The Little Red Riding Hood in ASOIAF

[ShadowCat Rivers]

And I got it, Brashcandy posted it and it is a discussion about Angela Carter's The Company of Wolves version of LRRH.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/76786-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-xv/page-10

As well as her The Tiger Bride.

Thank you very much, it is indeed a very interesting read.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Happy to help.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Well thats kinda what I'm interested in though, the true tales, the versions not homogenized by the brothers Grimm, who very clearly altered all the stories to suit the patriarchal agenda of the day.

In quite a lot of versions of LRRH, it is Red who outwits the wolf, who kills him, and saves Granny and herself.

As values change we change our stories to match. I studied this in Uni with the King Arthur stories, how pagan symbolism like Arthur being married to three women all called Guinevere because three had important connotations was removed and stuff was added like a hunt for the Christian grail. If you look at recent versions, there is no hunt for the grail at all and its become a secular story about the transition manhood and responsibility. Stuff like the rape of Igraine is ignored most often these days as well as Merlin's role in facilitating that.

In the case of LRRH, patriarchy still exists and the core message of the original has remained static despite attempts to reclaim it and subvert it. Its still 'dangerous' for young girls in a culture where we have idiots saying 'She is to blame for her rape, look at what she wore'. You went off the agreed (by men) norm of modesty its your fault you were attacked. Hopefully Red doesn't exist in ASOIAF, the little girl is a more wolf than man. Maybe everyone else better stay on the path she makes.

[Steve Stark]

Love the post. Nothing to add in terms of evidence to support your thoughts at the moment, although I'll think about it. But right off the bat I'd say that I don't know if George did it on purpose, if there is indeed a LRRH hidden plot within ASOIAF. It's possible, but at the same time it is also likely that because this is a medieval setting, and women were "supposed to be obedient", that this is all just coincidence.

I think the reason for this whole Arya event with the wolf was to show how rebellious and very much like Lyanna she is. What sucks is that because of her wolf's actions, Sansa's wolf is executed. So in a way the "good girl" was punished by having her dog put down, while the "rebellious" girl's wolf lives on.

But honestly, the wolf is only dead because Joffrey is a little ass and Cersei is the biggest bitch of them all (I might hate her...just a little).

Love the thought you put into this, and the references. Thanks!

[Dya of Oldstones]

As an interesting side note, I think it is really interesting to examine the various versions of trad folk tales. I recently read this article. http://www.salon.com/2015/02/21/down_and_dirty_fairy_tales_how_this_rediscovered_stash_of_darker_than_grimm_stories_destroys_our_prince_charming_myths/

Which is about a collection of folktales compiled at roughly the same time period as the brothers Grimm, but which instead of seeking to write a well selling people pleaser just recorded the tales as told to him. And the overriding theme of Patriarchy in the Grimms version is blatant. Whereas in the tales recorded as told to the other collector the gender roles are often reversed both in the villain and the hero's.

I really want a copy of this book now.

I want that book too, but wish they also had a Kindle version. I've seen PDF versions on Google but I want to make sure I get a legit copy that pays the author.

I remember reading Clarissa Pinkola Estes quite a bit when I was younger, and I suspect GRRM may have been influenced by her and others like her.

[Steve Stark]

Oh, and that whole event was probably more focused on pitting Lannisters against the Starks, as opposed to showing Arya is a lot like Lyanna. It was a way of showing the Stark family that they were in enemy territory, and when they disturbed the peace someone was likely to get killed/punished.

At the same time, now I'm curious as to whether the Riding Hood theme was intentional.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Love the post. Nothing to add in terms of evidence to support your thoughts at the moment, although I'll think about it. But right off the bat I'd say that I don't know if George did it on purpose, if there is indeed a LRRH hidden plot within ASOIAF. It's possible, but at the same time it is also likely that because this is a medieval setting, and women were "supposed to be obedient", that this is all just coincidence.

I think the reason for this whole Arya event with the wolf was to show how rebellious and very much like Lyanna she is. What sucks is that because of her wolf's actions, Sansa's wolf is executed. So in a way the "good girl" was punished by having her dog put down, while the "rebellious" girl's wolf lives on.

But honestly, the wolf is only dead because Joffrey is a little ass and Cersei is the biggest bitch of them all (I might hate her...just a little).

Love the thought you put into this, and the references. Thanks!

Arya stood up for Lady and never expected Lady to be killed. Cersei was out for blood and Robert just wanted her to stop whining.

I don't think Lady was put down thematically because Sansa was 'good' but because she wasn't good in that moment. She withheld information to stay on Joffrey's good side, making her sister look like a liar. She betrayed her pack so she was exiled from it.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Oh, and that whole event was probably more focused on pitting Lannisters against the Starks, as opposed to showing Arya is a lot like Lyanna. It was a way of showing the Stark family that they were in enemy territory, and when they disturbed the peace someone was likely to get killed/punished.

At the same time, now I'm curious as to whether the Riding Hood theme was intentional.

Ah, yes, I agree on the focus of the chapter. I included the specific excerpt because of its freudian id-superego dichotomy allusions and its parallel to the start of the LRRH story - a female authority figure urging the girl to stay on the "path".

I don't know if it's intentional either.

To answer to the relevent thought of your previous post, I don't think that the author would do a large scale plot into the plot "transplant" so to say, but I do think he uses themes and notions present in classic works. For examble, I do see as deliberate the connection of Maggy the Frog's prophecy for a "younger and more beautiful queen" to the Evil Stepmother's mirror. On the subject of the LRRH, the Mercy incident especially seems to me that it's too close a parallel to not be a deliberate reference, a sort of a retelling. ETA - in any case, the parallel is not made for the sake of it, but in service to the intended narrative.

[Rose of Ice]

In Arya’s not so much, yet. Arya is also associated with blood, but not her own: it’s the blood that she spills in her “big bad wolf” capacity that has earned her the “blood child” moniker.

I'm loving this thread. You are all coming up with excellent points.

I was intrigued by the moniker 'blood child' given to her by the GoHH - IIRC, Arya had not yet directly, discounting her 'pact' with Jaquen, killed anyone. I always thought there was more to that moniker than just a foreshadowing of Arya's assassin path.

Actually, what does that make Jaquen in relation to Arya? The Big Bad Wolf that she used for her own ends? Or was he the Hunstman? (He did kind of 'save' her.) Or was he a fellow wolf that showed her the way through the woods?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Yes, the colour fits.

What other thematic connections are there, though?

(That's a genuine question, it's possible that you see something that I don't)

Well she's supposed to be the wolf so I'm not sure. Maybe being in mortal danger in the nest of vipers she always finds herself in?

I don't think so.

He didn't save any stray girl.

Sandor however saved Arya.

Come to think of it, Sandor could be the huntsman substitute in Sansa's story as well.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I'm loving this thread. You are all coming up with excellent points.

I was intrigued by the moniker 'blood child' given to her by the GoHH - IIRC, Arya had not yet directly, discounting her 'pact' with Jaquen, killed anyone. I always thought there was more to that moniker than just a foreshadowing of Arya's assassin path.

Actually, what does that make Jaquen in relation to Arya? The Big Bad Wolf that she used for her own ends? Or was he the Hunstman? (He did kind of 'save' her.) Or was he a fellow wolf that showed her the way through the woods?

Arya had indeed killed already. She killed that boy in the stables at King's Landing and killed that one guard at Harrenhal.

[Rose of Ice]

Arya had indeed killed already. She killed that boy in the stables at King's Landing and killed that one guard at Harrenhal.

Ah - you are right!

Now, how does Jaquen fit?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Ah - you are right!

Now, how does Jaquen fit?

I don't know. If anything comes to me though, I'll be sure to post it!

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

As values change we change our stories to match. I studied this in Uni with the King Arthur stories, how pagan symbolism like Arthur being married to three women all called Guinevere because three had important connotations was removed and stuff was added like a hunt for the Christian grail. If you look at recent versions, there is no hunt for the grail at all and its become a secular story about the transition manhood and responsibility. Stuff like the rape of Igraine is ignored most often these days as well as Merlin's role in facilitating that.

In the case of LRRH, patriarchy still exists and the core message of the original has remained static despite attempts to reclaim it and subvert it. Its still 'dangerous' for young girls in a culture where we have idiots saying 'She is to blame for her rape, look at what she wore'. You went off the agreed (by men) norm of modesty its your fault you were attacked. Hopefully Red doesn't exist in ASOIAF, the little girl is a more wolf than man. Maybe everyone else better stay on the path she makes.

I absolutely agree, the re telling of folk tales to suit the morals of the day is so evident, did you read the article I posted? It was all about how the brothers Grimm, subverted the folktales to suit the agenda of the day, which was very much "women know your place" and cut from the stories all wrong doing by male characters, placing all the crimes onto the mothers and step mothers, removed all the parts where boys played any conceivably female role. switched the genders around, altered the tales which were about conflict between boys and fathers ect.

And I agree the same thing is totally evident in the Arthurian tales.

But I am not sure I can agree regarding LRRH. I mean no doubt at all that the story has its roots firmly in the message for girls to stick to the path. But as we know some versions, Old versions not just the modern re tellings, had Red saving Granny, and the Huntsman is a later introduction, some modern versions have Red & Granny teaming up to kill the wolf. With Granny teaching Red how to deal with the wolf. And then the version by Angela Carter, which I simply love. Where she (Red) embraces sex and makes her own choice, sheds her virginity like it is nothing (as opposed to the patriarchal message that it is a precious gift to be given only to the right man) and jumps in feet first taking charge of her own sexuality.

What Angela carters version does is stick two fingers up to the core message at the heart of the tale we were sold by Grimms.

"What I really love about fairy tales is that they get us talking about matters that are just so vital to us. I think about the story of Little Red Riding Hood and how originally it was about the predator-prey relationship, and then it becomes a story about innocence and seduction for us. We use that story again and again to work out these very tough issues that we have to face. My hope is that this volume will get people talking about not just the stories and the plot but the underlying issues."

I found it really interesting that in that interview she closed by discussing LRRH, as I think as a feminist, LRRH is one of the more hurtful folktales. I mean - don't get me wrong, the message we were sold in pretty much all of them was fucked up. but LRRH is as you pointed out specifically about Girls being told not to stray from the male decreed path. And we still have huge problems hanging over us from this message, which echo's throughout all of our societies attitudes towards women's sexuality.

This is why I am so interested in Carters version. It knocks the message on it's head. Using a tool of patriarchy to knock it down. And as you may have noted I have a strong interest in Sansa's story, that she is knocking Westeros's message about what it is to be a Lady on it's head in regards to sexuality. She is no longer content to follow the path and is on the verge of inviting the wolf to come on in, on her own terms.

I loved Mercy too, I found the dance of seduction Arya played around raff giddying. Her big bad wolf came out and savaged him, in the most surprising (for him) way, the hunter found himself the prey, and I cheered.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I want that book too, but wish they also had a Kindle version. I've seen PDF versions on Google but I want to make sure I get a legit copy that pays the author.

I remember reading Clarissa Pinkola Estes quite a bit when I was younger, and I suspect GRRM may have been influenced by her and others like her.

Duchess, it is available on pre order through Amazon UK as a Kindle version. Are you not able to use the UK site? I know what country you live in effects which amazon sites you can and can't use.

I just pre ordered the paperback. :D

[LongRider]

First off, well done OP SCR!

Well thats kinda what I'm interested in though, the true tales, the versions not homogenized by the brothers Grimm, who very clearly altered all the stories to suit the patriarchal agenda of the day.

In quite a lot of versions of LRRH, it is Red who outwits the wolf, who kills him, and saves Granny and herself.

Second off, the right away in the bolded sentence, I put Littefinger as the Wolf, and Sansa as LRRH and Sweet Robin as Granny. Now I'm not bold enough to say this 'is' what GRRM has in mind, but after reading the OP and the posts up to here, it just jumped out at me.

[Steve Stark]

Arya stood up for Lady and never expected Lady to be killed. Cersei was out for blood and Robert just wanted her to stop whining.

I don't think Lady was put down thematically because Sansa was 'good' but because she wasn't good in that moment. She withheld information to stay on Joffrey's good side, making her sister look like a liar. She betrayed her pack so she was exiled from it.

Well said.

Ah, yes, I agree on the focus of the chapter. I included the specific excerpt because of its freudian id-superego dichotomy allusions and its parallel to the start of the LRRH story - a female authority figure urging the girl to stay on the "path".

I don't know if it's intentional either.

To answer to the relevent thought of your previous post, I don't think that the author would do a large scale plot into the plot "transplant" so to say, but I do think he uses themes and notions present in classic works. For examble, I do see as deliberate the connection of Maggy the Frog's prophecy for a "younger and more beautiful queen" to the Evil Stepmother's mirror. On the subject of the LRRH, the Mercy incident especially seems to me that it's too close a parallel to not be a deliberate reference, a sort of a retelling. ETA - in any case, the parallel is not made for the sake of it, but in service to the intended narrative.

Your thoughts are well put together, and I can't argue with your logic. He definitely has those themes within his writings. Now you've got me looking through my two novels to see if I've done the same thing with some of my favorite stories...because I'm sure that I have. Well, honestly I'll have to ask my friends for their opinions, my beta readers. I've looked at my writings so much that I probably wouldn't even see it without it being pointed out to me.

Still loving the concept of this thread. I know some already see other tales woven in with his, and several George has even admitted to himself (War of the Roses and such, which is perhaps the most obvious). So it wouldn't be surprising that he has other hidden gems as well.

[LongRider]

Another thought from the OP and discussions. Much is made about GRRM 'subverting tropes' in his stories. Perhaps, but maybe he is also simply retelling a few fairy tales in ways that are closer to their original roots than the modern versions we're most familiar with.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

There are loads of brilliant references to multiple other stories, real history & folktales in the books. The story of Maidenpool is very evocative of the Swan maidens, and the story of rhaegar finding only the shield hanging in a tree when he went searching for TKotLT smacks of The She Wolf. It is one of the things I just Love about these stories, he uses elements of so many different forms of storytelling to pull together this astonishingly realistic fantasy world and he raises so many societal issues in the story. The Bear and the Maiden Fair has tones beauty & the beast to it but also a vague call to thought of Goldilocks whose tale has altered significantly over the years, where once it was three bachelor bears and a Vixen with the choices she makes seeming to refer to choosing a husband, the tail changed first the vixen into an old lady, then a young girl, and finally the three male bears to a family, and the message altered with those changes. Some versions have a princess discovering a cave in which three princes live who all wear furs and so again this is about choosing ones husband wisely. And of course GRRM uses the song about a Bear licking Golden honey from a maidens hair to hark us to a story where a golden haired maid chooses very unwisely. (well if you stop and think it was Jorah who chose and her dad that agreed but the impression is very much that she was happy to be chosen, at first..) , and the stories of Old Nan are beautifully crafted in order to weave the same sense of Myth and legend we have in our own world.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Another thought from the OP and discussions. Much is made about GRRM 'subverting tropes' in his stories. Perhaps, but maybe he is also simply retelling a few fairy tales in ways that are closer to their original roots than the modern versions we're most familiar with.

I think there is very possibly a good dose of this too. especially as the amount of liberties that the people writing the oral folktales down in the 1800's took is becoming more widely known.