Heresy 152 [Spoilers]

[Eira Seren]

Cat ASoS. Let the kings of winter have their cold crypt under the earth, Catelyn thought. The Tullys drew their strength from the river, and it was to the river they returned when their lives had run their course

Might this suggest Cat is resurrected in the manner she is (after being in water) because the Tully's have some link with water? By extension, could it mean Starks are resurrected through a link that happens to be represented in the crypts? Crack pottery...

[Eira Seren]

Double post

[Eira Seren]

Double post

[Joe Pine]

Blue Winter Roses

My theory on the circle or laurel of flowers that Rhaegar gives Lyanna is that it is a code to say 'I know you were the Knight of the Laughing Tree'. It is a laurel using Blue Winter Roses associated and grown at Winterfell.

A blue flower is impossible, false, 'you were the false knight, Lyanna.'

In a wider sense, Rhaegar is possibly saying to the Starks that he know what their Southron Ambitions are about.

But the gesture is misinterpreted as 'I want you, Lyanna', it was the champions's favour, a favour to indicate a queen of love and beauty. But flowers from Winterfell, the colour, the winter roses give a different meaning or a secret message in the gift.

Rhaegar, then kidnaps or elopes with her. Is it a cover for negotiation with the Starks? What better than 'he's bedding Lyanna Stark as a cover for something else?

[WeaselPie]

Might this suggest Cat is resurrected in the manner she is (after being in water) because the Tully's have some link with water? By extension, could it mean Starks are resurrected through a link that happens to be represented in the crypts? Crack pottery...

Well since we know of only one Tully to be resurrected from the water, I don't know.

Unless this is a foreshadowing of a Stark resurrected from the crypts? Cat was a special case, as all resurrections are.

I appreciate the crack pottery, don't let anyone stop you!

[WeaselPie]

Blue Winter Roses

My theory on the circle or laurel of flowers that Rhaegar gives Lyanna is that it is a code to say 'I know you were the Knight of the Laughing Tree'. It is a laurel using Blue Winter Roses associated and grown at Winterfell.

A blue flower is impossible, false, 'you were the false knight, Lyanna.'

In a wider sense, Rhaegar is possibly saying to the Starks that he know what their Southron Ambitions are about.

But the gesture is misinterpreted as 'I want you, Lyanna', it was the champions's favour, a favour to indicate a queen of love and beauty. But flowers from Winterfell, the colour, the winter roses give a different meaning or a secret message in the gift.

Rhaegar, then kidnaps or elopes with her. Is it a cover for negotiation with the Starks? What better than 'he's bedding Lyanna Stark as a cover for something else?

I think you're right on the money, it was a message that he knew something. And yes, the other Starks there would have known that. A warning maybe?

Yet we need to keep in mind what blue roses would have meant to the Starks for it to make sense. The Starks don't have access to google and would have only seen blue roses as having one interpretation.

[Joe Pine]

I think you're right on the money, it was a message that he knew something. And yes, the other Starks there would have known that. A warning maybe?

Yet we need to keep in mind what blue roses would have meant to the Starks for it to make sense.

It's almost like something from The Godfather or a mafia movie, 'You now know that I know'

Deposing Aerys would be treason, maybe Rhaegar is saying 'he's in'

[WeaselPie]

It's almost like something from The Godfather or a mafia movie, 'You now know that I know'

Deposing Aerys would be treason, maybe Rhaegar is saying 'he's in'

who's in?

Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.

[wolfmaid7]

I think you're right on the money, it was a message that he knew something. And yes, the other Starks there would have known that. A warning maybe?

Yet we need to keep in mind what blue roses would have meant to the Starks for it to make sense. The Starks don't have access to google and would have only seen blue roses as having one interpretation.

Maybe it was another "Company of the rose" situation Rhaegar was trying to relay

Throw your lot in with me and you won't have to bow,i'm with you guys i don't wan't to have to bow to this madman any longer :dunno:

[WeaselPie]

Maybe it was another "Company of the rose" situation Rhaegar was trying to relay

Throw your lot in with me and you won't have to bow,i'm with you guys i don't wan't to have to bow to this madman any longer :dunno:

I like it.

But. Sorry I'll say But, even though I like that as an explanation.

It was so public, like jaw-droppingly public. All the smiles died and all that. However, only the Starks would have figured out the blue roses were directed at them personally, so. I do like it.

(Did you guys ever figure out how Harrenhal just happened to have blue roses as the laurel?)

[JNR]

Take the cannoli.

Now there's a blunt pickup line.

(Did you guys ever figure out how Harrenhal just happened to have blue roses as the laurel?)

Was it Harrenhal? ...or was it Rhaegar?

[QueenOfVibe]

I believe "it is known" GRRM liked Twin Peaks...

[WeaselPie]

Now there's a blunt pickup line.

Was it Harrenhal? ...or was it Rhaegar?

Has that been discussed here? How do you think it went down?

I believe "it is known" GRRM liked Twin Peaks...

Damn good coffee. And HOT.

Wait, maybe Rhaegar is Bob.

[Joe Pine]

I like it.

But. Sorry I'll say But, even though I like that as an explanation.

It was so public, like jaw-droppingly public. All the smiles died and all that. However, only the Starks would have figured out the blue roses were directed at them personally, so. I do like it.

I think Rhaegar would have to put Elia in the picture. 'This is business, not me trying it on with her' as he would know how it would be seen otherwise.

(Did you guys ever figure out how Harrenhal just happened to have blue roses as the laurel?)

Blue Winter Roses. Unless Harrenhal had a nursery garden or perhaps they grew at the castle's woods. Possible the Starks brought things from Winterfell south, maybe a wagonload of things from the North and Winterfell as a contribution to the Tourney and maybe a display of their wealth/power/generosity.

And (tinfoil hat on) if Rhaegar wasn't as besotted with Lyanna as RL=J suggests, then we have '?L=J' and I like the idea of Arthur Dayne guarding Lyanna, then falling for her and if Jon is the next Sword of the Morning with Dawn and Lightbringer and all that, it might plug in nicely to a few other prophecies.

[WeaselPie]

I think Rhaegar would have to put Elia in the picture. 'This is business, not me trying it on with her' as he would know how it would be seen otherwise.

Blue Winter Roses. Unless Harrenhal had a nursery garden or perhaps they grew at the castle's woods. Possible the Starks brought things from Winterfell south, maybe a wagonload of things from the North and Winterfell as a contribution to the Tourney and maybe a display of their wealth/power/generosity.

And (tinfoil hat on) if Rhaegar wasn't as besotted with Lyanna as RL=J suggests, then we have '?L=J' and I like the idea of Arthur Dayne guarding Lyanna, then falling for her and if Jon is the next Sword of the Morning with Dawn and Lightbringer and all that, it might plug in nicely to a few other prophecies.

I suspect Elia was "in" on a great deal, but she still had to put up with the public shaming. Sad, that.

About the roses, either it's very random as you suggest (which might be poor writing, sorry GRRM), or Rhaegar himself insisted on the prize. There has been suggestion here that the other knights threw the match for Rhaegar. I actually have a semi-canon notation somewhere about that, I'll try to find it.

I will admit, I love the idea of Jon as Sword of the Morning. GRRM has stated that's a big deal and that the SotM "shall rise again", and we have a very few candidates if they need to be from House Dayne. Who else could be SotM? We only have two choices as it stands, Edric (no) or Darkstar. GRRM needs to majorly develop Darkstar for me to believe that.

I would name Jon as Elia's Aegon, and I have, and I will probably still consider that when it comes up because it makes sense in the story. Unfortunately, SSMs from the year 2000 make the timeline wonky, and that is the ONLY reason it doesn't work. One of the reasons I believe this is because Rhaegar told that Aegon is TPTWP, and I'm not sure how showing Dany false visions should serve her storyline. And the whole reveal of grAegon is weird.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

If the blue rose crown was a sign from Raegar saying "hey im in" or "Aery sleeps with fishes roses" it confuses the hell out of me because you would assume the message was for Rickard Stark and well taking his daughter and having him go to kingslanding and getting killed along with his heir doesnt seem like a great plan to get the north behind you. Perhaps the blue winter rose is famous as a Stark symbol or as a symbol of the north and Raegar put it together to kinda show Lyanna hey i know you just kicked ass in the tourney and that was hot. thats my take on it and in no way am i saying this is my original idea

[King Tyrion XX]

I think Rhaegar would have to put Elia in the picture. 'This is business, not me trying it on with her' as he would know how it would be seen otherwise.

Blue Winter Roses. Unless Harrenhal had a nursery garden or perhaps they grew at the castle's woods. Possible the Starks brought things from Winterfell south, maybe a wagonload of things from the North and Winterfell as a contribution to the Tourney and maybe a display of their wealth/power/generosity.

And (tinfoil hat on) if Rhaegar wasn't as besotted with Lyanna as RL=J suggests, then we have '?L=J' and I like the idea of Arthur Dayne guarding Lyanna, then falling for her and if Jon is the next Sword of the Morning with Dawn and Lightbringer and all that, it might plug in nicely to a few other prophecies.

Wow yeah. It could have been as simple as the gathered Houses having things on display or many unique things from their area being for sale in the camps. Rhaegar just walks over and grabs blue roses that were brought by Starks or buys em.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Cat ASoS

Might this suggest Cat is resurrected in the manner she is (after being in water) because the Tully's have some link with water? By extension, could it mean Starks are resurrected through a link that happens to be represented in the crypts? Crack pottery...

Oh, I don't mean that Cat is actually in the crypts, or has anything to do with them - except in Jon's head. I do think that, subconsciously, the voice of disapproval he associates with his crypt dreams... the subconscious guilt he experiences when he imagines himself stealing his brothers' birthright... is Catelyn's voice. I think that becomes clear near the end of ASOS:

---------------

...Lord of Winterfell. I could be the Lord of Winterfell. My father's heir.

It was not Lord Eddard's face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn's. With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought, but brittle. She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here?

His friends were still out in the practice yard, but Jon was in no fit state to face them. He left the armory by the back, descending a steep flight of stone steps to the wormways, the tunnels that linked the castle's keeps and towers below the earth. It was short walk to the bathhouse, where he took a cold plunge to wash the sweat off and soaked in a hot stone tub. The warmth took some of the ache from his muscles and made him think of Winterfell's muddy pools, steaming and bubbling in the godswood. Winterfell, he thought. Theon left it burned and broken, but I could restore it. Surely his father would have wanted that, and Robb as well. They would never have wanted the castle left in ruins.

You can't be the Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born, he heard Robb say again. And the stone kings were growling at him with granite tongues. You do not belong here. This is not your place. When Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree, with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said… but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman's hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods.

(3.79, JON)

---------------

The stone kings speak with Catelyn's voice. Just as Robb's words to Jon in the practice yard were words repeated from his lady mother. And Jon imagines Lady Catelyn's look as unwelcoming as brittle iron laid across the stone kings' laps... denying him guest right. In this sense, I think the obstacle Jon must overcome (with respect to Winterfell, the crypts, and his sense of place) is more psychological than magical or metaphysical. The irony, of course, is that Catelyn herself is a Tully. Yet from Jon's POV, her authority as Lady Stark combines with (and compounds) his status as bastard/outsider to deny him a sense of belonging in his own home.

ETA: Gives a little added meaning to the title Lady Stoneheart... and note that the very first time we see Lady Stoneheart is not necessarily the ASOS Epilogue, but may actually be in chapter 10 of AGOT, during the scene in which Jon says goodbye to the unconscious Bran:

Lady Stark looked over. For a moment she did not seem to recognize him. Finally she blinked. "What are you doing here?" she asked in a voice strangely flat and emotionless.

"I came to see Bran," Jon said. "To say good-bye."

Her face did not change. Her long auburn hair was dull and tangled. She looked as though she had aged twenty years. "You've said it. Now go away."

Part of him wanted only to flee, but he knew that if he did he might never see Bran again. He took a nervous step into the room. "Please," he said.

Something cold moved in her eyes.

…"I wanted him to stay here with me," Lady Stark said softly.

Jon watched her, wary. She was not even looking at him. She was talking to him, but for a part of her, it was as though he were not even in the room.

"I prayed for it," she said dully. "He was my special boy. I went to the sept and prayed seven times to the seven faces of god that Ned would change his mind and leave him here with me. Sometimes prayers are answered."

Jon did not know what to say. "It wasn't your fault," he managed after an awkward silence.

Her eyes found him. They were full of poison. "I need none of your absolution, bastard."

Jon lowered his eyes. She was cradling one of Bran's hands. He took the other, squeezed it. Fingers like the bones of birds. "Good-bye," he said.

He was at the door when she called out to him. "Jon," she said. He should have kept going, but she had never called him by his name before. He turned to find her looking at his face, as if she were seeing it for the first time.

"Yes?" he said.

"It should have been you," she told him. Then she turned back to Bran and began to weep, her whole body shaking with the sobs...

(1.10, JON)

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Here's the memory of Robb's words in the practice yard. Note the emphasis on Catelyn as source:

He was almost ready to lower his blade and call a halt when Emmett feinted low and came in over his shield with a savage forehand slash that caught Jon on the temple. He staggered, his helm and head both ringing from the force of the blow. For half a heartbeat the world beyond his eyeslit was a blur.

And then the years were gone, and he was back at Winterfell once more, wearing a quilted leather coat in place of mail and plate. His sword was made of wood, and it was Robb who stood facing him, not Iron Emmett.

Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. "I'm Prince Aemon the Dragonknight," Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, "Well, I'm Florian the Fool." Or Robb would say, "I'm the Young Dragon," and Jon would reply, "I'm Ser Ryam Redwyne."

That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell."

I thought I had forgotten that. Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he'd taken.

In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm. The ranger sat on the ground dazed, his shield half in splinters, the visor of his helm knocked askew, and his sword six yards away. "Jon, enough," Halder was shouting, "he's down, you disarmed him. Enough!"

No. Not enough. Never enough. Jon let his sword drop.

(3.79, JON)

[wolfmaid7]

I like it.

But. Sorry I'll say But, even though I like that as an explanation.

It was so public, like jaw-droppingly public. All the smiles died and all that. However, only the Starks would have figured out the blue roses were directed at them personally, so. I do like it.

(Did you guys ever figure out how Harrenhal just happened to have blue roses as the laurel?)

I didn't and woudn't have expected hot headed Brandon to know anything but i'm sure he was going to go home and tell Rickard what was done.

As to the blue rose i've never heard of it blooming anywhere except Winterfell's garden so i'm assuming it came from Winterfell.

If the blue rose crown was a sign from Raegar saying "hey im in" or "Aery sleeps with fishes roses" it confuses the hell out of me because you would assume the message was for Rickard Stark and well taking his daughter and having him go to kingslanding and getting killed along with his heir doesnt seem like a great plan to get the north behind you. Perhaps the blue winter rose is famous as a Stark symbol or as a symbol of the north and Raegar put it together to kinda show Lyanna hey i know you just kicked ass in the tourney and that was hot. thats my take on it and in no way am i saying this is my original idea

This here is the crux of the problem and no matter what version one chooses it all comes down to Rhaegar running off or abducting Lyanna was not going to curry any lords favor and in fact makes him look like a douch to all.So what would make a man disguard plans and run off or abduct a girl he chance met once at a tourney.I think meeting Lyanna that faithful day was pure coinky dink and she revealed something to him that caused an "ah danm s**t moment but nevetheless something he could use.At that moment he had had to act and quick.

Nobody knew how bat shit crazy Aerys was,or paranoid and could not predict he would have executed Brandon and Rickard.By then it was all bad.