Heresy 152 [Spoilers]

[Joe Pine]

Actually we don't know that Jon and Arya won't be a thing.In a world where assassins change faces and individuals and glamours abounds "accidents" can happen.Check it,i can see Arya and Jon within the context of some supernatural situation like a glamour of a face change sleeping together.Being totally ashamedguilt ridden etc about it until it is revealed that they are'nt brother and sister lifting the shame of their act.Not saying it will happen only that it could happen.

Jon unknowingly bedding 'his sister' isn't much better. I think it would be controversial and as it's been said, it seems Ygritte served as Jon's love interest diverging from the letter/synopsis in a similar fashion to the Lannister changes.

Jon and Arya may reunite as kin, in terms of the resolution of the books and I guess a Jon/Arya/Sansa/Rickon Starks reunion is possible.

[Voice]

I agree. I wouldn't see Jon shagging Arya as a particular thing to look forward to as a conclusion.

On the 'Promise me' stuff we need a better pay off than just 'oh look it's RL=J, preferably something that makes sense of the Daynes, the ToJ stand off, Rhaegar's 'kidnap' of Lyanna and the whole fAegon/Dany as Targaryen heir stuff.

Big time.

I'm beginning to like the idea of Lyanna being used as a pawn in the game. Houses Stark, Arryn, and Tully decided they'd had enough of the Targaryen coin-flip commonwealth. They decided to do something about it.

Meanwhile, Rhaegar has also had enough of it. And during this same time, he has been entertaining less-than-loyal ideas of his own. "When the battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but ... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return." Rhaegar has the support of, at least, Houses Whent and Dayne, as evident in the "abduction."

As pointed out earlier, Rhaegar+Lyanna doesn't seem a logical next step for either Rhaegar or Lyanna during the time of simmering distrust that was the False Spring. Enter Varys, whose power grew from this distrust and the Mad King's well-deserved paranoia. Barristan said the rot in KL began when Robert pardoned Varys. How ironic if it was Varys himself who ensured Robert's Rebellion to take place, if only to keep the IT temporarily on ice while the next dragon matured. From the wiki:

As spymaster in King's Landing, Varys's influence grew with Aerys's paranoia, as he was quick to point out traitors and schemers to his liege. Varys mastered the secret passages within the Red Keep and made good use of them with his spy network, who became known as his little birds. He had them memorize the passages and come to him whenever one discovered something of importance. Notably, Varys alerted Aerys to the possibility that his son Rhaegar was using attendance at the Tourney at Harrenhal as a pretext to rally Lords to his cause in removing Aerys as king, causing Aerys to attend the tournament, the first time he had left the Red Keep in years since the Defiance of Duskendale.^[8]

Do any of us doubt Varys knew the North would soon be joining the trout and falcon in revolt? Do any of us doubt Varys would warn Aerys (like he did Cersei) with bit of intel, while simultaneously meddling in affairs (Illyrio, Tyrion)?

I know I might be drifting into lands of Always Tinfoil, but I can see Varys planning and enacting the folly of Rhaegar+Lyanna in such a way as for it to appear as an 'abduction' to encite would-be rebels, and as a 'romance' to consolidate loyalists.

Why would he? Well, it was asked who benefitted from RR. And House Lannister certainly did. But no one was playing sides as much as Varys. The man kept his head and his seat on the small council after betraying Rhaegar, Robert, and Aerys. Since then, he's betrayed Joffrey, Cersei, and killed Kevan personally without breaking a sweat.

[wolfmaid7]

Jon unknowingly bedding 'his sister' isn't much better. I think it would be controversial and as it's been said, it seems Ygritte served as Jon's love interest diverging from the letter/synopsis in a similar fashion to the Lannister changes.

Jon and Arya may reunite as kin, in terms of the resolution of the books and I guess a Jon/Arya/Sansa/Rickon Starks reunion is possible.

How so,please explain.Ygritte was Jon's love interest Arya is not and under that circumstance wouldn't be. It would just be something unfortunate that both of them might feel ashamed about eventhough they didn't know.The knowledge of them not being siblings might absolve them from that,but it doesn't mean they will be together. It would be controversial and sad that's the point.

But this wouldn't be a conclusion.Why would this be a conclusion. GRRM isn't going to waist his conclusion on this or even Jon's parentage.Are we taking "until Jon's parentage is revealed in the end" to lierally mean this will be the last thing he leaves us with??? Hell no.

[Joe Pine]

How so,please explain.Ygritte was Jon's love interest Arya is not and under that circumstance wouldn't be. It would just be something unfortunate that both of them might feel ashamed about eventhough they didn't know.The knowledge of them not being siblings might absolve them from that,but it doesn't mean they will be together. It would be controversial and sad that's the point.

But this wouldn't be a conclusion.Why would this be a conclusion. GRRM isn't going to waist his conclusion on this or even Jon's parentage.Are we taking "until Jon's parentage is revealed in the end" to lierally mean this will be the last thing he leaves us with??? Hell no.

Jon is torn throughout his time with the wildings, he enjoys their company, he wants Ygritte, but duty and his oath to the NW win out. It's the same arc, Mr Martin has used Ygritte and diverged from his initial plan, as he has in lots of ways.

Do you want a sentence with ' She arched her back and screamed "Stick me with the pointy bit, Jon!" From the final books? I wouldn't.

[MaesterSam]

Further proof that sometimes people embelish facts a "teenie bit".Howland was probably lacing up his boots .

Howland: " Alright there Ned,i just about got it,just one more sec."

Ned: "No no take your time Reed don't sweat it you know i got this. Dayne ain't s**t."

Clearly Ned recollection trumps the soldiers who.... em weren't there.

Oh yeah Ashara was alive in this rendition huh ,i guess that could explain Cersci telling Ned that Ashara killed herself because "Ned stole her baby."

I give the fellas from WF props for knowing how shut people up.Ashara's name got the Bael the Bard treatment.It went away quick.

LOL I bet that's what he was doing. Lacing up his boots. :lol:

Yes the Starks know how to shut people up. They also forgot the name of the NK, and the LH. So much for The North Remembers...

[wolfmaid7]

Jon is torn throughout his time with the wildings, he enjoys their company, he wants Ygritte, but duty and his oath to the NW win out. It's the same arc, Mr Martin has used Ygritte and diverged from his initial plan, as he has in lots of ways.

Do you want a sentence with ' She arched her back and screamed "Stick me with the pointy bit, Jon!" From the final books? I wouldn't.

Ehem i wasn't proposing any of a sort at all ,that ridiculous .Why would GRRM end an epic tale with that???? For that matter why would he end on a romantic tone anyway.As i said i read " until the end' not as the last thing of import in the book only it's another thing that would have needed to be resolved.

Again Jon had a romantic relationship with Ygritte to the point where he was considering making her his wife had she been alive.I am not proposing any such thing with Arya.This story has grown more detailed and what we have is just a synopsis of what GRRM had in 93.Arya is not a lady but an assassin in training that can change faces, if GRRM wanted to be controversial what do you think he can do with that? A lot.It's all about twisting things a bit.No Arya doesn't have to be a romantic interest for Jon but in the context of what we have available we can tweak it and make it an accidental encounter. And i'm not saying this would happen i'm saying this still could but reappear differently.

Lastly,just to drive this home it doesn't even have to be something that happenes in the end,it wouldn't work.It could just be something unfortunate that happened when Arya comes to Westeros.

LOL I bet that's what he was doing. Lacing up his boots. :lol:

Yes the Starks know how to shut people up. They also forgot the name of the NK, and the LH. So much for The North Remembers...

It is laughable for sure.What i wouldn't give to go through their library,just to see.

[JNR]

Yes the Starks know how to shut people up. They also forgot the name of the NK, and the LH.

And that the Popsicles really existed, and that they can be slain by dragonglass.

So much for The North Remembers...

The North has no idea where it left its car. The North is wandering around, level to level, in the mall parking garage.

Eventually it will find its car and drive home, and tomorrow morning the North will have no clue where it put the car keys.

Again.

[MaesterSam]

While his conscious thoughts seem to indicate sadness and guilt over Jon's situation, his subconscious seems to hint at a repressed horror over the promise that Lyanna extracted from him. His son, Bran seems to have the same issue when his subconscious brings him back to his fall from the tower.

Yes! His dreams have more of a nightmare feel to them, and he doesn't even remember anything that happened after he made the promise. (Nor does he ever acknowledge to himself what it was that he promised. He just keeps having dreams and flashbacks about that bloody room, and the rose petals. PTSD, anyone?)

We know he has lost sleep over it, and there was a price that he paid (or has been paying). And we know Lyanna had to beg. She cried and begged even though she was so very weak, and was SO relieved when he finally promised. Why would he make a dying girl cry and beg, unless it was something he'd really, really rather not promise to do?

Whatever happened in that room that smelled like blood and roses, it was extremely traumatic for Ned.

Tywin Lannister played the game of thrones to win (it's even in his name) and the way the game has evolved over the centuries (it's about a single throne now after all) to win is to be hand and your daughter to be married to the king/crown prince. Tywin wanted to win the game like Robar Baratheon, Otto Hightower or Brynden Rivers did before him and the Mad King denied him. But somehow Tywin managed to win in the end...

The feeling I got from the World Book and the sections leading up to the Tourney at Harrenhal is that somehow the Lannister's were much more involved, the whole Tywin-Aerys dynamic comes to its culmination at the tourney with Jaime's introduction into the King's Guard.

Maybe Tywin even had a sick satisfaction from the incest of his children. If the game is to put your blood on the throne isn't a full-blooded Lannister even better? A King with the purest Lannister blood in generations to start Lannister rule of the Seven Kingdoms in the new century.

:agree: It works very nicely from a motive standpoint, and Tywin also was influential enough to have pulled it off. It worked out very well for him and his family.

The one thing that it still doesn't explain is where were R and L during RR, why wouldn't they come out of hiding when they realized what was happening, and what were they doing during this time? Were they even together?

I could see Lyanna innocently being on the IoF or even Greywater Watch, where ravens don't fly, and having no idea that everyone is looking for her and thinks she has been abducted. She could have been visiting Howland, and they went to either of these places and "lost track of time." This obviously wouldn't account for a whole year unless she was kept there by someone.

I just can't find a reason to place Rhaegar in either of these places at this time. Remember it was winter when he rode out, so whatever it was he intended to do, it couldn't wait.

Jon unknowingly bedding 'his sister' isn't much better. I think it would be controversial and as it's been said, it seems Ygritte served as Jon's love interest diverging from the letter/synopsis in a similar fashion to the Lannister changes.

Jon and Arya may reunite as kin, in terms of the resolution of the books and I guess a Jon/Arya/Sansa/Rickon Starks reunion is possible.

Let me throw something out there. So the problem is that Arya is too young, right? And she's not really into love or romance. And she's far away.

It would be more plausible if she was a little older. A little more into guys. A little more... on Westeros. A little more likely to run into Jon in the near future. Ok. So what if all that were the case, and Arya was about to claim Winterfell for herself and come north? What if Jon were free from his NW vows (due to death or the Wall falling) and he married her, and Lord and Lady Stark rule from WF and do important things during the coming war?

All this is possible. If we make one little change to GRRM's original plan. All we have to do, is replace Arya with her sister. Who we already know has a "controversial" chapter coming up. :devil:

[MaesterSam]

Ehem i wasn't proposing any of a sort at all ,that ridiculous .Why would GRRM end an epic tale with that???? For that matter why would he end on a romantic tone anyway.As i said i read " until the end' not as the last thing of import in the book only it's another thing that would have needed to be resolved.

Again Jon had a romantic relationship with Ygritte to the point where he was considering making her his wife had she been alive.I am not proposing any such thing with Arya.This story has grown what we have is just a synopsis.Arya is not a lady but an assassin in training that can change faces if GRRM wanted to be controversial what do you think he can do with that? A lot.

It is laughable for sure.What i wouldn't give to go through their library,just to see.

Too bad the WF library was burned in AGOT. Guess that's one way to get rid of pesky historical facts....

[wolfmaid7]

All this is possible. If we make one little change to GRRM's original plan. All we have to do, is replace Arya with her sister. Who we already know has a "controversial" chapter coming up. :devil:

Word!! Easy peezy,lemon squeezy.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Jon is torn throughout his time with the wildings, he enjoys their company, he wants Ygritte, but duty and his oath to the NW win out. It's the same arc, Mr Martin has used Ygritte and diverged from his initial plan, as he has in lots of ways.

Do you want a sentence with ' She arched her back and screamed "Stick me with the pointy bit, Jon!" From the final books? I wouldn't.

Lol.

I think Arya and Jon will meet up at the wall or some such, but a romantic pairing I do not see. Love, yes. Sex, no. Jon is the only family whom she knows wher to find and he is the one who gave her Needle that has kept her grounded, aside from her wolf dreams. Of course with Arya's changes and Jon's probable changes coming soon, I see it as an eventually awkward reunion.

Of course there is Nymeria and Ghost to fall back on as a 'couple', and what a following Nym has for the ultimate canine army to unleash.

[JNR]

Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Arya beside him.

They look as though they belong together. Arya was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well ... but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.

"Have you been trying to steal my wolf?" he asked her.

"Why not? If every woman had a direwolf, men would be much sweeter. Even crows."

"Har!" laughed Tormund Giantsbane. "Don't bandy words with this one, Lord Snow, she's too clever for the likes o' you and me. Best steal her quick, before Toregg wakes up and takes her first."

What had that oaf Axell Florent said of Arya? "A nubile girl, not hard to look upon. Good hips, good breasts, well made for whelping children."

All true enough, but the wildling woman was so much more. She had proved that by finding Tormund where seasoned rangers of the Watch had failed. She may not be a princess, but she would make a worthy wife for any lord. But that bridge had been burned a long time ago, and Jon himself had thrown the torch.

"Toregg is welcome to her," he announced. "I took a vow."

"She won't mind. Will you, girl?"

Arya patted the long bone knife on her hip. "Lord Crow is welcome to steal into my bed any night he dares. Once he's been gelded, keeping those vows will come much easier for him."

[MaesterSam]

Big time.

I'm beginning to like the idea of Lyanna being used as a pawn in the game. Houses Stark, Arryn, and Tully decided they'd had enough of the Targaryen coin-flip commonwealth. They decided to do something about it.

Meanwhile, Rhaegar has also had enough of it. And during this same time, he has been entertaining less-than-loyal ideas of his own. "When the battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but ... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return." Rhaegar has the support of, at least, Houses Whent and Dayne, as evident in the "abduction."

As pointed out earlier, Rhaegar+Lyanna doesn't seem a logical next step for either Rhaegar or Lyanna during the time of simmering distrust that was the False Spring. Enter Varys, whose power grew from this distrust and the Mad King's well-deserved paranoia. Barristan said the rot in KL began when Robert pardoned Varys. How ironic if it was Varys himself who ensured Robert's Rebellion to take place, if only to keep the IT temporarily on ice while the next dragon matured. From the wiki:

As spymaster in King's Landing, Varys's influence grew with Aerys's paranoia, as he was quick to point out traitors and schemers to his liege. Varys mastered the secret passages within the Red Keep and made good use of them with his spy network, who became known as his little birds. He had them memorize the passages and come to him whenever one discovered something of importance. Notably, Varys alerted Aerys to the possibility that his son Rhaegar was using attendance at the Tourney at Harrenhal as a pretext to rally Lords to his cause in removing Aerys as king, causing Aerys to attend the tournament, the first time he had left the Red Keep in years since the Defiance of Duskendale.^[8]

Do any of us doubt Varys knew the North would soon be joining the trout and falcon in revolt? Do any of us doubt Varys would warn Aerys (like he did Cersei) with bit of intel, while simultaneously meddling in affairs (Illyrio, Tyrion)?

I know I might be drifting into lands of Always Tinfoil, but I can see Varys planning and enacting the folly of Rhaegar+Lyanna in such a way as for it to appear as an 'abduction' to encite would-be rebels, and as a 'romance' to consolidate loyalists.

Why would he? Well, it was asked who benefitted from RR. And House Lannister certainly did. But no one was playing sides as much as Varys. The man kept his head and his seat on the small council after betraying Rhaegar, Robert, and Aerys. Since then, he's betrayed Joffrey, Cersei, and killed Kevan personally without breaking a sweat.

I agree with much of this, and will buy it all if you can tell me where he stuck R and L that they wouldn't be found, and how he got them to go along with it (or managed to hold on to them for so long with neither of them telling anyone about it after they escaped/were freed).

But yes, most of this makes a lot of sense and Varys is always a possibility b/c he's been around forever and nobody has a freaking clue what it is he wants. He knows everything, and knowledge is power.

I would add a couple of items. I think we can safely say Rhaegar could also count on the support of the Martells, and the Conningtons. And Tywin had publicly said (at Duskendale) that Rhaegar would be a better king than Aerys, so maybe he could have had the Lannisters as well.

A note on the alliance building: poor Tywin wanted to participate too, but Aerys wouldn't let him. Jaime was supposed to marry Lysa Tully, but then he was made a KG and she ended up with Jon Arryn. (Wow, no wonder Lysa is a little bitter. That was a crappy deal for her!)

Was Aerys disrupting the Lannister-Tully alliance on purpose?

[Voice]

I agree with much of this, and will buy it all if you can tell me where he stuck R and L that they wouldn't be found, and how he got them to go along with it (or managed to hold on to them for so long with neither of them telling anyone about it after they escaped/were freed).

But yes, most of this makes a lot of sense and Varys is always a possibility b/c he's been around forever and nobody has a freaking clue what it is he wants. He knows everything, and knowledge is power.

I would add a couple of items. I think we can safely say Rhaegar could also count on the support of the Martells, and the Conningtons. And Tywin had publicly said (at Duskendale) that Rhaegar would be a better king than Aerys, so maybe he could have had the Lannisters as well.

A note on the alliance building: poor Tywin wanted to participate too, but Aerys wouldn't let him. Jaime was supposed to marry Lysa Tully, but then he was made a KG and she ended up with Jon Arryn. (Wow, no wonder Lysa is a little bitter. That was a crappy deal for her!)

Was Aerys disrupting the Lannister-Tully alliance on purpose?

If so, he was likely acting on Varys' counsel. I also lay much of this nation-building at the feet of Jon Arryn. As we open the front cover and turn the first pages, Jon Arryn is conveniently dead. It is easy to let hidden secrets remain hidden as long as they are buried with someone as influential as Jon Arryn. I have nothing to base it on, but I have a hunch Varys played Jon like a fiddle. I'd also put my money on Varys being behind Rhaegar's success in the tourney at Harrenhal. In TMK novella, we are introduced to the idea of rigged tourneys. I doubt Varys was ignorant of such techniques.

Once the pieces were in place, it actually wouldn't require much manipulation. Enter Whent and Dayne who "escorted" Lyanna to a place not of her choosing. Perhaps this was to teach the bad wolf a lesson at the urging of Aerys. Perhaps not. Either way, such a ploy would allow Rhaegar to be like the princes he'd read about, and charge in and save the fair maid.

This alone would be enough to let the rebels justify their means and give Robert enough to form his alternate-reality because now he wants to save the "maiden." It would also be enough for loyalists to continue their own biased view. All Rhaegar would have to do is say he loved her, and the seed is planted for loyalists.

As to where Varys might hide them, he's Varys! He is nothing if not a smuggler of Targaryen heirs to the throne. He could hide a Targaryen prince in his sleep! He's already tittered at the difficulty of escorting a camp follower back and forth to the most conspicuous noble in Westeros. A wolf among the reeds seems simpler still.

[Mace Cooterian]

Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Arya beside him.

They look as though they belong together. Arya was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well ... but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.

"Have you been trying to steal my wolf?" he asked her.

"Why not? If every woman had a direwolf, men would be much sweeter. Even crows."

"Har!" laughed Tormund Giantsbane. "Don't bandy words with this one, Lord Snow, she's too clever for the likes o' you and me. Best steal her quick, before Toregg wakes up and takes her first."

What had that oaf Axell Florent said of Arya? "A nubile girl, not hard to look upon. Good hips, good breasts, well made for whelping children."

All true enough, but the wildling woman was so much more. She had proved that by finding Tormund where seasoned rangers of the Watch had failed. She may not be a princess, but she would make a worthy wife for any lord. But that bridge had been burned a long time ago, and Jon himself had thrown the torch.

"Toregg is welcome to her," he announced. "I took a vow."

"She won't mind. Will you, girl?"

Arya patted the long bone knife on her hip. "Lord Crow is welcome to steal into my bed any night he dares. Once he's been gelded, keeping those vows will come much easier for him."

Exactly and well done. I can make that whole scenario work with Val from the current text, or substitute Arya and tie in the 1993 letter and the triology concept.

:thumbsup:

[Armstark]

A note on the alliance building: poor Tywin wanted to participate too, but Aerys wouldn't let him. Jaime was supposed to marry Lysa Tully, but then he was made a KG and she ended up with Jon Arryn. (Wow, no wonder Lysa is a little bitter. That was a crappy deal for her!)

Was Aerys disrupting the Lannister-Tully alliance on purpose?

I think Cersei's plot to have Jaime take the white cloak has Varys written all over it. At one point she says that she trusted Varys in her first years in King's Landing which would be about that time. The plot of course has the benefit of making Cersei the de facto heir to the Rock so Varys could easily have played her ambitions.

I think Tywin arrived at a crossroads at Harrenhal when the second of his marriage plans failed. He couldn't marry Cersei to Rhaegar and put Lannister blood on the throne but he also couldn't join the growing faction of potential rebel Lords. Plus he had no viable heir for the Rock anymore (in his eyes at least).

In light of what I said earlier of the Game of Thrones I wonder if the 'southron ambitions' were to put Robert Baratheon on the throne and make Lyanna a Queen. Robert was the 4th. male in line to the throne anyways and could make a claim at a great council for example. If Rhaegar dies Robert would have to content with a child with already obvious signs of madness and a babe at the breasts for the throne. With the great alliance of Tully, Stark, Arryn and Baratheon at his back who could withstand him?

Maybe this is the reason Aerys demanded Robert Baratheon.

[Morrigan's Raven]

The North has no idea where it left its car. The North is wandering around, level to level, in the mall parking garage.

Eventually it will find its car and drive home, and tomorrow morning the North will have no clue where it put the car keys.

Again.

*snort* My tea came out my nose!

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

...Maybe this is the reason Aerys demanded Robert Baratheon.

Good post, Armstark. Not sure I'm convinced - but the lack of an explanation for Aerys' demanding Robert's head has always puzzled me, and I appreciate any attempt to account for it. It's one of many indications that we lack full information on the Rebellion and its historical/political context. :cheers:

.

[Mace Cooterian]

New subject.

Was there an undisclosed reason why the widow Dustin, whose husband died fighting with Ned at the tower, and who says she hates the Starks, wanted to be shown the crypts?

I believe it's purely a means of getting revenge on Eddard for not returning her's husband's bones (William Dustin) from the tower of joy. He was one of the eight cairns. As she stated to Theon (ADWD, Chapter 41 - The Turncloak); if Eddard's bones ever make it north of the neck, she intended to make sure that they are never put to rest in the Crypt at Winterfell. Those Barrowland women sure know how to hold a grudge!

Side note: I don't believe she is looking for anything else, such as a mouldy parchment a.k.a. Jon Snows birth certificate.

[MaesterSam]

Oh yeah, meant to post this earlier. I think many of us picture Jon as he is in the show (at least I do), but here is the actual description of him and Robb:

“The deserter died bravely,” Robb said. He was big and broad and growing every day, with his mother’s coloring, the fair skin, red-brown hair, and blue eyes of the Tullys of Riverrun. “He had courage, at the least.”

“No,” Jon Snow said quietly. “It was not courage. This one was dead of fear. You could see it in his eyes, Stark.” Jon’s eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.

So Jon is dark (eyes, skin, hair) and on the small/petite side (compared to Robb).

This may narrow down potential fathers a bit. For example, a Stark (brown hair, brown or gray eyes) crossed with silver hair and purple eyes probably won't give you the half-Dornish look that makes Ned's bastard story so believable. ;)