Heresy 152 [Spoilers]

[wolfmaid7]

I think i had answered it atlease in my scenario Aegon/Jon is Lyanna's son.

[WeaselPie]

Timeline issues aside... how can we explain that Jon is really the son of Rhaegar and Elia if Jon's got an unquestionably Starky face?

I recall someone (Maester Sam) bringing this up before, and it seems a good question.

I assure you I'm not sold on Jon=Aegon, but I've tried to sort all this out even before grAegon's big reveal and DwD, because I do not believe RLJ, and we have limited possibilities for alternates. Aegon was a screaming loose end before we met grAegon.

Five out of seven people who see Jon guess he has a Dornish mother. Jon is "dark" with "almost black eyes." That sounds like a Martell on the face of things. We also have GRRM's exposition about grAegon's skin getting tan, which is... weird. More on that later, but the exposition seems to be that Dornish skin color depends on climate.

As for the Stark comparisons, I do agree, but that seems to be limited to the "dark grey almost black" eyes and the long face, as well as his demeanor. Who would expect to see a Martell in the North, especially if you believed he was a Stark? If you were to compare a non-tanned-because-of-the-climate Martell with a Tully, which would look more Stark?

We only have a few few examples of Targ/Martell children, some of whom looked more like Targs, but most of whom never have much of a description. We do have one with a long face.

Maybe Jon "I am not a Stark" Snow is not a Stark.

No worries, I do have other thoughts about Jon.

I think i had answered it atlease in my scenario Aegon/Jon is Lyanna's son.

So he brought him to Elia to raise as their son? I had never considered that..... :cheers:

[WeaselPie]

Nah, I really can't get my head around Jon as Aegon. He really is too much of a Stark to be anyone but Lyanna's son and I remain very struck by the way that Maester Aemon spends a long time explaining to Jon the consequences of taking his oath as a man of the Nights Watch and in particular the business of giving up his family; illustrating the point by revealing that he is Aemon Targaryen and had to watch the downfall of his house without lifting a finger to help.

And then, when it comes to the crisis all of that goes straight out the proverbial window:

"You are a son of Winterfell, a nephew of Benjen Stark. It must be you or no one."

I'm completely open to Jon being Lyanna's son. Then we need to talk about who is the father, and I hope you forgive me for missing 150 threads of the conversations I should have been having here all along on this forum.

[Voice]

I see what you are saying and again i don't see why that would alter Jon's unique experiance or lessen the understanding of Winterfell.I tend to look at patterns flavor withstanding which i don't think would again alter or lessen Winterfell in any way.But to each his own.

Sure. And I don't mean to dismiss the parallels. I totally agree they exist. I just see Winterfell as being a bit beyond comparison. The stony men of the Sorrows have more of a Valyrian vibe about them, and their doom. I tend to view the Fire side of things in a separate dimension, and the Ice side in its own. Parallels pop up, as they coexist in this universe, but I view the Song as a clash of opposites that may yield a new balance, but will never result in their equality. They are like oil and water, distinct and difficult to mix... so difficult, that doing so tends to create a bit of chaos ;)

[Joe Pine]

I'm completely open to Jon being Lyanna's son. Then we need to talk about who is the father, and I hope you forgive me for missing 150 threads of the conversations I should have been having here all along on this forum.

Morningsex.. ehrm.. Sorry.. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the er..

If it wasn't Rhaegar, then he must be a likely contender.

[Voice]

I would say that the House of the Undying vision is no more real, in a literal sense, than Jon's dreams of the Winterfell crypts. In both cases however those concerned are being given important information; Jon, that notwithstanding everything he was told as he grew up he is a son of Winterfell and must eventually go there; Dany that she is the third head of the dragon, whatever that means, but perhaps third after Rhaegar and Aegon and so the last best hope of her house.

I disagree. Dany literally entered the HotU. Jon has only figuratively entered the crypts.

Sidenote: She drank "shade of the evening" to enter.... that sounds a lot like passing "beneath the shadow" I'd say. So as far as that part of Quaithe's admonishments, I'd say Dany did it already, and thus touched the light (i.e. enlightenment, visions, prophecy, etc).

[wolfmaid7]

I assure you I'm not sold on Jon=Aegon, but I've tried to sort all this out even before grAegon's big reveal and DwD, because I do not believe RLJ, and we have limited possibilities for alternates. Aegon was a screaming loose end before we met grAegon.

Five out of seven people who see Jon guess he has a Dornish mother. Jon is "dark" with "almost black eyes." That sounds like a Martell on the face of things. We also have GRRM's exposition about grAegon's skin getting tan, which is... weird. More on that later, but the exposition seems to be that Dornish skin color depends on climate.

As for the Stark comparisons, I do agree, but that seems to be limited to the "dark grey almost black" eyes and the long face, as well as his demeanor. Who would expect to see a Martell in the North, especially if you believed he was a Stark? If you were to compare a Martell with a Tully, which would look more Stark?

We only have a few few examples of Targ/Martell children, some of whom looked more like Targs, but most of whom never have much of a description. We do have one with a long face.

No worries, I do have other thoughts about Jon.

So he brought him to Elia to raise as their son? I had never considered that..... :cheers:

Bingo!!!! That was the plan until it all went to hell. In this scenario the baby wasn't his either it is Lya's via Aerys.

Sure. And I don't mean to dismiss the parallels. I totally agree they exist. I just see Winterfell as being a bit beyond comparison. The stony men of the Sorrows have more of a Valyrian vibe about them, and their doom. I tend to view the Fire side of things in a separate dimension, and the Ice side in its own. Parallels pop up, as they coexist in this universe, but I view the Song as a clash of opposites that may yield a new balance, but will never result in their equality. They are like oil and water, distinct and difficult to mix... so difficult, that doing so tends to create a bit of chaos ;)

I think your'e taking my parallels "too" literal one to one that is and i'm not going there at all.I'm speaking of themes that need not be to over lapping.Magic gets it labels because of the person that uses it but essentially it is magic.And a song is both clash and concord.One piece with two elements,but both part of said song.

[WeaselPie]

It would be the ultimate twist if Jon "never forget who you are" Snow was not a Stark, and Daenerys "remember who you are" Targaryen was.

But back to Jon's mother if we think L=?=J. Arthur Dayne is a good choice because of the Sword of the Morning mess GRRM has put us in. Mance has been proposed (I'll get to him in another post- he is first mentioned in sentence 5, Chapter One AGoT, so that's kind of a big deal), but I propose an Other.

I've explained a lot of the groundwork with Gorne's Way, the Kings denying Guest Right, some other things. Tyrion saying Jon has "more of the North" in him.

In Chapter One AGoT sentence 10 we get this from Bran

And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children.

and then we get this

"He was a wildling," Bran said. "They carry off women and sell them to the Others."

Then we have this gem

"I'm surprised she lived long enough to whelp," [Ned] said. His voice broke the spell.

"Maybe she didn't," Jory said. "I've heard tales . . . maybe the bitch was already dead when the pups came."

"Born with the dead," another man put in. "Worse luck."

Guys, that's Chapter One. Thoughts?

I think I already mentioned that Lyanna is never remembered alive with a crown of blue roses. She is only crowned when she's dead in Theon's dream.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Voice of the First Men said

Bran's falling dream makes the distinction between the 3EC and the WF heart tree quite distinct. They are two separate entities

Say whaaaa? I don't think the Winterfell weirwood and the 3-EC are the same at all. I was only pondering if the 3EC was originating from Winterfell and "dwelling" there in the mystical darkness in the deepness of the crypts.

It's only a quick idea, but it goes along with the idea that the 3-EC is the subconscious avatar or manifestation of the third eye. A guide for the visually inclined. Still...

It's all crazy! It's all false! It's all a dream! It's alright

At first I thought you were referencing the dreams of Bran, and maybe you were, of the crow and the tree. Which I believe the tree is the chorus to the crow's Caw.

[Mace Cooterian]

What does a bottle of 12 year old Chivas Regal have to do with ASoIaF?

Not much you say? Well think again and read on.

Not necessarily Heresy; but it’s a lonely Friday night, my wife is at work, the kids are…. (I don’t want to know)….and I’m opening a bottle of 12 year old Chivas Regal that was bottled in the 1970’s. If you are interested on how I come about a bottle from the 70’s; ping me and I’ll tell you. I’ve never really taken time to observe the packaging of a Chivas Regal bottle but it is a very ornate and rich in Scottish tradition that includes pictorials of three centuries worth of symbolism; and as I have said it’s a lonely night. Inserted in the packaging is a small fold out that contains a legend that describes the symbols.

At first I didn’t think anything about it, but as I read the legend descriptions, I found more and more references to names and places from ASoIaF. For the sake of brevity, I’ll only include those items that can be found within the text and where (appropriate) a few comments to explain what might otherwise be non-discernible.

Top Panel

Center Shield: Robert the Bruce on Charger (his horse)

Left and Right: Lions rampant

Top: Crown

Bottom: Scottish National Badge Thistle Floral Design

Panel No. 1

Scottish Ship, a Boars Head and a Flower from an Old Scottish Shield.

Center Design: Legendary Spider climbing to its web.

Panel No. 2

Center Design: Robert the Bruce vs Sir Henry Bohen of Bannockburn, 1314. (More on this one later).

Panel No. 3

Top Left: The Royal Thistle

Panel No. 4

Top Left: Lion passant guardant

Center Design: Duke of Monmouth, 1697. Horse and Central Figure from old book binding.

Observations

Nothing really big here other than to say I might have too much time on my hands if I can read the packaging of a Chivas Regal bottle and relate most of it to ASoIaF. There are however, a few interesting items outside of the common names we recognize:

Robert the Bruce: Obviously a reference to one Robert “Trouser less Bob” Baratheon.

1. I found it interesting that upon his death, his heart was sent to the Holy Land (1300’s). It made me think of “power in King’s blood”.
2. The Legendary Spider. According to legend Bruce was driven into exile (JonCon looking for Robert at the Battle of the Belles) and hid himself in a cave watching a spider try to make a web time and time again. “If at first you don’t succeed – try, try again. When I first read spider on the packaging I’m immediately thought of spiders on the wall (which we have yet to see).
3. Perhaps the most intriguing pictorial on the Chivas Regal packaging is that of Robert the Bruce at the Battle of Bannockburn. Amazing how much this looks like Robert and Rhaegar on the Trident - war hammer included.

http://fineartamerica.com/featured/the-battle-of-bannockburn-ron-embleton.html

Side note: I realize that Monmouth doesn’t mean anything; but it made me think of Mormont.

Last observation is that there are two references to Thistle….”she sees me”.

Conclusions….I really don’t have any other than wondering if GRRM likes Chivas Regal?

Thanks for reading.

Mace

[Voice]

Voice of the First Men said

Say whaaaa? I don't think the Winterfell weirwood and the 3-EC are the same at all. I was only pondering if the 3EC was originating from Winterfell and "dwelling" there in the mystical darkness in the deepness of the crypts.

It's only a quick idea, but it goes along with the idea that the 3-EC is the subconscious avatar or manifestation of the third eye. A guide for the visually inclined. Still...

It's all crazy! It's all false! It's all a dream! It's alright

At first I thought you were referencing the dreams of Bran, and maybe you were, of the crow and the tree. Which I believe the tree is the chorus to the crow's Caw.

Yup I was referencing the dream weirwood at Winterfell, and the 3EC being distinct. Never paid it much mind, but wolfmaid made me think twice about it. While I wouldn't go so far as to say they are fighting over control of Bran, I don't think they're in cahoots...

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

ok so raegar and elia =jon and you guys make fun of the RLJ thread this is nuts.

If that turned out to be true i would really t hink these books were a bunch of babbling and not an incredible author leading us to fun and thought provoking conclusions.

[QueenOfVibe]

Cool,possible speculation,but what about so many who comment that Jon has that Stark "look"...:wub:

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

Or the fact the guys from HBO guessed his parents when GrrM asked them i highly doubt they guessed Rae-baby and elia

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

the wait for the next book has taken it's toll on us lol i think we have literally broken down every scenario more than GRRM himself. I think that speaks to what a good job the author has done but i highly doubt he expected his readers or even wanted his readers to pick apart his work so much to the point were trying to pin down what jon's sign is or the sex of a horse or the eye color of every person. And im very guilty of doing all things im saying

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

I think when it comes to trying to come up with hypothesis to what the hell is gonna happen we have to not only get into the minds of the characters but get into the mind of the author and think would this work would an above average reader be able to pick up on these clues?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

What does a bottle of 12 year old Chivas Regal have to do with ASoIaF?

Not much you say? Well think again and read on.

Not necessarily Heresy; but its a lonely Friday night, my wife is at work, the kids are. (I dont want to know).and Im opening a bottle of 12 year old Chivas Regal that was bottled in the 1970s. If you are interested on how I come about a bottle from the 70s; ping me and Ill tell you. Ive never really taken time to observe the packaging of a Chivas Regal bottle but it is a very ornate and rich in Scottish tradition that includes pictorials of three centuries worth of symbolism; and as I have said its a lonely night. Inserted in the packaging is a small fold out that contains a legend that describes the symbols.

At first I didnt think anything about it, but as I read the legend descriptions, I found more and more references to names and places from ASoIaF. For the sake of brevity, Ill only include those items that can be found within the text and where (appropriate) a few comments to explain what might otherwise be non-discernible.

Top Panel

Center Shield: Robert the Bruce on Charger (his horse)

Left and Right: Lions rampant

Top: Crown

Bottom: Scottish National Badge Thistle Floral Design

Panel No. 1

Scottish Ship, a Boars Head and a Flower from an Old Scottish Shield.

Center Design: Legendary Spider climbing to its web.

Panel No. 2

Center Design: Robert the Bruce vs Sir Henry Bohen of Bannockburn, 1314. (More on this one later).

Panel No. 3

Top Left: The Royal Thistle

Panel No. 4

Top Left: Lion passant guardant

Center Design: Duke of Monmouth, 1697. Horse and Central Figure from old book binding.

Observations

Nothing really big here other than to say I might have too much time on my hands if I can read the packaging of a Chivas Regal bottle and relate most of it to ASoIaF. There are however, a few interesting items outside of the common names we recognize:

Robert the Bruce: Obviously a reference to one Robert Trouser less Bob Baratheon.

• I found it interesting that upon his death, his heart was sent to the Holy Land (1300s). It made me think of power in Kings blood.
• The Legendary Spider. According to legend Bruce was driven into exile (JonCon looking for Robert at the Battle of the Belles) and hid himself in a cave watching a spider try to make a web time and time again. If at first you dont succeed try, try again. When I first read spider on the packaging Im immediately thought of spiders on the wall (which we have yet to see).
• Perhaps the most intriguing pictorial on the Chivas Regal packaging is that of Robert the Bruce at the Battle of Bannockburn. Amazing how much this looks like Robert and Rhaegar on the Trident - war hammer included.

http://fineartamerica.com/featured/the-battle-of-bannockburn-ron-embleton.html

Side note: I realize that Monmouth doesnt mean anything; but it made me think of Mormont.

Last observation is that there are two references to Thistle.she sees me.

Conclusions.I really dont have any other than wondering if GRRM likes Chivas Regal?

Thanks for reading.

Mace

:cheers: Sounds like some fine sipping going down at your place. I am enjoying some Texas brewed Pale Ale, but it's not as tasty as scotch.

One thing that stuck out to me is the Monmouth, and maybe what sparked with you also, is the character Lonmouth, that is Ser Richard Lonmouth who squired for Rhaegar.

The other thing that sparked from Monmouth is my year along the Jersey Shore where I lived and worked in Monmouth County. Some of the place names there... The Freehold Township and the borough of Wall. And I worked in the Highlands.

ETA... that would be kinda funny if GRRM pulled some of his ideas/semi-inspired from a bottle of Scottish Whiskey. Har!

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Yup I was referencing the dream weirwood at Winterfell, and the 3EC being distinct. Never paid it much mind, but wolfmaid made me think twice about it. While I wouldn't go so far as to say they are fighting over control of Bran, I don't think they're in cahoots...

Well! I may be wrong, but after Bran decides to go north I think he stops dreaming of the tree and the crow. If it was a calling of two different entities, would not the other one keep calling to Bran?

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

Well! I may be wrong, but after Bran decides to go north I think he stops dreaming of the tree and the crow. If it was a calling of two different entities, would not the other one keep calling to Bran?

good point

[wolfmaid7]

ok so raegar and elia =jon and you guys make fun of the RLJ thread this is nuts.

If that turned out to be true i would really t hink these books were a bunch of babbling and not an incredible author leading us to fun and thought provoking conclusions.

Who said Rhaegar and Elia equates Jon?I don't think anyone is putting that forth here.He clearly has Stark parentage.Where did you get that?