Heresy 152 [Spoilers]

[Frey family reunion]

I just don't buy the idea that Rhaegar's actions at Harrenhall were the result of a political coup gone astray. If Lyanna was meant as a hostage to stay the Stark-Arryn-Baratheon-Tully ambitions, then why the complete silence which surrounded her disappearance? I think we have to assume based on Rhaegar's conversation with Elia, that her disappearance was a part of Rhaegar's song of ice and fire. And her crowning may have been a signal to his conspirators which identified which part Lyanna was to play in the song (and perhaps which part her child/children were to play as well).

ETA: I don't necessarily suggest that politics had no part to play. Just like Summerhall seemed to be a mix of magic and politics (since Aegon V's believed dragons were necessary to enforce his ideas for policy changes in Westeros), my guess is Rhaegar was likewise mixing prophecy with political change.

[Urrax2]

Crackpot: How do we know that was Rhaegar, Elia, and Aegon that Dany saw in the HotU? She had never seen them. The figures she saw were not identified. For instance, could that have been Daemon Blackfyre and his son Aegon Blackfyre?

[Black Crow]

Crackpot: How do we know that was Rhaegar, Elia, and Aegon that Dany saw in the HotU? She had never seen them. The figures she saw were not identified. For instance, could that have been Daemon Blackfyre and his son Aegon Blackfyre?

I asked this question earlier. Dany at first thinks the man is her brother Viserys and then we get the harp business so she identifies him as Rhaegar. I have a very positive recollection of GRRM confirming in an SSM that the babe was Aegon and presume therefore but don't positively recall whether he also identified the woman as Elia. If he didn't that does throw open the possibility of Aegon being Ashara Dayne's son rather that Elia's, but on reflection I'm sure he must have identified her.

Nor do I recall exactly what the question was that he was responding to although essentially he was being asked if the woman and child were Lyanna and Jon. Since Lyanna [we assume] was delivered of Jon long after Rhaegar had ridden north to die at the Trident, its a bit of a no-brainer, but it does raise a couple of questions dismissively brushed aside or ignored by the faithful. First, why did Danaerys see the vision in the first place, or rather why did she see that particular vision rather than a vision which might point to Jon? Aegon's dead - isn't he? Then there's the vision itself, which depicts Rhaegar and Elia as a happy couple, happy with each other and happy with their son in a manner that seems odd if he's about to ride off into the sunset. Yes that kind of behaviour does happen in real life, but this isn't real life its a vision pregnant with meaning and that meaning isn't consistent with the story told by the faithful, especially as at the end Rhaegar appears to look directly at Dany to say that there must be a third. That we're told means that Rhaegar reckons there needs to be a third child, hence the metaphysical justification for R+L=J; but is it? If that was so would he not smile sadly and murmur the words regretfully to Elia? But no, he speaks directly to Dany and thereby tells her, surely, that she is the third, foretold in prophecy etc.

ETA: the question of the identity of those appearing in the vision is, I recall, confirmed in an essay on the House of the Undying visions on the Citadel page

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

... I think it's also worth while exploring that the blue Rose may in fact be a winter rose. It's associated with winter and is blue like the other's eyes. so I sort of see it as possibly symbolic of the north and possibly of the stark family and think the idea that Rhaegar might be using it as such is worth pursuing.

I'm on record for making this argument rather recently. And I more or less stand by the argument I made in this post here:

(I'm cutting and pasting this, so don't take the argumentative tone personally... we were having a discussion somewhere else... and I was arguing against the blue rose symbolizing either (1) Jon himself, or (2) Rhaegar in any way.)

...the idea that the blue rose represents Jon just doesn't make sense. And the notion that the "trail of blue roses" begins chronologically at the Harrenhal tourney is simply wrong. Is it also your position that, in the song o' the winter rose, it is Lord Stark's grandson and heir (Bael's son) who is represented by the blue rose? If so, then I respectfully suggest that you are misreading the story:

'All I ask is a flower,' Bael answered, 'the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o' Winterfell.' "

"Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o' the winter roses be plucked for the singer's payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished… and so had Lord Brandon's maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain."

The flower is the Stark's maiden daughter. If you want to proceed with botanical metaphors, then the child is the fruit. (And in this case, as I've suggested elsewhere, the Bael fruit in particular. The general apple metaphor is something I've covered rather extensively elsewhere.) The end of that song makes the distinction between the flower and the child even more clear, to my mind. The child and the rose are two different persons - one left "in payment for" the other:

"...what's certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he'd plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark." (2.51, JON)

I'll grant you the possibility that Rhaegar's behavior at Harrenhal may have been inspired, in part, by the song of the winter rose (though that's by no means a sure thing.) But if that's the case, it only confirms that Rhaegar's crown is not the beginning or the source of the blue rose symbolism. Rather, it is only a more recent event to be interpreted through the lens of the earlier story. And in that earlier story, the blue winter rose is a metaphor for Lord Stark's daughter. Not her child. And certainly not the man who plucks her from the Winterfell garden.

Also, in the context of sexuality, Martin uses the flower metaphor primarily (and generally) to represent the feminine or the female. Given that fact, it's rather curious that readers insist on interpreting Dany's vision of the "blue flower [growing] from a chink in a wall of ice" as a metaphor for Jon Snow. A survey of when and how Martin employs the floral analogy weighs heavily against the idea that the symbolic flower would represent a male character - and there's nothing about that particular vision to suggest anything different. So all things considered, I do find it a bit strange [to] think it was natural for Martin to suddenly identify Jon Snow as a flower.

[Black Crow]

I'm on record for making this argument rather recently. And I more or less stand by the argument I made in this post here...

As with so much these days I'm wary of reading too much into these symbols, just as I steer away from the "textual analysis" so beloved of the faithful. I'm rather inclined in this case to treat it simply as a metaphor for the Starks generally; its a Winter rose and the Starks are connected to Winter as much as to the North. Bael, whether acting out the Tam Lin story or something else, did not offer a rose but begged one from the Lord Stark. It was a Stark rose, not Bael's and in that context can serve as a metaphor for the Lord Stark's [un-named] daughter, for Lyanna or indeed for Jon at the Wall and there the rose growing from the crack is ominous for it is by roots growing and expanding in cracks that walls do crumble and eventually fall - as the synopsis tells us it will.

So far as Lyanna is concerned, given the uniqueness of the blue rose, I'm therefore inclined to take it not as a declaration of undying love, but as the cover for passing a message specifically addressed through the medium of Winter roses, rather than white ones or red ones, to the Starks whether thereby it was an acceptance of terms unknown or even a simple but effective invitation.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

As with so much these days I'm wary of reading too much into these symbols... I'm rather inclined in this case to treat it simply as a metaphor for the Starks generally... It was a Stark rose, not Bael's and in that context can serve as a metaphor for the Lord Stark's [un-named] daughter, for Lyanna or indeed for Jon at the Wall...

Well actually, BC, I'm being about as narrow as possible in my symbolic interpretation of the blue winter rose, when I say it represents the maiden daughter of House Stark. So I don't think I'm at risk of "reading too much" into it.

In comparison, you're significantly broadening the field here, bringing in all Starks - both male and female - and not only Starks. You're also suggesting the blue flower might represent a Snow - who has already self-identified as "no Stark" at all.

In my book, that's two strikes against the Jon-as-Blue-Flower theory.

"Men shouldn't smell sweet like flowers."

"What's wrong with flowers?"

"Nothing, for a bee. For bed I want one o' these." Ygritte made to grab the front of his breeches...

I think you may be reading too much into this symbol. ;)

.

[Matthew.]

So far as Lyanna is concerned, given the uniqueness of the blue rose, I'm therefore inclined to take it not as a declaration of undying love, but as the cover for passing a message specifically addressed through the medium of Winter roses, rather than white ones or red ones, to the Starks whether thereby it was an acceptance of terms unknown or even a simple but effective invitation.

I don't know if either the supposed negative reactions of the Starks at Harrenhal (according to the WB) or the aftermath align with this interpretation of Rhaegor's favor.

This is Ned's recollection from aGoT:

"Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost."

---

Catelyn also recalls Brandon's impulsive ride to the Red Keep when they'd learned of Lyanna's abduction, with Jaime adding that Brandon had shouted for Rhaegar to "come out and die."

If there was some kind of political agreement going on here between Rhaegar and House Stark, the Stark men certainly don't seem to have been aware of it.

[King Tyrion XX]

Maybe it was political and Rhaegar didn't like the answer he got. So he kidnapped Lyanna.

[Blazfemur]

So much red, red, red. One could only wonder of which is the herring..

Perhaps even a school, of fish ;)

[aDanceWithFlagons]

On Jon's crypt dreams and Bran and Rickon's dreams and Theon's dreams, is it possible Winterfell itself, or at least the crypts, are the source of the dreams? Winterfell is likened to a living tree after all, the crypts are the roots and the earlier discussions of the crypts themselves makes me wonder just who or what is down in the unexplored dark. Is there a real mystical connection to the crypts? Maybe a portal to the underworld?

Perhaps the three-eyed crow dwells there in the darkness with the dead and the doorways to the afterlife or second life or a frozen hell. Haha. Or not.

[Voice]

On Jon's crypt dreams and Bran and Rickon's dreams and Theon's dreams, is it possible Winterfell itself, or at least the crypts, are the source of the dreams? Winterfell is likened to a living tree after all, the crypts are the roots and the earlier discussions of the crypts themselves makes me wonder just who or what is down in the unexplored dark. Is there a real mystical connection to the crypts? Maybe a portal to the underworld?

Just as we have discussed a sentient being within the cold and/or wind, I think the same is true of the crypts. The crypts themselves do not seem to call to people, but they do seem to serve as an auditorium for people/things that do call to people. Rickon and Bran dreamed of their father down in them. Theon dreamed of the dead themselves in them. The stone men on their thrones are menacing and unwelcoming enough to non-Starks, but never call to anyone.

Jon is beckoned by a consciousness that dwells below the kings carved of stone. He does not fear it. He only fears that the crypts are not a place for him, and that the stone kings do not want him there. The presence inviting him further down does not carry this same hostility.

Whatever is calling him is even further down than the old kings of winter, which is pretty impressive.

Perhaps the three-eyed crow dwells there in the darkness with the dead and the doorways to the afterlife or second life or a frozen hell. Haha. Or not.

Bran's falling dream makes the distinction between the 3EC and the WF heart tree quite distinct. They are two separate entities.

But I do agree that something is dwelling down in that darkness, or someone. We have commented before that the crypts seem to be built within a cotf cave, given that the older Starks are entombed in the lower depths instead of on the upper levels. Normally a crypt is formed reversely: the first dead laid within are buried, then as more generations are laid to rest, the crypts are dug lower and lower. There must have been a very significant reason to start at the special place that exists far below Winterfell.

Greenseers have their mortal lives extended once they are enthroned in weirwood roots. Given that cotf live a long time, it is not out of the question for an ancient cotf greenseer to be on life support down there. Such an ancient greenseer is a very strong presence for the one calling to Jon.

I mused a heresy or two ago that Lyanna could be down there. The more I think about it, she makes a lot of sense. Something beneath the crypts of Winterfell is calling, and it is calling to only one person in the entire series. Who would call to Jon, aside from Lyanna? If alive on life support, like BR, she would serve to tie together many loose ends for Jon, the series, and us. If dead, but still connected to the roots, she may still be able to serve, as we are told that cotf know how to commune with the dead.

[Eira Seren]

Your quote regarding this is in Heresy 102.

Thanks :)

[Black Crow]

Just as we have discussed a sentient being within the cold and/or wind, I think the same is true of the crypts. The crypts themselves do not seem to call to people, but they do seem to serve as an auditorium for people/things that do call to people. Rickon and Bran dreamed of their father down in them. Theon dreamed of the dead themselves in them. The stone men on their thrones are menacing and unwelcoming enough to non-Starks, but never call to anyone.

Jon is beckoned by a consciousness that dwells below the kings carved of stone. He does not fear it. He only fears that the crypts are not a place for him, and that the stone kings do not want him there. The presence inviting him further down does not carry this same hostility.

Whatever is calling him is even further down than the old kings of winter, which is pretty impressive.

Bran's falling dream makes the distinction between the 3EC and the WF heart tree quite distinct. They are two separate entities.

But I do agree that something is dwelling down in that darkness, or someone. We have commented before that the crypts seem to be built within a cotf cave, given that the older Starks are entombed in the lower depths instead of on the upper levels. Normally a crypt is formed reversely: the first dead laid within are buried, then as more generations are laid to rest, the crypts are dug lower and lower. There must have been a very significant reason to start at the special place that exists far below Winterfell.

Greenseers have their mortal lives extended once they are enthroned in weirwood roots. Given that cotf live a long time, it is not out of the question for an ancient cotf greenseer to be on life support down there. Such an ancient greenseer is a very strong presence for the one calling to Jon.

I mused a heresy or two ago that Lyanna could be down there. The more I think about it, she makes a lot of sense. Something beneath the crypts of Winterfell is calling, and it is calling to only one person in the entire series. Who would call to Jon, aside from Lyanna? If alive on life support, like BR, she would serve to tie together many loose ends for Jon, the series, and us. If dead, but still connected to the roots, she may still be able to serve, as we are told that cotf know how to commune with the dead.

While I don't recall Lyanna being suggested, except by you recently, this sort of thing has been broadly discussed before in the past. A lot of what we understand about pre-Celtic religious practice and sidhe hills appears to centre not only on the placing of the dead in the earth in chambered tombs but then entering those tombs living for the purpose of using the sensory deprivation of the darkness and the total silence to listen to the dead and perhaps thereby communicate with the dead and with the gods.

And if that doesn't sound familiar, you haven't been reading the books.

Have a look at these links - the illustrations in the first one are particularly good

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maeshowe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newgrange

[Black Crow]

I don't know if either the supposed negative reactions of the Starks at Harrenhal (according to the WB) or the aftermath align with this interpretation of Rhaegor's favor...

...If there was some kind of political agreement going on here between Rhaegar and House Stark, the Stark men certainly don't seem to have been aware of it.

Agreed. They didn't like it, but the extreme reaction to the first rather suggests a deeper meaning than Rhaegar paying a compliment to a lady other than his wife. At this point in time Ned and Trouserless Bob have long been fostered with Jon Arynn and Lyanna is already being lined up to marry the latter. the Game of Thrones is already in play and Rhaegar's purpose in the tournament is not simply to sit down one night and open the conversation with the words, "You may be wondering..."

The Starks don't simply represent possible members of the gang he's forming. They are a rival faction in a fractured realm. If they are willing to join him, well and good, otherwise its face down in the pasta - hence the subsequent abduction, whether as a hostage, as a means of frustrating the proposed marriage alliance or even as a provocation; though the fact she is taken alive and not to Kings Landing demonstrates he's sensibly keeping his options open.

[Voice]

While I don't recall Lyanna being suggested, except by you recently, this sort of thing has been broadly discussed before in the past. A lot of what we understand about pre-Celtic religious practice and sidhe hills appears to centre not only on the placing of the dead in the earth in chambered tombs but then entering those tombs living for the purpose of using the sensory deprivation of the darkness and the total silence to listen to the dead and perhaps thereby communicate with the dead and with the gods.

And if that doesn't sound familiar, you haven't been reading the books.

Have a look at these links - the illustrations in the first one are particularly good

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maeshowe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newgrange

I mentioned Lyanna with the caveat that it was I who brought her up in this context...I didn't imply it was a common belief...

As to the sidhe hill discussions, sure, I totally agree. I enjoyed them. I am simply taking that idea a step further. As we've seen, communication with the dead isn't an abstract theological concept in GRRM's universe. If Jon is being invited downward by a dead person or thing, it is far more likely to be akin to the purple heart in the HotU than it is Maester Aemon in his keg.

So I would argue that once Jon finally makes his way beneath the tombs, his experience will not be in any way analogous with sensory deprivation. Just as it will not be analogous with Bran and Rickon's experience.

Jon's beckoning is unique. Unique, because rather than enter and hang a right to a nearby crypt of a recently deceased Stark, he is being called upon from something/someone in far deeper depths, even below the stone kings of winter.

If Winterfell is like a weirwood, and the crypts are it's roots, then whatever is calling Jon is at the root of the roots. The seed of it all.

[Black Crow]

I wasn't questioning your reference to Lyanna, just pointing out that in discussing the broader concept before it hadn't occurred to us that there might be a specific connection to Lyanna, other than in denying the wedding cake nonsense. Whatever is drawing Jon is unquestionably further down.

What I'm saying here is that there is a solid archeo-historical basis both for the crypts being a sidhe hill and in themselves being a possible means, down there in the darkness, or communing with the dead and with the gods especially if they are one and the same - and if that is the case then their significance both to the Sarks and to the story is thereby increased.

[Voice]

Ah I see now. That's exactly where I'm leaning. The depth itself is telling, as is Jon feeling the urge to move past the kings of winter. We've spoken before of his midnight ride down the kingsroad and how the places he'll never go seem to echo the history of Westeros. I think we have an even clearer case of moving through history in Jon's crypt dreams. As one descends into this hill, they literally move back through the pages of Winterfell's history with every step. I love that imagery.

Bran gave us a peek through the eyes of the weirwood and just look at how rich that glimpse was. Jon has only dreamed of it, but if/when he descends physically, I think we'll be in for a cool Northern Old-Gods version of the HotU. We need something good to come from Winterfell at this point, right? LOL like George gives a shit :D

Anyway, with Dany's tiny feet finding their way through the steps and turns of the HotU in mind, and the crazy things behind each door, I'm strongly considering Lyanna could be down there, urging Jon forward, alive or dead. We have enough precedent for both at this point.

[MaesterSam]

I certainly don't disagree with that. Lyanna was not the real cause of Robert's Rebellion, nor is what her and Rhaegar may have been up to the central mystery. I'd go so far as to say that I'm not even convinced that Lyanna had romantic feelings for Rhaegar.

It's Rhaegar himself that I feel more certain about; not just because several things in the text suggest that he'd become infatuated with Lyanna, but because it gives us a reason why an otherwise intelligent (supposedly) man with political intentions could have committed a series of political blunders that all but ensured he'd never have popular support at a great council to depose Aerys. "Love is the death of duty," I believe we get some variation of that sentiment from both Aemon and Benjen, and I would call it a recurring theme; otherwise competent characters making a royal mess of things because of love, romantic or otherwise.

As much as I would hate it if this was indeed the explanation for Rhaegar's behavior, you definitely have a point. Robb Stark being perhaps the most blatant example of a character risking (and ultimately losing) everything he has been working for because he fell in love with some girl. So GRRM has certainly set the precedent of otherwise competent characters making terrible decisions for romantic reasons.

If we follow Robb's example for a moment... here is Tyrion's reaction when he learns of it from Tywin:

For a moment Tyrion could not believe he’d heard his father right. “He broke his sworn word?” he said, incredulous. “He threw away the Freys for... - Words failed him.

“He is a boy of sixteen,” said Lord Tywin. “At that age, sense weighs for little, against lust and love and honor.”

“He forswore himself, shamed an ally, betrayed a solemn promise. Where is the honor in that?”

So yeah, this was a BIG DEAL. But look at Ser Kevan's response:

Ser Kevan answered. “He chose the girl’s honor over his own. Once he had deflowered her, he had no other course.”

Is it possible we have this type of scenario going on here? Rhaegar and Lya hooked up at Harrenhal, then 3 months later she realizes she is with child. She knows the wedding is off, and is terrified of the consequences. Somehow she contacts Rhaegar, and he, being the honorable guy that he is, sets out immediately to meet her, even though it's winter. Maybe they even staged the abduction, to make it look more real. He finds a place to hide her until the child is born- maybe even on the Isle of Faces, since nobody would come looking there. They are completely cut off from everyone, so they don't know what is happening. Once the child is born, they leave the isle to learn the world has fallen apart. At this point, it's really too late to send Lyanna home and explain it was all a misunderstanding. Rhaegar has to return to KL to help his family fight the war, but he sends Lyanna to the safest place he can think of, the one kingdom not involved in the war: Dorne. He sends Ser Arthur with her for protection.

It doesn't explain everything, of course, but it fits about as well as most other crackpots we've come up with.

[WeaselPie]

Is it possible we have this type of scenario going on here? Rhaegar and Lya hooked up at Harrenhal, then 3 months later she realizes she is with child.

I've played around a lot with the possibility of conceptions at Harrenhal. While it's possible for Ashara, and it might be possible for Lyanna, I struggle with how it's possible Jon was conceived there unless the entire timeline was shifted.

And although I think Jon is older than Robb, in the "conception at Harrenhal" scenario the gap would be too great to hide without magical intervention that seems to be beyond the magic in the books.

A difference of several months is possible without anyone noticing due to the obvious size/stature differences between then, as well as that wonky "bastards grow up faster" BS Luwin spouts (the same comment makes Benjen awkward). And yes we already have that parallel with Gillybaby and Dallababy, which needs to mean something in the end.

I also tend to think Elia was not pregnant at Harrenhal. She'd just had a long recovery after Rhaenys, and I doubt Rhaegar would risk his precious comet-sperm (the conception date is far more important than the birth date in the prophecy) by dragging his possibly pregnant wife to the Tourney. We also do not know the date of Aegon's birth. Even the wiki/companion books have changed the dates.

-

I'd like to nominate Summerhall as one of the possible places Rhaegar took Lyanna, before or after the Battle of Summerhall (which only took one day, and still leaves room for the Isle of Faces). It's en route south, and one of the most significant places in the story for Rhaegar. If he was seeking more info about prophecies in the place where the PTWP prophecy was made, that would be the place. I also think he would have tried to find the Ghost of High Heart, not terribly far from Harrenhal, albeit west.

If Rhaegar's motivation was prophecy, this would trace a likely path.

It is also enroute from Storm's End to the ToJ. Quite probable Ned passed through there, and would have known it was a likely hiding place for Rhaegar to choose, without anyone even telling him. Is it possible this is where the bed of blood took place?

[Black Crow]

Given that we don't know, all things are possible, but there's certainly no mention of Rhaegar being anywhere near Summerhall or any of the other battlegrounds until that final, fatal encounter at the Trident. And this again is why I'm far more inclined to look beyond some kind of infatuation to a political reason for his long disappearance. Sure Robb Stark married the Spicer girl for honour, but that was while he was incapacitated and as soon as he was able to get back in the saddle he was fighting again all the way through to the bitter end.