Could Septa Lemore be Aegon's mother?

[Lord Varys]

No idea if this ever came up, but if you think about the whole Aegon plan, it is strange that Varys/Illyrio don't exercise any direct and personal control over 'their lad'.

Since neither Varys nor Illyrio as the father actually is with Aegon, one should expect that the original cabal would have left that particular for the mother.

Many people are obsessed about Serra, but there the only proof that she even existed consists only in a miniature of a Valyrian-looking woman Illyrio shows Tyrion. Illyrio knew that Tyrion was completely incapable of investigate the story he told him about Serra and their love, which means that he could have made her up completely to try to bond with Tyrion over the whole 'lost love' issue - he knew that Tyrion had killed Tywin and Shae, and it was obvious that this left him in an highly instable state in which he may not have been useful.

Lemore has the stretch marks indicating one or multiple births. Her hair color does not fit Aegon, but it may be that Illyrio actually has Valyrian hair which he is disguising with this yellow color (although I'm not sure why he would have to do that as a Magister of Pentos, nor do I see any reason why he should or would color his body hair).

Lemore could be Serra, if she truly existed, if there is a way how she can color her hair brown. No idea if this is working, but she would have to hide her Valyrian hair from Jon Connington, as he would clearly have second thoughts if this Lemore woman actually had Valyrian features. Conveniently, we don't have a description of her eyes, which would allow it for them to be of a shade of purple - as has already been suggested in the whole 'Lemore is Ashara' theory thing.

Thus either there was no Serra, but only a Lemore, or the story about Serra dying of the gray plague is another lie, composed to explain the disappearance of both Illyrio's wife and young son when the gang decided to hand the boy over to Jon Connington. Serra took the name of Lemore, and raised her own son as his septa.

Of course, we would then have to assume that Serra-Lemore has an entirely different, non-Lysene brothel background. This could make some sense if we go with the assumption that the Serra story as told by Illyrio was a way to bond with him, and thus used another doomed clichéd love story between a rich man (Illyrio) and a poor whore (Serra) to mimic the Tyrion-Shae/Tysha story. We don't have a real reason to believe that Illyrio would be particularly honest with Tyrion - he does not tell him about Aegon, after all.

Any thoughts on that? I don't think this overly crackpottery, but I don't remember anybody ever coming up with that possibility yet.

[Lord Varys]

No thoughts on this thing?

[roxWolfox]

If Serra is Lemore, then the biggest question I have is: whose hands are those that Illyrio keeps as a memento? :stillsick:

[Lord Varys]

We have never seen them. He just claims that he has such hands. That's not proof. The only thing we see of Serra is the miniature. And if Aegon's mother was Lemore who has naturally brown hair, it may have just been a miniature of Daenerys.

[Lord Martin]

It's surely possible, a sort of hiding in plain sight scam.

But I wonder about the wisdom of the idea to the point where I'd be inclined to discredit it. yG clearly thinks he's Aegon, Connington clearly thinks he's Aegon. So why let someone so close as the boys true mother.. Isn't she a risk to spill the beans and blow the cover? Couldn't her looks be used to question his heritage?

If he's fake, the mother would seem to be a loose end that needs tying up if she didn't die on her own...

[IceFire125]

It's surely possible, a sort of hiding in plain sight scam.

But I wonder about the wisdom of the idea to the point where I'd be inclined to discredit it. yG clearly thinks he's Aegon, Connington clearly thinks he's Aegon. So why let someone so close as the boys true mother.. Isn't she a risk to spill the beans and blow the cover? Couldn't her looks be used to question his heritage?

If he's fake, the mother would seem to be a loose end that needs tying up if she didn't die on her own...

Maybe she's in on the act as well. The Blackfyre line continues with her, and not just that, she has a real chance with her son sitting on the throne. The only sacrifice she must endure is to not act as his Mother, other than that, she has close access to him where ever he goes.

[HexMachina]

I've pondered this before, and at the time I seem to recall coming up with several reasons it was unlikely but I can't remember them now...*sigh* typical, ha! But one thing I will say is that in their (admittedly few) interactions, they do not seem to display a particularly close relationship. Lemore never acts motherly towards him, or as anything more than a long-term teacher. I guess that doesn't really need to mean anything - it could just be to strengthen the disguise. But I would have thought some maternal display might have shown itself as a clue by now, or something implying a closer relationship that simply teacher/pupil. Like Illyrio when he sounds strangely sad talking about Aegon, and his very personalised gifts etc. that seem to be too personal for him to be simply an investment to Illyrio. With Lemore, there is nothing of that kind that I Could pick out.

But again, not the strongest point against it. Let me try remember some more stuff

[Good Guy Garlan]

Well, I would feel cheated if this is true, because not mentioning the eye color is a cheap trick. That's withholding key information and so the "aha!" moment would lack a punch, in my opinion

[Lord Varys]

Well, if this is true, then Lemore/whatever her true name is would of course be fully committed to the plan, and privy to every detail. She would want Aegon to ascend the Iron Throne as much as anything, but she does not need to be a Blackfyre descendant. She could just needs to be a Westerosi woman who wants to make her son king. Illyrio himself could be the Blackfyre/Bittersteel descendant. He is the one who controls the Golden Company, after all.

Note that Haldon, Duck, and Lemore are accompanying Jon and Aegon to Westeros. Yandry and Ysilla aren't coming, but Lemore is, and she and Connington have a discussion about the strategy where she is stressing the importance of secrecy. Connington is referring to Lemore as 'Lady Lemore' in that chapter - this may either be a hint that he knows who she truly is, or simply a hint to who he believes she is. But he could actually know who she is but simply not knowing that she also happens to be Aegon's mother.

Tyrion gives us strangely no detailed description of an interaction with Aegon and Lemore (either directly in a chapter, or in memory), so we really don't know how her attitude towards him is. Considering that Lemore is clearly the best actress in the whole gang - Tyrion cannot figure her or her motives out - it would not surprise me if Varys and Illyrio had chosen such a woman as Aegon's mother and teacher as well. It is quite a big risk to hand full control of Aegon to Jon Connington without having a representative you trust completely there as well, else Jon could decide to change the whole plan suddenly.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

If this turns out to be true, I will stop reading the series...for all of five seconds.

[Ser Charles of Rosehaven]

Elia martell is aegon's mother until the Fake aegon theory is proved

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Elia martell is aegon's mother until the Fake aegon theory is proved

Good point. I lean toward Aegon being Elia's son anyway.

[DSB]

if septa lemore is young griff/aegons mother, she would obviously be aware of this fact.

lemore seems to get naked a lot around her son.

certainly not a definitive negative, to the idea of it being so - unfortunately.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

if septa lemore is young griff/aegons mother, she would obviously be aware of this fact.

lemore seems to get naked a lot around her son.

certainly not a definitive negative, to the idea of it being so - unfortunately.

Tommen was talking to Cersei when she was taking a bath. It wasn't that odd for medieval times that people see each other naked, specially those who shared one room to sleep.

[edd tollett:(]

I think lemore could be Tyene ' s mother. I don't have any direct evidence but we know she's has stretch marks, like the OP said, and varys likes exiles and a disgraced septa may fit that mold, especially if he needed one. She may also feel a connection with him through Oberyn.

[Lord Varys]

Nothing suggests that Lemore is actually a (former) septa - Connington thinks/speaks of her as Lady Lemore, not Septa Lemore. She clearly has knowledge about the Faith, but she could have learned all that from her own septa since she seems to be of noble birth.

And of course this whole theory presupposes that Aegon is not Rhaegar's son. This does not necessarily mean that I believe that he is not, but rather to discuss whether Lemore could be his mother rather than Serra (if she existed).

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I think lemore could be Tyene ' s mother. I don't have any direct evidence but we know she's has stretch marks, like the OP said, and varys likes exiles and a disgraced septa may fit that mold, especially if he needed one. She may also feel a connection with him through Oberyn.

Nope. Arianne went with Tyene to visit her mother in the Reach. Lemore was in Essos with Aegon.

[Lord Varys]

Tyene has also blond hair whereas is Lemore's is brown, and Oberyn's was dark, too.