Heresy 152 [Spoilers]

[Eira Seren]

A thought experiment, which may be worth your while:

History is written by the victor(s). And our primary source for the idea that "R+L"... is Robert Baratheon. He's tall. He's formidable in battle. He's the king, after he takes out the Targs. And most of all... he's dumber than a bag of hammers.

So, what if he's wrong? What if he's completely off-base with his memory / assumption of what happened to Lyanna, back in the day - and always was? We don't know what evidence he had to convince him she was kidnapped. In fact, it's dubitable that he would have required evidence at all - so perhaps we shouldn't assume there was any to begin with.

If Robert (the "victor," in a direct sense) were eliminated as a source for the argument that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna Stark... then what independent evidence for that story would remain to us? Would there be any at all? Would it be convincing, in any way, of the notion that R+L=J?

I would read this post just before sleep. This requires that we undo a lot of what we know, right down to the first moments of our introduction to Lyanna, at her tomb, in the crypts, and right down to Bran's recollection of her story (as you note, the official version). And pretty much throws out the World Book, too, come to that, considering the 'audience' it was intended for. That leaves us with. . . a fever dream. A mention by Selmy that Rhaegar loved her. Ned's mention that she was wild, and not enthralled with Robert's promiscuity. An allegorical story in which a wolf maid sniffles over a sad song. A story about how Brandon went to KL and made silly demands and got himself and his father killed. . .

[Voice]

I would read this post just before sleep. This requires that we undo a lot of what we know, right down to the first moments of our introduction to Lyanna, at her tomb, in the crypts, and right down to Bran's recollection of her story (as you note, the official version). And pretty much throws out the World Book, too, come to that, considering the 'audience' it was intended for. That leaves us with. . . a fever dream. A mention by Selmy that Rhaegar loved her. Ned's mention that she was wild, and not enthralled with Robert's promiscuity. An allegorical story in which a wolf maid sniffles over a sad song. A story about how Brandon went to KL and made silly demands and got himself and his father killed. . .

Which is hard to swallow since the 'official version' makes so much more sense... ;)

[Voice]

Hey, it's a bit late, but there's a new pic of Lemore

[Lost Books]

This poor lurker is several Heresy pages behind, and confesses that this is only tangential to RLJ, but...

From Heresy 151, with regard to Septa Lemore: in addition to failing to note stunning purple eyes, Tyrion also suggests to us that Lemore is at least 40, which likely makes her 10-15 years too old to be Ashara Dayne. There is however a woman in that age range who, per the World Book, had spent significant time with Septas; who has given birth to at least two children, and who would certainly be a Targ loyalist; and whose purpose could be to provide not only "instruction in the Faith" to (f)Aegon, but to confirm his identity as well?

I'm away from my books at the moment and so cannot recheck the relevant Dany chapter etc, but is Daenerys's memory (or rather what she has been told) the only confirmation we have regarding Rhaella Targaryen's death?

[corbon]

This poor lurker is several Heresy pages behind, and confesses that this is only tangential to RLJ, but...

From Heresy 151, with regard to Septa Lemore: in addition to failing to note stunning purple eyes, Tyrion also suggests to us that Lemore is at least 40, which likely makes her 10-15 years too old to be Ashara Dayne.

1. Tyrion is a man making a guess at a middle aged woman's age. You know, that famously difficult thing to do safely? And he's a character GRRM has purposefully shown us guessing ages of other characters wrong definitely one, almost certainly two, other times.

Lemore is 'middle aged', somewhere likely between mid-30s and mid 50s most likely.

2. Ashara's age is unknown, though GRRM says she would be in her 30s by current time frame. At Harrenhal, nearing 20 years before current time frame, Ashara Dayne was a companion to the married-with-kids Elia Martell (not an ideal position for a very young teenager to fill), intimidating 18 year old Ned Stark, having mid 40s Barristan falling in love with her and hanging out with 20ish prime beef Brandon Stark, 20-something Jon Connington, her mid 20s older brother+, and the 16ish Red Viper of Dorne, already famous for having killed a man in a duel over a woman. Chances are she was in the higher teens then rather than lower teens. That would make her mid-late 30s by now.

Thats overlap with Lemore's potential age, and within a handful of years of Tyrion's estimate at worst even if he is accurate.

There is however a woman in that age range who, per the World Book, had spent significant time with Septas; who has given birth to at least two children, and who would certainly be a Targ loyalist; and whose purpose could be to provide not only "instruction in the Faith" to (f)Aegon, but to confirm his identity as well?

I'm away from my books at the moment and so cannot recheck the relevant Dany chapter etc, but is Daenerys's memory (or rather what she has been told) the only confirmation we have regarding Rhaella Targaryen's death?

Rhaella would be in her mid 60s by now. I don't think Lemore is quite that old, even if it technically fits within Tyrion's guess (which is open-ended upwards)

Oops, sorry, thats just terrible math by me. She would be in her mid 50s.

Still, its a fair stretch, and on no real data of its own and real reason to discount the data we do have.

I am not arguing Aerys was sane. His actions were bound to cause an uproar (haha, fire~uproar), such is the fate of those who abide a monarchy. You get to rejoice under a gentle king, and cower beneath a tyrant. If the king demands your head, it is treason to deny him. Brandon calling for the crown prince to come out and die, is also treason.

Robert called the banners of men sworn to him as the Lord of Storm's End, against the King of the Seven Kingdoms, to which they have all pledged their allegiance. That, is treason. Subjects of the king do not have the privilege of only being loyal when the king is behaving rationally or reasonably, and then justly evade his justice and sentence when they fall on the wrong side of it.

Would I have done the same in his position? In a heartbeat... But, that doesn't legitimize or legalize the rebellion.

Being the victor of his rebellion, Robert holds the quill, and may rewrite history any way he likes. We hold a copy of one such tome, called the World Book ;)

I think that largely depends on the way the culture perceives the role of the monarchy. I get the impression you are thinking of the divine right of kings style of thought that came much later to western european cultures on which Westeros seems largely modeled.

I think Westeros has a much more classically feudalistic system where there are reciprocal responsibilities between the King and his great Lords, just as there are between the great lords and their lesser lords and along down the line.

When the king calls for the head of a Great Lord, with no reason, he has broken his compact and I'm not entirely sure its clearly treason to refuse to submit. Stannis after all wrestled long and hard with this problem. I think if Robert was clearly in the wrong, Stannis would have found it easy to back the King over his brother. I think it was because the King had broken his 'compact' with Robert that Stannis found it such a difficult decision.

[Black Crow]

Quite, and of course that was the ultimate cause of the English Civil War in the 17th Century which pitted a monarch wedded to the notion of the divine right of kings against a fractious coalition of nobles and politicians who were far from blameless in themselves but united in their opposition to arbitrary despotism of the style practiced by Aerys.

What is ironic here and perhaps offers an interesting wrinkle to what may actually have been going on is that if Rhaegar really was engaged in a conspiracy to depose or at the very least restrain Aerys, then his co-conspirators and would-be supporters are more than likely those very same nobles who then rose under Robert.

[King Tyrion XX]

Well if you are serious about being open for new ideas...

We are given every indication that Lyanna is more like Arya than Sansa, yet no one has any issue with the idea of Lyanna falling head over heels for a married man because he dropped a crown of roses in her lap. If Lyanna was like Sansa yes, but if she is like Arya, doubtful. Arya would have more in common with a butcher's boy than a crowned prince or in this case, I think with a funny little crannogman, whom unlike Rhaegar she actually develops a relationship with.

Lyanna comes to Howland's rescue with a tourney sword, brings him back to her family, and tends his wounds. Then probably inspired by a song of love, honor and a mystery knight, dons her Knight of the Laughing Tree disguise and defends Howland's honor in the tourney. Despite all of this, the reader never thinks to connect the two as a romantic relationship. Now let's reverse their genders, if Princess Reed was being beset by some hooligans and Ser Stark came to her rescue, brought her back to his family, tended her wounds and then fought for her honor in the tourney, wouldn't the reader perhaps wonder if there may be a romantic relationship blooming between the two? But Martin easily disguises this by relying on the reader's natural assumptions about romantic pairings in a fantasy series. The stud who wins the tourney and gives the lady a crown must be the romantic partner right? Even though there has been no actual real relationship develop between the two.

Rhaegar then returns to his island fortress to be present for the birth of his child, whom he labels the Prince that was Promised. In the meantime what was Lyanna up to? Is it possible that she maintains her relationship with Howland during the intervening months? We also know that when Rhaegar and his six friends finally head to the Riverlands to locate Lyanna she is ten leagues from Harrenhall. Now this is three months (at least) after the Harrenhal tourney, what is Lyanna still doing there? My guess is if Lyanna wanted to follow her heart as opposed to her father's political plans for her then she and Howland could have been secretly married in front of a weirwood. Now it just so happens that in the middle of the lake adjacent to Harrenhal, is the Isle of Faces with a number of Weirwoods who have had practice in witnessing a pact. Howland brings her to the Isle of Faces and marry in front of the same Weirwoods that initially witnessed the pact between the First Men and the Children. My guess is this is the island where Lyanna conceives Jon (and Meera), and after they leave the Isle, perhaps is when Rhaegar and company come upon her (and possibly Howland). Which may be why Brandon is convinced that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna.

Now why abduct Lyanna? I have a feeling that Rhaegar prior to the tourney realized that she is integral in his song of ice and fire, but may not have realized exactly why. He may have believed that it was his duty to be the father to her child and this child was part of the prophecies that he and some of his coconspirators are trying to bring about (or stop). It wasn't until the Harrenhall tourney that he may have come to the conclusion that Howland is to be the father as opposed to him. (My guess is he may have spied something to make him come to this conclusion when he went out to try and locate the Mystery Knight).

Now a key part to this theory is what exactly is the Prince that was Promised and the song of ice and fire? Like most major events in this series I think it involves human sacrifice. I think Lyanna was brought to the tower and guarded not because Jon is the legal Targaryen heir (which he is surely not) but because he is a prophesized King of the Corn variety. My guess is Rhaegar had originally intended on sacrificing Aegon as well (the dragon requires three heads but that's another theory) and named Lyanna's tower the tower of joy when he learned that she gave birth to twins because this perhaps let his son off the hook as a sacrifice. Which is why when Eddard learns what Rhaegar and company had planned for the children, has such trouble coming to grips with it and why it haunts his dreams. So Eddard and Howland decide to split the two children up, Howland takes Meera with him to Greywater Watch while Eddard takes Jon to Winterfell (protecting children by splitting them up is a theme echoed in at least two other places in the books).

This is also why the Reed's oath of ice and fire echoes the song of ice and fire that Rhaegar was trying to bring about. Interestingly enough, when Jon and Meera do get close to each other at the Queen's crown tower, we get quite the thunderstorm.

This may also explain why Alfie Allen describes Jon's parentage as a Luke Skywalker situation not because Rhaegar is akin to Vader but because Luke and Leiah were twins who were split up for their own protection.

Now I would like to tell BC that Targaryen lineage is completely uninvolved but I have a sneaking suspicion that it may come into play, (like a dragonfly amongst the Reeds). I think Jon may be the first born son of the first born son of Aegon V, but that is another theory for another day.

I think Jon'a introduction to Mance is a Luke Skywalker situation.

[King Tyrion XX]

A side note and interesting fact about the TOJ and the "naming" of it. The text we do have concerning that reads thus:

"It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory."

As seen from Ned's statement all that is known was Rhaegar calling the place "tower of joy."There is no indication of when he might have called it that in relation to anything having to do with Lyanna or events at that time.There also seems to be a common place attituide about the name it was something that people said.Who said so and when :dunno:

But it seems prudent not to jump and associate Rhaegar naming the place because of Lyanna.It may have had good memories for him i have no doubt but what those memories are.We can't say.

Also "it was said" Rhaegar named it doesn't mean he did.

So the correct response to "Why would Rhaegar name it the Tower of Joy"? is "We don't know if he did name it or not".

[MaesterSam]

I am fully aware of the difference and the spelling.But thank you for correcting my typo :rolleyes:

There is just somethings that sings BS and at best those we would consider "inner circle" should have been asking some type of question.Whatever may have been believed about Lyanna and Rhaegar running away or him raping her aside.They go missing,were said to be at the Tower of Joy she dies under mysterious circumstances.Your besty comes back from area where she was said to have died with a babe he claimes to be his and you don't ask questions.Really????? One would expect the wider community to swallow such tales.

That Rhaegar and Lyanna were together romantically is something i think get blown up. He crowning her doesn't imply a hook up.We have repeated texts about what Rhaegar and Robert felt or may have felt we het nothing from her .

However,I have to give Robert his due for being a passionate man,he was sure broken up about a girl he hardly knew.I mean he was really really broken up about it. That scene in the crypts was right in the feels for a man relationship was a "blue rose" (figment).

The crowning does not imply a hook up- but the baby does. ;) You are right though, we don't know if it was consensual. I assume so only b/c I see Lyanna as similar to Arya, and when it comes to love making I would place Arya in the same category as a wildling woman: yes you can steal and rape her, but you better watch out or she'll slit your throat while you're sleeping.

We also don't know for sure that Jon is Rhaegar's baby. As some of us are questioning the more established assumptions, I think we have to consider that over the year and a half that she was missing, Lyanna may have had access to other men. (More and more I suspect Howland Reed was involved. They met at Harrenhal, and Lyanna would have been fascinated by his stories and the IoF. Coincidentally, she also disappeared from near the Isle. Hmmm.)

The only "evidence" we have that she ever even saw Rhaegar comes from whoever told the story initially ("the witness"), and the fact that they were both missing for a while. However, Rhaegar reappears before the battle of the Ruby Ford - he gathers up the remnants of the royal forces, waits for the Dornish host to arrive, then rides to the Trident, etc. So he showed back up about 2 months before the presumed TOJ incident, while Lyanna remained hidden. If we assume she was not at the TOJ, and not guarded by the KG, there is only circumstantial evidence (and presumably a witness account) linking her disappearance to Rhaegar.

Again, can anyone confirm or deny that Lyanna was definitely found in Dorne? I know several POVs have confirmed that Ned returned from Dorne with a baby, and that the TOJ is in the south, with Ned's dream seeing Dorne's red mountains behind it. But are we really sure Lyanna was found there, whether in the TOJ or Starfall? If Ned were riding to Dorne to free his captured sister, would he not assume she would be guarded, and would he not bring more than 6 men? There was a whole army at his disposal, why only 6 companions?

Precisely. Robert's version of events makes him into the knight in shining armor; riding off to win back the hand of the maiden fair he loves. He speaks of an imagined reality, as if it were real, because he won. And being the king, his word is law. That makes it real.

Rebellion can always be dressed up as noble, once it is won. Otherwise, it's egocentric terrorism (see: Greyjoy's Rebellion).

Meanwhile, back in the real world... Robert was a chauvanistic womanizer, turned traitor, prone to bouts of masochism and drunkenness, who went on to incite treason because his pride was bruised. Robert doesn't seem the type to own up to his shortcomings. Even in the end, on his deathbed, he wanted Ned to watch over Joffrey until he could sit the throne. Despite knowing "his son" was a monster, his pride wanted Ned to sit him upon it.

Funny, I'm usually the guy defending Robert on these forums. Now I can't think of why LOL

Well the king did demand his and Ned's heads even though they hadn't done anything. Brandon maybe was asking for it (wolf's blood and all...) but Rickard was summoned to KL and then killed. Yes you can technically say any action against your king is treason, but then this applies to every rebellion in all of history. As far as rebellions go, I'd say this one was more justified than most.

Honestly, I think Robert's main delusion is the belief that Lyanna returned his feelings. He looooves Ned, and Lyanna was his little sister, who by all accounts was fun and also quite pretty. I don't see any reason to think he didn't love her - although love of course is a vague term.

[Black Crow]

Who said that Rhaegar called it the tower of joy has always been the question. It clearly doesn't crop in in the dodgy dream sequence, so who said it? Who told Eddard?

That being said I remain wary of over-analysing a lot of this stuff. GRRM has very firmly told us that it was a dream and not to be taken literally, it doesn't even have the status of an unreliable narrator and I think all that we can be sure of is that Ned and his gang met the King boys in a rencounter up by the tower and had a pretty desperate fight which left all but two of them dead and that the survivors had the tower torn down afterwards to raise memorial cairns over the fallen - which suggests that whatever the reason for fighting it wasn't personal.

There's a very detailed dialogue to go with this, which may be accurate, or bearing in mind GRRM's warning may only have happened in Lord Eddard's head.

Then we have Lyanna, dying in her bed of blood, which is certainly connected with the fight but on balance taking into account both the circumstances and the dream itself, as well as GRRM's warning, should not be assumed to be occurring at the same time and place, hence the widely held belief in these here parts that she died at Starfall.

On a superficial reading of the dream its very easy to treat it as a straightforward narrative, but if we do so then there is no mystery as to Jon Snow's parents. Lyanna we are told right at the beginning, was kidnapped and raped and died down south. In the dream Ned fights and kills the Kings Guard, Rhaegar's own men, outside a tower which he afterwards recalls hearing Rhaegar had named the tower of joy. And then we have Lyanna, in that same dream, dying in a bed of blood - a phrase repeated used elsewhere as a metaphor for childbed.

Really, it is so bleeding obvious that there is absolutely no need for the intricate "textual analysis" so beloved of the faithful in another place. It really is as subtle as the proverbial train-crash and the only reason that non-book reading viewers have never cottoned on is because the scene was never included in the show.

So if it is that obvious, why is it still a mystery and why did GRRM issue that warning that the scene was not to be taken literally. In all seriousness although we've speculated as to who else may have been Jon's father, Rhaegar Targaryen still looks the most likely, but as we've seen in the two synopses GRRM appears to have intended the purpose of the identity business to have been to facilitate Jon and Arya getting it on as cousins rather than siblings and that so far as that outcome is concerned its far more important that Jon is the son of Lyanna rather than the son of a Targaryen upstart*, I think therefore that GRRM's warning is not a question of back-pedalling on Jon's identity but rather an attempt to rein in the fevered speculation arising not from R+L=J per se but rather the Kings Guard + Tower + Lyanna in childbed = King Jon Targaryen and a return of the king resolution to the story which is markedly absent from the synopses.

* given that the Starks have been Kings and Lords in Westeros for upwards of 8-10,000 years depending on which authority you prefer, a "dynasty" resident in Westeros for a bare 300 years are upstarts by anybody's definition.

[Matthew.]

Who said that Rhaegar called it the tower of joy has always been the question. It clearly doesn't crop in in the dodgy dream sequence, so who said it? Who told Eddard?

Non-combatant Dornish present within the tower? People at Starfall? Lyanna herself? As you say, it's a dream, so we have no idea how full a conversation Ned was able to have with Lyanna before her death.

Really, it is so bleeding obvious that there is absolutely no need for the intricate "textual analysis" so beloved of the faithful in another place. It really is as subtle as the proverbial train-crash and the only reason that non-book reading viewers have never cottoned on is because the scene was never included in the show.

Well, then I guess I'm a pretty unobservant reader, because I didn't come away from aGoT thinking that Lyanna was Jon's mother; in fact, Jon's parentage wasn't even on my radar as a mystery that needed solving, despite the disproportionate scrutiny that fans give it.

When the ToJ dream sequence came along, I considered it a brief and interesting glimpse into history, then it gave it no further thought, because I was more engrossed in the present day story. AGOT, in particular, is a real page turner, with shorter chapters (relative to the current volumes) and a sense of tension and momentum in the second half of the story, so there's a lot of things that could be easily missed on a first read through.

[MaesterSam]

Ok so I just came upon another inconsistency I wanted to share. Only very slightly off topic.

Here is Dany's account of Rhaella and Viserys' flight to DS:

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship’s black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King’s Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper’s dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar’s heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes.

And here is Jaime's account:

The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him. A king has no secrets from his Kingsguard. Relations between Aerys and his queen had been strained during the last years of his reign. They slept apart and did their best to avoid each other during the waking hours. But whenever Aerys gave a man to the flames, Queen Rhaella would have a visitor in the night. The day he burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. “You’re hurting me,” they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. “You’re hurting me.” In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted’s screaming. “We are sworn to protect her as well,” Jaime had finally been driven to say. “We are,” Darry allowed, “but not from him.”

Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that, the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone. The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon’s High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts. A crowned beast, Jaime knew.

Doesn't sound like a midnight flight to me... :dunno:

Add this to the other problems with Dany's childhood memories, and more and more it seems Viserys was making things up. Or misremembering. Many already suspect Dany spent her early years in Dorne, not Braavos, due to the lemon tree and the memories of playing outside barefoot, when Braavos is cold, wet and foggy. So what else is not true?

Unless of course, the cloaked and hooded woman was not actually Rhaella. Jaime doesn't mention Viserys being with her. Maybe the real Rhaella and Viserys did run away in the night, and this woman leaving the next morning was someone else?

[PrettyPig]

Re: the tower of joy location: I'm not convinced that the whole Prince's Pass thing isn't simply fan creation built up to absolute fact over the years, with GRRM now completely unable to rectify the assumption at this point in the game without giving away a significant portion of the upcoming story.

I mentioned a few Heresies ago that "the red mountains of Dorne at their backs" could techincally apply to Summerhall. Look at a map.

ETA: While I enjoy parsing out the details of the Jon's Mystery Parentage Conundrum and trying to un-weave the GRRM web surrounding the backstory, I'm with BC in that overall the "who" isn't going to be that important. Rhaegar, Aerys, Mance, Howland.....whatever. What's infinitely more fascinating is the "why" (if you don't cotton to Twoo Wuv, anyway) - and I think the "why" is going to boil down to some kind of intermingling of the ancient legends....the song of Ice and Fire for sure, but in a far more broad and elemental way and not Jon Snow becoming the Greatest Westerosian Hero thanks to his mama and papa.

I also believe that regarding the "what" of Lya and the ToJ and the secrecy of promise me and all that, in the end we're going to circle back to the gist of that 1993 synopsis that pits the Starks against the Lannisters. If there is Targaryen involved in the mystery, it's peripheral.....they aren't the major threat now and they weren't during RR either. Twenty years ago GRRM peddled the idea with the real enmity between Wolf and Lion, and I think we'll see that despite numerous changes and shifts in arc, he's going to keep it that way.

[Urrax2]

...Being the victor of his rebellion, Robert holds the quill, and may rewrite history any way he likes. We hold a copy of one such tome, called the World Book ;)

Treason never prospers; what's the reason?

Why, if it prosper, none dare call it treason.

[Black Crow]

I also believe that regarding the "what" of Lya and the ToJ and the secrecy of promise me and all that, in the end we're going to circle back to the gist of that 1993 synopsis that pits the Starks against the Lannisters. If there is Targaryen involved in the mystery, it's peripheral.....they aren't the major threat now and they weren't during RR either. Twenty years ago GRRM peddled the idea with the real enmity between Wolf and Lion, and I think we'll see that despite numerous changes and shifts in arc, he's going to keep it that way.

Its an interesting thought, especially given that this is chapter 39 of AGoT and therefore not too far removed in time from that original synopsis. There was as I recall some kind of plot to have Elia set aside [or worse] and replaced by Cersei so that a Lannister would be Rhaegar's queen. That came to fruition in the end by marrying her to Rhaegar's killer, Robert Baratheon. But what of Lyanna and those Southron ambitions? Was it common knowledge [or at least believed] that Elia was dying and consequently both Starks and Lannisters were secretly in competition to replace her - after all as I said above the fact that Rhaegar died fighting the rebels on the Trident shouldn't blind us to the point that if Rhaegar was really engaged in a conspiracy to bring in freedom, democracy and the American way of life his co-conspirators were more than likely those self same lords who rallied behind Trouserless Bob.

So yes, the "promise me" and the secrecy may well have related to the threat from the Lannisters rather than Bob.

[Matthew.]

Re: the tower of joy location: I'm not convinced that the whole Prince's Pass thing isn't simply fan creation built up to absolute fact over the years, with GRRM now completely unable to rectify the assumption at this point in the game without giving away a significant portion of the upcoming story.

Quite a few maps, including official ones, show it to be near Prince's Pass. The map of Dorne in the WB is a bit more 'zoomed in' than most maps, and makes it look as though the ToJ is in the midst of the red mountains, rather than being right next to Prince's Pass, so it's location might have been quite inconspicuous.

[MaesterSam]

Ok so I just came upon another inconsistency I wanted to share. Only very slightly off topic.

Here is Dany's account of Rhaella and Viserys' flight to DS:

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship’s black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King’s Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper’s dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar’s heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes.

And here is Jaime's account:

The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him. A king has no secrets from his Kingsguard. Relations between Aerys and his queen had been strained during the last years of his reign. They slept apart and did their best to avoid each other during the waking hours. But whenever Aerys gave a man to the flames, Queen Rhaella would have a visitor in the night. The day he burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. “You’re hurting me,” they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. “You’re hurting me.” In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted’s screaming. “We are sworn to protect her as well,” Jaime had finally been driven to say. “We are,” Darry allowed, “but not from him.”

Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that, the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone. The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon’s High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts. A crowned beast, Jaime knew.

Doesn't sound like a midnight flight to me... :dunno:

Add this to the other problems with Dany's childhood memories, and more and more it seems Viserys was making things up. Or misremembering. Many already suspect Dany spent her early years in Dorne, not Braavos, due to the lemon tree and the memories of playing outside barefoot, when Braavos is cold, wet and foggy. So what else is not true?

Unless of course, the cloaked and hooded woman was not actually Rhaella. Jaime doesn't mention Viserys being with her. Maybe the real Rhaella and Viserys did run away in the night, and this woman leaving the next morning was someone else?

[PrettyPig]

Its an interesting thought, especially given that this is chapter 39 of AGoT and therefore not too far removed in time from that original synopsis. There was as I recall some kind of plot to have Elia set aside [or worse] and replaced by Cersei so that a Lannister would be Rhaegar's queen. That came to fruition in the end by marrying her to Rhaegar's killer, Robert Baratheon. But what of Lyanna and those Southron ambitions? Was it common knowledge [or at least believed] that Elia was dying and consequently both Starks and Lannisters were secretly in competition to replace her - after all as I said above the fact that Rhaegar died fighting the rebels on the Trident shouldn't blind us to the point that if Rhaegar was really engaged in a conspiracy to bring in freedom, democracy and the American way of life his co-conspirators were more than likely those self same lords who rallied behind Trouserless Bob.

So yes, the "promise me" and the secrecy may well have related to the threat from the Lannisters rather than Bob.

I mentioned over in General that if you do a close reread of Ned's chapters, you'll find that Ned's moments of major trepidation dovetail with Lannister involvement or treachery. He is actually quite capable of tempering Bob or even telling him flat out where to stick it until Bob's bluster suddenly gets supplemented or overthrown by something Cersei and/or Jaime have cooked up. Ned doesn't give a damn about Bob and all his big talk, but he gets really bent out of shape when Bob's wife and the in-laws try to have their say.

Funny also you should mention freedom and democracy... I was working out a very involved and most probably crap theory about Rhaegar and his "meaning to make changes" actually trying to move Westeros to a modernized version of the Valyrian Freehold - all landowners (ie noble houses & their vassals) getting a voice in government, possibly putting up representatives for election in the vein of Volantene triarchy, etc. It sounds ridiculous but when you start to flesh it out a bit you'll see that the two people that stand to lose the most in this type setup are Varys and Tywin - and I take it a bit further (into total fanfic, most likely) by showing that from the Tourney of HH onward, Varys and Twyin were playing the crown and the major houses off of each other to cause chaos and negate any possibility of moving away from a monarchy to a fledgling democracy.

Garbage though that may be, the idea of Lannister being the prime puppet orchestrator of events and serving as the biggest threat to the Targs, the Starks, and the realm is still first and foremost in my mind.

[JNR]

Again, can anyone confirm or deny that Lyanna was definitely found in Dorne?

I don't believe it can be done to a complete certainty. The premise largely hangs on the fever dream account in which Lyanna screams "Eddard," which is what she might well have called Ned, and subsequently this changes to "Lord Eddard," which is what we would expect Poole to call Ned.

We can also reasonably extrapolate that she didn't die anywhere near Winterfell if she had to make it clear to Ned where she wanted to be buried:

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father."

My conclusion is that she probably did die in Dorne.

[Black Crow]

Garbage though that may be, the idea of Lannister being the prime puppet orchestrator of events and serving as the biggest threat to the Targs, the Starks, and the realm is still first and foremost in my mind.

Once again that comes back to the 1993 synopsis and GRRM's declaration that the story is about the Starks and the Lannisters. The Targaryens only come into the story in the form of Danaerys the Dragonlord.