener’s son. “Difficult, but not impossible. Make it ambiguous enough that it will up to you to determine whether the man qualifies.” Far into the night they discussed what that test should be.The next morning the princess met with her father. “Father, I will marry the man who can bring me a blue rose.”As you can imagine the line of suitors came to an abrupt halt – for none could find a blue rose.Several months passed before a wealthy merchant decided he wanted to marry princess. Afterall the added wealth of the king’s ransom would make him the richest man in the whole kingdom. He did not want to waste any of his precious time looking for a blue rose. Time was money! So he went to a flower vendor. He placed a bag of gold on the vendor’s cart and said, “If you can acquire a blue rose, this bag of gold is yours.” The vendor took a strong blue dye and added it to a vase. He cut the end of the stem of a white rose and let it sit. Soon the petals of the rose turned pale blue. As the vendor gladly accepted the gold he said, “Keep the rose in the vase until you are ready to present it to the princess or it may wither and die.”The merchant brought the rose to the princess. When she reached out to take the rose, a drop of blue dye puddled in her hand. She looked not only at the blue rose, but the bluish-green leaves and then into the eyes of the merchant. He could not look at her. “You have tried to deceive me. What you have given me is false. I would have a husband that is true.” And the merchant went away in disgrace.Several more weeks passed when a handsome young warrior decided he wanted the hand of the beautiful princess. Afterall, she would look lovely on his arm as he came home from war. He was strong and powerful and no one dared to stand against him. Since there were no blue roses to be had in this kingdom, he went to see the king of a neighboring kingdom and said, “Bring me a blue rose or I will kill you and half the people in your village.” The king, who valued peace and did not wish to fight, called for an artisan who carved an exquisite rose from a blue sapphire.When he presented it to the princess she looked into his eyes and could see they were as cold and hard as the rose made of stone. “This is not a rose. I cannot marry you. I must have a rose that is soft and gentle not cold and hard.”Now the youngest of the king's advisors also sought the hand of the princess. He was very smart. He knew how to play all the angles. He knew if he married the princess he would be the most powerful man in the kingdom. So he went to see the wizard. “Fashion me a blue rose,” he commanded. “It must fool all who look but most especially the princess.” The wizard was able to capture the essence of a blue rose in a hologram that appeared inside a glass box.When he presented it to the princess, the court was astounded. Surely, the princess would recognize this as a blue rose. It was magnificent. And indeed the princess was fascinated. However, when she reached out to touch it, the image slipped through her fingers. “This is not a blue rose, but merely smoke and mirrors. I will not marry someone who twists and turns things around to his advantage. I will not marry you.”Later that night the princess sat in the garden with the gardener’s son. “None of them could bring me a blue rose. I must marry someone who is honest and true – as you have been. He cannot be hard and cruel, but someone kind and patient – as you have been. I do not want a husband who seeks only the power of one day becoming king, but someone who will value me for who and what I am – as you have.”“Princess,” said the young man, “Tomorrow, I will bring you the blue rose. Wait for me in the blue room just before sundown.”The next day the sun was almost gone when the Princess and the royal court met in the blue room. The gardener’s son appeared in the doorway carrying an ordinary white rose.“Look! Its the gardener’s son. What is he doing here?”“Is that a common white rose he is carrying?”“Surely someone will send him away.”The young man knelt before the princess. Through the blue stained glass the rays of the setting sun lit upon the petals of the white rose. The princess reached out and put her hand upon his. And through the murmurings of the court she said, “My people, let me tell you what I see. I see a young man who has always been honest and true. I see a man who has the courage to be patient and kind enough to wait until I knew what was in my heart. I see a man who values me for myself. In his hand he holds the gift of love. It is a blue rose, because I say it is a blue rose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Hi, it's me, back to the blue roses. Lyanna never actually wore the crown of blue roses when she was alive (that we're aware of). Rhaegar put the laurel in her lap. Eddard dreams of it around her neck like a garland, and clutching them in her hand. Only Theon actually envisions her with the blue roses as a crown on her head, and she is obviously dead in that vision. All the fanfic drawings should show a crowned, dead Lyanna. Also, this is weird. Cersei AFFC Another association between blue roses and a bard, but this time, it's the bard who is falsely accused.Interesting you brought this up, a lot of comparisons are made with the rose symbolism as Lya's fertility. To break it down to the rose types themselves blue roses on account of their rarity and them being not natural symbolizes; a figment something not real a farce and understand obtainable. So in a sense this whole fiasco surrounding the year of the False Spring is in effect. ..One big blue rose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 This is a pretty good catch, perhaps Martin is slyly telling us something here. Are we being Cersei and Qyburn torturing the narrative to put Rhaegar in Lyanna's bed? The Blue Bard also brings to mind how Martin seems to use the color blue to denote a falseness, think the Warlocks of Qarth, and the dye jobs of Griff and Young Griff. I did come across a modern translation of a Chinese folklore about a blue rose which goes straight to the heart of what a blue rose is, namely something false: Great story, thank you! I think the message is... Rhaegar never "crowned" Lyanna. It's simply not true. I trust Ned's memory. He never crowned her his Queen, but he was sending a message, to Lyanna and the other Starks as well. As for the Blue Bard, perplexing, but GRRM seems to say that the Bard associated with Blue is not the culprit.... yes, falseness. By extention, was Bael the Bard "set up"? Was Rhaegar? If Lyanna was crowned only in death, I only have one logical conclusion. She was a Queen to an Other/corpse bride/however you want to see it. A parallel to the Night's King. All of the other things I've been cranking around in my brain: Gorne's Way, Guest Right denial by the Kings of Winter, the crypts, Lyanna insisting on being buried there.. it could work. Tyrion says Jon has "more of the North in him." More of the "north" than his Stark brothers. Lyanna is serene when she says a man's nature cannot be changed. Arya loved playing in the crypts, they are fond memories. Arya is compared to Lyanna. All of the current-day prophecies (Azor Ahai, TPTWP, the Last Hero) were certainly around in Rhaegar's day. The Night's King is suspected to be a Stark, but he was killed by a Stark & Co. No mention is made of his "seed." This would explain Jon's nightmares about the crypt, and him not being welcome, even if he is half Stark. Say Rhaegar had more to the prophecy (we know he did), just as he knew TPTWP would be born yada yada, maybe there was a perplexing prophecy that a child would be born of Wolf and... Other. The roses laid in her lap were a warning, and an admission that he knew the secret. What if Ned promised to kill the baby? To not kill the baby? To kill Lyanna? What if Ned's promises were too terrible to keep? Or, so terrible, he regrets keeping them? In Ned's visions of her, she is weeping blood. Theon sees her sad and spattered with gore. If she smiled when Ned promised, why is she so sad in death? gah. I don't know. Something has to make sense here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urrax2 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Interesting you brought this up, a lot of comparisons are made with the rose symbolism as Lya's fertility. To break it down to the rose types themselves blue roses on account of their rarity and them being not natural symbolizes; a figment something not real a farce and understand obtainable.So in a sense this whole fiasco surrounding the year of the False Spring is in effect. ..One big blue rose.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_rose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Pine Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_roseSo... A symbol of royalty, could also be when a white rose dies, or grown with blue dye in the roots, or a Maester's little bit of trickery? Or do they grow in Westeros? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 What if the Citadel knew about the prophecy about a Wolf offspring? The terrible hero with blue eyes? Pycelle was in contact with the Citadel, even before Harrenhal. What did he tell Aerys to fuel his paranoia and eventually try to wipe the Starks off the face of Westeros? What did Walys Flowers know? To push the marriage between Brandon and a suitable blue-eyed girl? - I want to thank everyone for being patient with me. I know I rant, but this is the first place that hears me out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 delete:Was to appear as a reply to Urrax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 If I may Blue roses are often portrayed in literature and art as a symbol of love and prosperity to those who seek it, but as a result of genetic limitations do not exist in nature. Unnatural hybrids. Also, does anyone else think GRRM watched Twin Peaks? One of the top hits at the same time as Beauty and the Beast. Blue Rose Cases in the television show Twin Peaks, are the designation or codeword for unusual or unexplained FBI cases and ACoK Impressed by his skills as a singer, Lord Stark asked him what he wanted as a reward, and Bael only asked for the most beautiful flower blooming in Winterfell's gardens Due to the absence in nature of blue roses they have come to symbolise mystery and longing to attain the impossible, with some cultures going so far as to say that the holder of a blue rose will have his wishes granted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 "blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice" A chink is a weakness or vulnerable spot i.e. chink in an armor, an Achilles Heel The idiom "chink in one's armor" refers to an area of vulnerability. It has traditionally been used to refer to a weak spot in a figurative suit of armor. The standard meaning is similar to that of Achilles' heel. An Achilles heel is a deadly weakness in spite of overall strength, which can actually or potentially lead to downfall Notably used by: JRR Tolkein An unnatural hybrid growing because of a vulnerable spot in the Wall. Gorne's way is the chink in the Wall. Grendel and Gorne's story already told us that, and it was specifically told to Jon Snow and no other character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 If I may Unnatural hybrids. Also, does anyone else think GRRM watched Twin Peaks? One of the top hits at the same time as Beauty and the Beast. and ACoK I can almost gaurantee he's a fan, Tremond Gargalen was probably named after Mrs. Tremond and her grandson (who does the hocus pocus with the creamed corn). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Pine Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 The circle of roses if a garland seem to be a symbol of virtue and beauty. But are they a crown of roses like those seen on saints heads, is it a wreath and a symbol of the Starks doom? Eddard calls it a Laurel. It's a champions favour, but why blue winter roses?http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HelleboreInteresting, it's a different species to a conventional rose. It's possibly only grown as blue winter roses at Winterfell under the glass. Possibly it's poisonous if used as a herb.There's a flower symbology with conventional flowers, a meaning or code. Was there a high medieval code to the winter rose and then to the colours. There's symbology if the circle of blue winter roses is a crown obviously and may imply something different.A false crown? A false beauty? A false conspiracy? A false love of Rhaegar? Maybe that works better with impossible as WeaselPie says in post above. But it was the false spring. An impossible Union between Rhaegar and Lyanna, but the gesture of making her 'Queen of love and beauty' is a scandal for a married man but the wreath he gave her had its own meaning too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_rosehttp://www.roseforlove.com/the-meanings-of-blue-roses-ezp-39 Blue roses do not occur in nature, at least not the absolute blue roses. Roses lack the pigment that produces blue color. Our blue roses have been painstakingly created and imbued with a special meaning. Much like its mysterious origin, the blue rose means mystery. An appreciation for the enigmatic, the inexplicable is expressed by blue roses. A tantalizing vision that cannot be totally pinned down, a mystery that cannot be fully unraveled is the blue rose. A person who receives the blue rose is the subject of much speculation and thought. A complex personality that does not allow easy interpretation is what the blue rose indicates.Another meaning of the blue rose is that it symbolizes the impossible, or the unattainable. Since the blue rose itself is a rarity in nature, it stands for something that is hardly within one's grasp, an object that seems too difficult to be achieved. Thus the blue rose is admired and revered as an unrealizable dream.The blue rose being in itself something very extraordinary expresses that very same feeling. "You are extraordinarily wonderful", the blue rose exclaims. A truly wonderful personality, almost chimera-like is what the blue rose says about the receiver. A flight of fancy, an irrepressible imagination is what the blue rose is all about. Blue roses are also common symbols in literature, representing impossible prosperity and unrequited love. The fact that a blue rose is naturally unattainable and one can only be created with hard work and attention to detail signifies that blue roses are similar to many aspects of life. Riches are often out of reach for middle class individuals, and unrequited love is unattainable as well. The color blue also represents a melancholy feeling, which is what many people feel when their life and love goals cannot be met. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I can almost gaurantee he's a fan, Tremond Gargalen was probably named after Mrs. Tremond and her grandson (who does the hocus pocus with the creamed corn). "Ooh, I wonder why they chose blue roses. I'll check it out.... cool." omg the creamed corn... cheers from another fan The circle of roses if a garland seem to be a symbol of virtue and beauty. But are they a crown of roses like those seen on saints heads, is it a wreath and a symbol of the Starks doom?Eddard calls it a Laurel. It's a champions favour, but why blue winter roses?http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HelleboreInteresting, it's a different species to a conventional rose. It's possibly only grown as blue winter roses at Winterfell under the glass. Possibly it's poisonous if used as a herb.There's a flower symbology with conventional flowers, a meaning or code. Was there a high medieval code to the winter rose and then to the colours.There's symbology if the circle of blue winter roses is a crown obviously and may imply something different.A false crown? A false beauty? A false conspiracy? A false love of Rhaegar? Maybe that works better with impossible as WeaselPie says in post above. But it was the false spring.An impossible Union between Rhaegar and Lyanna, but the gesture of making her 'Queen of love and beauty' is a scandal for a married man but the wreath he gave her had its own meaning too. I have a very good tome on symbols in nature at home. Won't have it on hand until Sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jet199 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I get that the blue roses represent Rhaegar and Lyanna's child. The symbolism of Rhaegar putting the blue roses in her lap and then Ned taking them from her is very clear (and even clearer in the world book). I am actually quite extremist in the way I see blue roses as I don't think the represent Lyanna or a daughter of Winterfell in general but specifically the child of R and L. I also think that as the blue roses show up representing the child in a dream that this probably means that the child will eventually take blue roses as their sigil because that is what people tend to show up as in dreams and visions. My big problem with the blue roses is that Jon is never associated with them directly. We have Loras associated with blue flowers, Brienne with her bleu and rose sigil, Daario presents Dany with dusk roses, which are blue in the show, and Sansa's story line harks back to the tale of Bael the Bard more than any other character's. We have to very much make a leap of faith to link blue roses to Jon, we have to assume that the story will play out in a simple and predictable hidden heir style way. It could well be that GRRM has left out a direct connection with Jon on purpose to stop R+L=J being completely obvious but at the moment I am wondering if Jon is the blue rose baby or whether Ned did indeed do a bit of baby swapping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 I get that the blue roses represent Rhaegar and Lyanna's child. The symbolism of Rhaegar putting the blue roses in her lap and then Ned taking them from her is very clear (and even clearer in the world book). I am actually quite extremist in the way I see blue roses as I don't think the represent Lyanna or a daughter of Winterfell in general but specifically the child of R and L. I also think that as the blue roses show up representing the child in a dream that this probably means that the child will eventually take blue roses as their sigil because that is what people tend to show up as in dreams and visions.My big problem with the blue roses is that Jon is never associated with them directly. We have Loras associated with blue flowers, Brienne with her bleu and rose sigil, Daario presents Dany with dusk roses, which are blue in the show, and Sansa's story line harks back to the tale of Bael the Bard more than any other character's. We have to very much make a leap of faith to link blue roses to Jon, we have to assume that the story will play out in a simple and predictable hidden heir style way. It could well be that GRRM has left out a direct connection with Jon on purpose to stop R+L=J being completely obvious but at the moment I am wondering if Jon is the blue rose baby or whether Ned did indeed do a bit of baby swapping. Rhaegar is associated with them once, the same as many other characters are. How do you make the leap to associate them with Rhaegar ....and Lyanna? Jon is never associated with roses, but Dany gets a clear vision of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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