Heresy 153

[JNR]

On the other hand, GRRM hopefully didn't just publish a book full of lies - many of which would automatically be disproven once the later books come out. This would serve no purpose except to insult fans that have stuck with him for 20+ years (some of them anyway, I can't claim to be among them).

He definitely didn't do that, because didn't write most of it. Two other people did, and those two respected the world so deeply they decided to include references in the mythology to Muppets.

The problem is, almost every "fact" we learn in the WB or in the other books is a "fact" remembered by some character.

The primary form of information in the novels is POV evidence that is seen, heard, tasted, smelled, or thought in real time. We know it's true because we're in the heads of the POV characters experiencing it.

The World book contains virtually no POV evidence of this sort.

Without primary witness POVs, we can't say with absolute certainty that Lyanna disappeared near Harrenhal, but the text has done nothing to suggest alternatives.

Two problem with this kind of thinking.

First, if we're going to limit ourselves to what's been suggested directly, we must immediately throw out the R+L=J theory on the grounds that it's never suggested, whereas (for instance) Ned and Wylla is.

Second, the World book is loaded with direct references that have no suggested alternatives. Example would be Ser Kermit and his father Ser Elmo, both mentioned in the World book. These two are never suggested not to have existed.

Should we then default to the position that Kermit and Elmo exist in GRRM's world?

[Voice]

Insightful. To be fair, GRRM does spend most of his time down south, so they may see themselves as just mirroring his priorities. And they make huge adjustments there too -- consider how utterly Brienne's storyline from AFFC has been altered.

But really, the North is very interesting and merits more time and energy, at least IMO. Especially if they want to have any hope of matching GRRM's effects at the end of the series. The devil really is in the details.

True enough, though I would say Brienne's story still isn't a part of the game. She's on a quest from Lady Stark after all....

And while GRRM does spend much time south, D&D spend much time on the Lannisters. Tyrion is of course a main character, but House Lannister's screen time is disproportionate to their page time. I attribute this to the incredible actors who play every Lannister. I think they are so overpowering that the script tends to gravitate toward them.

The show has been very accurate in telling the Lion's story. And, though Jaime is about to take a trip to Dorne, which befuddles their story, this again only puts House Lannister center stage on pages in which they are absent, save Myrcella.

Look at a map. Riverrun is 250 miles or so from Harrenhal -- a long damn distance northwest of it in a world without cars. No reason to think she was there whatsoever.

All the stuff about the Whents is irrelevant. Oswell was likely with Rhaegar, but we have no idea where Rhaegar was at that time either. The fact that Lyanna is related to them on her mother's side is irrelevant to her location at the time she disappeared, and reminds me of the argument she was at Winterfell because her father's side is, you know, a bit tied to that location.

And there's nothing to suggest she was anywhere, Harrenhal included. It's a basic reality of the canon.

Good points here. En route to Riverrun leaves a lot of room for interpretation, and just the sort of noncommittal text GRRM likes to employ to widen his wiggle room.

[JNR]

And while GRRM does spend much time south, D&D spend much time on the Lannisters. Tyrion is of course a main character, but House Lannister's screen time is disproportionate to their page time. I attribute this to the incredible actors who play every Lannister. I think they are so overpowering that the script tends to gravitate toward them.

The show has been very accurate in telling the Lion's story. And, though Jaime is about to take a trip to Dorne, which befuddles their story, this again only puts House Lannister center stage on pages in which they are absent, save Myrcella.

Hmm, you're persuading me. Boldfaced seems subjective, but my subjective opinion is just like yours.

Charles Dance in particular is just a killer... just faultless as Tywin. Better than I had imagined him. Almost a shame Tywin had to die, although I would have bitched about it here if he hadn't!

So let me ask you this. Do you think D&D are underplaying the Northern mysteries (Coldhands, Black Gate, etc.) because...

1. They don't know all the truths that GRRM knows, and that particularly interest us

2. They know the truths, but they just don't care/don't see it as interesting enough for their audience

3. They know the truths, find them interesting, but they and GRRM are taking different paths for undisclosed reasons

[Matthew.]

First, if we're going to limit ourselves to what's been suggested directly, we must immediately throw out the R+L=J theory on the grounds that it's never suggested, whereas (for instance) Ned and Wylla is.

No, but Rhaegar and Lyanna being together during a portion of Robert's Rebellion is directly suggested, as is the idea that Rhaegar had been romantically infatuated with Lyanna. What that might mean for Jon's parentage is pure speculation, but it's speculation that can be inferred from the text.

I'm not saying theories should be limited only to that which has some small textual foundation, but any alternative scenario that's rooted in skepticism of the text is essentially speculative fan fiction. Spare as the information is, someone can at least cite the text to say that Lyanna could have disappeared in the Riverlands in a time period that would roughly correspond to Brandon and Catelyn's wedding, whereas any alternatives lack even that shaky foundation.

Second, the World book is loaded with direct references that have no suggested alternatives. Example would be Ser Kermit and his father Ser Elmo, both mentioned in the World book. These two are never suggested not to have existed.

Ser Kermit has no plot relevance, whereas Robert's Rebellion helped to shape the entire present political landscape in ASOIAF; if it's revealed that Ser Kermit never existed, without any foreshadowing, nobody gives a shit. We're five books deep, and GRRM has done plenty to make the events leading up to the rebellion more complicated, to plant seeds of doubt, so that when alternative revelations are presented they're not coming out of left field. Where's the foreshadowing that places Lyanna in the company of someone other than Rhaegar during Robert's Rebellion?

[Black Crow]

He definitely didn't do that, because didn't write most of it.

On the contrary, according to Ran's account that's both unfair and inaccurate. The book was initially put together by cutting and pasting what GRRM had already written in text. Once that early draft was in his hands GRRM then set to, not only filling the gaps - and yes all three had some fun in picking the names for early characters, like Baldrick the Cunning, but that's nothing that GRRM hadn't already done with the likes of the notorious Ser Patrek of King's Mountain business.

In particular, according to Ran on this very thread, GRRM wrote all of the Harrenhal tournament stuff, and at the same time when GRRM cautioned that an unreliable narrator was at work, in that respect its no different from all the other passages by unreliable narrators in the books. Like it or not it is an extension of the books, not a work of fan-fiction.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

We learn from Catelyn that Brandon ran off on the way to his wedding when he'd learned of Lyanna's abduction, and Jaime confirms that Brandon arrived at the Red Keep and demanded that Rhaegar "come out and die." All of this is in line with Ned's statement that it's Brandon's wolf's blood that got him killed.

Not picking on you here, Matthew., but just to illustrate how insidious the power of suggestion is in this story... it turns out that this statement -- that Brandon rode to King's Landing because he learned that Lyanna had been abducted -- is not a claim made in Martin's text. What the text says is this:

"He was on his way to Riverrun when…" Strange, how telling it still made her throat grow tight, after all these years. "…when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King's Landing instead..." (2.55, CATELYN)

Does Catelyn's vaguely phrased, emotionally fraught recollection fit with young Bran's belief, 16 years later, that his Aunt Lyanna was abducted? Of course - and we naturally fill in the missing information accordingly. But does it provide independent confirmation of Bran's report? Absolutely not. If we hadn't already read Bran's little history lesson to Osha in the crypts, we'd all be looking at each other, going: "What? What was it he 'heard about Lyanna?' GRRM left something out!" Instead we think back on what we've already read; we consider what other characters, including Bran and Robert, have said about Lyanna... and then we decide that we already know what Brandon heard.

Again - I don't mean to single Matthew. out. The same statement has been made 2-3 times just in this thread, by different users (ETA: See these posts by MaesterSam and by corbon). I just find it a fascinating example of reader participation in the construction of Martin's story - collaborative storytelling, generated by powerful (and preemptive) suggestions from character POVs. Did Martin write the idea that Brandon heard Lyanna had been abducted? No he didn't - not explicitly. At least not yet. But it's absolutely become a critical part of Martin's story, for a certain segment of readers and fans. And for those readers, it may be an experiential illustration - an embodiment - of the way the Westerosi public came to know and understand the story of Lyanna Stark.

[JNR]

I'm not saying theories should be limited only to that which has some small textual foundation, but any alternative scenario that's rooted in skepticism of the text is essentially speculative fan fiction. Spare as the information is, someone can at least cite the text to say that Lyanna could have disappeared in the Riverlands in a time period that would roughly correspond to Brandon and Catelyn's wedding, whereas any alternatives lack even that shaky foundation.

Well, first, let's stop mixing up Harrenhal and the Riverlands. Harrenhal is only a tiny fraction of the Riverlands.

Yes, it's possible Lyanna could have disappeared from within ten leagues of Harrenhal. That would, however, put her nowhere near Riverrun, some 250 miles away. She might have gone that far from Riverrun to visit the Whents, maybe... but we're never told any such thing in the canon.

Why not just say she could have disappeared from Riverrun? Seems much more logical if we're going to tie her disappearance to Brandon's wedding... which is itself only possible, not certain.

As for the premise we can't come up with any other explanation, of course we can. Easily.

For instance, look at this: We don't know when Brandon's wedding was supposed to happen relative to her time of disappearance. People assume they were mere days apart, but this seems very unlikely.

Consider Brandon must have heard Lyanna was gone (somehow -- a raven? he saw it? we don't know for sure -- if a raven, some delay required for it to arrive). Then Brandon made for the Red Keep... which was hundreds and hundreds of miles away. Then he finally got there. Then Aerys summoned Rickard. Then Rickard finally got there too. Finally Brandon and Rickard died...

...and that was days before Brandon was supposed to have been married.

Brandon had been twenty when he died, strangled by order of the Mad King Aerys Targaryen only a few short days before he was to wed Catelyn Tully of Riverrun.

From this I conclude Lyanna probably disappeared weeks before Brandon was supposed to be married.

So where was she, weeks before Brandon's wedding? Could have been practically anywhere. We're never told.

It's not fanfiction to say we're never told; it's a basic, undeniable, irrefutable fact. To say "she was most likely at or near Harrenhal" is far more speculative. It derives from nothing but the World book statement, which is characterized by its author as "too well-known" a "tale" to bear repeating.

[wolfmaid7]

Don't see that one as a glitch. In the first place given the emphasis on the first walker's physical appearance, the business of looking like twins is far more likely to refer to that rather than them all being identical in every way. Secondly the walker about to do for Ser Waymar seems to have a swirly sort of cloak, making him a bit more ethereal and probably representing the artist's attempt to render an impression of the stealth armour, which would in turn suggest the cloaks worn by his brothers in the background are for the same purpose of concealment rather than keeping them cosy warm.

It's all creative licence for sure so no biggy.

Its a good point. As the dead can't come in the fact that their numbers keep increasing does suggest that they are sitting there to prevent someone coming out.

In any case the theory as originally discussed rather rested on Coldhands' behaviour - Meera you'll recall was very suspicious of the way he appeared to be leading them a circuitous route and kept emphasising both the danger and the imminence of attack and was very insistent that the cave was the only way in. Therefore when the first wight appeared there was an immediate run for the cave without thinking about it. Now it may just be me but in certain circles I used to move all of that stank of a set-up. And then oddly enough, when considering the whole Bloodraven/Kurtz Heart of Darkness parallels we find that the attack on the pilgrims as they and Marlow approached the Outer Station was actually set up by Kurtz.

This seems to be the case,and as you pointed out there seems to be the sense that CH's was ramping up the danger to secure their compliance.Getting them in the cave accomplished,keeping them in the cave by having the entrance guarded check.

That one deserves some kind of B) any plans to write it up

Absolutely not!

Yep the had to go all out on that one.

No, but Rhaegar and Lyanna being together during a portion of Robert's Rebellion is directly suggested, as is the idea that Rhaegar had been romantically infatuated with Lyanna. What that might mean for Jon's parentage is pure speculation, but it's speculation that can be inferred from the text.

I'm not saying theories should be limited only to that which has some small textual foundation, but any alternative scenario that's rooted in skepticism of the text is essentially speculative fan fiction. Spare as the information is, someone can at least cite the text to say that Lyanna could have disappeared in the Riverlands in a time period that would roughly correspond to Brandon and Catelyn's wedding, whereas any alternatives lack even that shaky foundation.

Let's play a bit of Devils advocate.Who suggested that Rhaegar and Lyanna were together? Who reported that Lyanna was taken by Rhaegar...The eye witness is who?

To go a bit further we can't place Rhaegar at the TOJ at any point.Now to the idea that Rhaegar was romantically infatuated with Rhaegar.This is something very subjective and it's conclusion was drawn based on.

1.Rhaegar crowning Lya QOLAB-Subjective

2.Lya sniffling at a song-Subjective and not an anomally.According to JonCon all the ladies cried when Rhaegar played.

3.Barristan Selmy's statement- Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna....Subjective

4.Dany's vision- Subjective

5.Viserys story to Dany-Subjective and biased

What here says that these two people were "romantically involved" with each other?What i see happening here is wrong conclusions drawn based on actions and behavior the on looker can't explain.

1.Rhaegar crowning Lya and her sniffling at his song.Ofcourse that means they were romantically involved.

2.Well Rhaegar took the Stark girl despite the repurcussions so obviously he must have loved her.Eventhough and lets get real, given how everything went down and when.When..i say when would Rheagar have talked to Barristan about his feelings for Lya.Come on now people Barristan made a guess based on what he thought Rhaegar did.

3.You all know the thing about visions .We have no context...I'll say this we have two accounts and depending on who you asked.But this shit is all romanticized even fromDany and Viserys's point of view.

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name...

ACOK p706

Yet sometimes Dany would picture it the way it had been... Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved...

AGOT p30

Also,i didn't realize from the Reed's POV Howland was TKOTLT.Interesting.

"And the mystery knight should defeat all challengers and name the wolf maid the queen of love and beauty."

"She was," said Meera. "But that's a sadder story."

ASOS p283.

Sooooo Lya was going to be named either way

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

...Now to the idea that Rhaegar was romantically infatuated with Rhaegar....

Ah, wolfmaid... your post may be even truer than you know... :laugh:

[JNR]

In particular, according to Ran on this very thread, GRRM wrote all of the Harrenhal tournament stuff, and at the same time when GRRM cautioned that an unreliable narrator was at work, in that respect its no different from all the other passages by unreliable narrators in the books. Like it or not it is an extension of the books, not a work of fan-fiction.

It's an extension of the books that contains no POV content and hence is more unreliable than the books by orders of magnitude.

[King of Winters]

One interesting thing on this point is that the World book apparently establishes that these mythical ice dragons were made of living ice and had blue eyes, and furthermore, if they were killed, they melted.

Now, that melting business is not something Westeros seems to remember about the Popsicles any more, as far as we've been told.

So if it's remembered about mythical ice dragons, it seems likely that the dragons are either

1. Very distorted memories of the Popsicles themselves

2. Real, and remembered quite accurately

Were sailors that supposedly saw the Ice Dragon from Ib? If so it may just be apart of their culture's legends and not Westerosi culture.

Its a good picture, a lot clearer than what we saw in the show itself and to my mind very much looking not as if he has a crown of horns but rather looking very like a weirwood on legs

It does bring to mind the Wierwood tree face in the episode before Ser Shards shows up.

[JNR]

Ah, wolfmaid... your post may be even truer than you know... :laugh:

:cheers: Wolfmaid FTW.

[Matthew.]

Does Catelyn's vaguely phrased, emotionally fraught recollection fit with young Bran's belief, 16 years later, that his Aunt Lyanna was abducted? Of course - and we naturally fill in the missing information accordingly. But does it provide independent confirmation of Bran's report?

Within that same conversation, Jaime also throws in the nugget about Brandon demanding that Rhaegar come out and die, which again creates a context--Brandon heard something about Lyanna, and upon arriving at King's Landing he was, for some reason, furious at Rhaegar. The conversation implicitly links the two events. With Catelyn's statement alone, maybe all we'd know is that something happened with Lyanna, but Jaime's comment throws Rhaegar into the mix, which then fits this entire conversation into a broader picture we've been given over the course of the series.

Well, first, let's stop mixing up Harrenhal and the Riverlands. Harrenhal is only a tiny fraction of the Riverlands.

Yes, it's possible Lyanna could have disappeared from within ten leagues of Harrenhal. That would, however, put her nowhere near Riverrun, some 250 miles away. She might have gone that far from Riverrun to visit the Whents, maybe... but we're never told any such thing in the canon.

Why not just say she could have disappeared from Riverrun? Seems much more logical if we're going to tie her disappearance to Brandon's wedding... which is itself only possible, not certain.

I wasn't mixing up Harrenhal and the Riverlands, I was avoiding nailing her disappearance to anywhere in the Riverlands so specific as Harrenhal. Given that Brandon was on his way to Riverrun, and the wedding wasn't that far into the future, it's not groundless speculation to suggest that her disappearance happened somewhere in the Riverlands, and was possibly related to some of the Stark household coming south in preparation for the wedding.

So where was she, weeks before Brandon's wedding? Could have been practically anywhere. We're never told.

It's not fanfiction to say we're never told; it's a basic, undeniable, irrefutable fact. To say "she was most likely at or near Harrenhal" is far more speculative. It derives from nothing but the World book statement, which is characterized by its author as "too well-known" a "tale" to bear repeating.

I'm not saying it's fan fiction to say she wasn't abducted in the Riverlands, I'm suggesting that any proposed alternatives - eg, she was actually in the Crypts all along - is fan fiction, because it's not hinted at in the text, and contradicts what little bit of information we do have. To clarify my purposes, I was arguing against people using skepticism as a means of justifying theories that are contradicted by the text. I draw a distinction between someone being critical for the sake of being critical, and being critical in order to support theories that have no basis in the text. eg- "We don't have absolute proof that Explanation A happened, so Explanation B is plausible by default"

To go a bit further we can't place Rhaegar at the TOJ at any point.Now to the idea that Rhaegar was romantically infatuated with Rhaegar.This is something very subjective and it's conclusion was drawn based on.

1.Rhaegar crowning Lya QOLAB-Subjective

2.Lya sniffling at a song-Subjective and not an anomally.According to JonCon all the ladies cried when Rhaegar played.

3.Barristan Selmy's statement- Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna....Subjective

4.Dany's vision- Subjective

5.Viserys story to Dany-Subjective and biased

What here says that these two people were "romantically involved" with each other?What i see happening here is wrong conclusions drawn based on actions and behavior the on looker can't explain.

If I gave the impression that I was speaking in absolute terms, then I apologize. What I mean is that the basic premise of Rhaegar being infatuated with Lyanna is grounded in the text, and repeated several times; it may be for the specific purpose of misleading the reader, but the possibility is there. The point of my response to JNR was that R+L is suggested by the text; not confirmed, but the two are repeatedly linked. Whether we choose to perceive Rhaegar's interest as politics, prophecy, or love, linking the two is a recurring theme straight from the books.

This is why I'm not sold on the premise that Lyanna disappearing with Rhaegar, willingly or otherwise, is rooted entirely in Robert's post war propaganda. While we've had different interpretations of the motives that may have been at work - Rhaegar is a rapist vs. Rhaegar died for the woman he loved - the linking of Lyanna and Rhaegar is a constant; "the day the smiles died," Cat and Jaime's conversation, Cersei lamenting that Rhaegar would have never fallen for the wolf girl if she'd been his wife, Barristan's thoughts on the matter, etc.

[JNR]

Were sailors that supposedly saw the Ice Dragon from Ib? If so it may just be apart of their culture's legends and not Westerosi culture.

Now we're outside my skimpy knowledge of the World book content, so I'm not sure.

However, wherever the ice dragon legends originate, I find them remarkably similar to the proven reality of the Popsicles: "living ice," blue eyes, melt when slain. A deal too similar for coincidence, for my taste.

it's not groundless speculation to suggest that her disappearance happened somewhere in the Riverlands, and was possibly related to some of the Stark household coming south in preparation for the wedding.

Sure, agreed. It's certainly possible.

I'm not saying it's fan fiction to say she wasn't abducted in the Riverlands, I'm suggesting that any proposed alternatives - eg, she was actually in the Crypts all along - is fan fiction, because it's not hinted at in the text, and contradicts what little bit of information we do have

Don't know how we can say that. She could for instance have been in the Neck, going south, not the riverlands. She could have been in the Westerlands or the Reach, on her way to the riverlands. Etc. Since we're given no logistical data about her at that time, any of these seem possible.

Brandon himself wasn't at Riverrun yet. I don't know why we'd expect him to be slower getting to his wedding site than Lyanna. If he heard about her vanishing when he was in the Neck, what does that say about Lyanna herself?

Offhand, I don't even recall that the canon says she was on her way to Brandon's wedding when she vanished.

Is anybody out there able to pony up a reference that says that? Or is it just one more common assumption? (If there's no reference it is by definition an assumption.)

All we know is that she vanished far enough back in time before Brandon's wedding to account for (1) ravens flying around about her disappearing act, (2) Brandon hearing about it and apparently crossing a continent to the Red Keep, not a short distance -- some five hundred miles perhaps, (3) more ravens flying around about what happened then, (4) RIckard crossing a continent (where was he when he heard about Brandon? we don't know...), and then even more days before the wedding was supposed to happen.

That is so much time, I couldn't even rule out Winterfell or Highgarden as possible points of disappearance for her. Not well supported, of course, but then nothing else is either unless you buy the World book's "tale."

So my conclusion is not "We have to believe Harrenhal until something better comes along." My conclusion is "We don't know where Lyanna was when she disappeared." That seems quite true unless we believe the World book, and GRRM has done entire interviews about how unreliable the World book, in which he chuckled and said "So who knows if it's true or not!" in amusement.

This is why I'm not sold on the premise that Lyanna disappearing with Rhaegar, willingly or otherwise, is rooted entirely in Robert's post war propaganda.

I'm not either. It's an objective fact that Rhaegar named Lyanna QoLaB, witnessed by half the royalty of the realm, and nothing to do with Robert. His motive is what remains hidden...

[Voice]

Hmm, you're persuading me. Boldfaced seems subjective, but my subjective opinion is just like yours.

Charles Dance in particular is just a killer... just faultless as Tywin. Better than I had imagined him. Almost a shame Tywin had to die, although I would have bitched about it here if he hadn't!

So let me ask you this. Do you think D&D are underplaying the Northern mysteries (Coldhands, Black Gate, etc.) because...

1. They don't know all the truths that GRRM knows, and that particularly interest us

2. They know the truths, but they just don't care/don't see it as interesting enough for their audience

3. They know the truths, find them interesting, but they and GRRM are taking different paths for undisclosed reasons

It's completely subjective, but the difference in Lannister screen time vs page time is not.

I don't think they are intentionally underplaying northern mysteries. But I think it's obvious they're willing to be far less careful when it comes to portraying them accurately.

Some northern mysteries have been significantly overplayed, like the Night's King slip and Jon witnessing the ww collecting Craster's son.

Others have been left completely out of the story for no apparent reason (no one can convince me Coldhands would have been an expensive addition to the screen, they could have even stuck him on a horse).

Then, there are the peculiarities. The skeletal "wights"... The firebomb grenade... The cave of meh... Moses instead of Bloodraven...

When Stannis' fleet entered the Blackwater, D&D didn't have Cersei close off the end of the bay with her dromonds while Joffrey poured crude oil onto the water and tossed a match. No.

When Ned learned of twincest, he didn't summon Varys to get the strength of his little birds behind him, and deny a thousand swords offered by Randyll Tarly.

When it's time for Tyrion to get dressed or don armour, it isn't Lancel who helps him with his gorget. The fact that Podrick Payne is even in the show at all illustrates my point.

When it comes to actual storytelling, D&D seem far more adept at the game of thrones than they are the song of ice and fire, which is quite unfortunate as both warranted justice to be done.

[Voice]

On the contrary, according to Ran's account that's both unfair and inaccurate. The book was initially put together by cutting and pasting what GRRM had already written in text. Once that early draft was in his hands GRRM then set to, not only filling the gaps - and yes all three had some fun in picking the names for early characters, like Baldrick the Cunning, but that's nothing that GRRM hadn't already done with the likes of the notorious Ser Patrek of King's Mountain business.

In particular, according to Ran on this very thread, GRRM wrote all of the Harrenhal tournament stuff, and at the same time when GRRM cautioned that an unreliable narrator was at work, in that respect its no different from all the other passages by unreliable narrators in the books. Like it or not it is an extension of the books, not a work of fan-fiction.

:agree:

"Editors" might have been a more apt title for the "Coauthors." GRRM wrote the world book, and approved the parts his undergrads helped compile - from his own writings... The WB is as canonical a source as any POV chapter or SSM, period.

[Frey family reunion]

At this point I don't think it's productive to dispute the World Book's contention that Rhaegar and his six companions came upon Lyanna ten leagues from Harrenhal. It's such a specific piece of information that I doubt Martin just intentionally inserts this to deceive us. I do find that this presents some interesting issues with the idea that Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped.

It doesn't really seem to jive that Rhaegar and Lyanna planned to have a secret elopement and then Rhaegar shows up with six of his buddies. While I suppose the two are not necessarily exclusive, the fact that Rhaegar shows up in force leans towards an abduction as opposed to two lovers running off together.

And the fact that Lyanna is so close to Harrenhall is interesting as well. She is fairly far from Riverrun, but she is awfully close to the shores of the God's Eye. Which is why I'm leaning towards the idea that her initial disappearance was unrelated to Rhaegar and puts her instead near the God's eye. Which in turn is why I think it is at least possible that the person she ran off with was Howland. If she reunited with Howland as she and her party traveled down the Neck and they ran off to the Isle of Faces without her family's knowledge, this could lead to Brandon jumping to a different conclusion (the same conclusion most readers come to btw) that Rhaegar abducted her, initially.

[Voice]

At this point I don't think it's productive to dispute the World Book's contention that Rhaegar and his six companions came upon Lyanna ten leagues from Harrenhal. It's such a specific piece of information that I doubt Martin just intentionally inserts this to deceive us.

I know I just defended the authenticity of the WB as canon, but that doesn't mean the author is truthful LOL...

If you don't think GRRM would deliberately deceive us with a specific piece of information, then I see you, and raise you Wylla.

When it comes to the World Book, it must be trusted with as much veracity as Grand Maester Pycell speaking to Ned Stark. In the World Book, we have a Citadel approved story, written for the delight of Robert Baratheon.

[Black Crow]

It's an extension of the books that contains no POV content and hence is more unreliable than the books by orders of magnitude.

But then a POV is just a point of view and not always objective. An interesting case in point is that episode with Jon and Sam discussing the Others, which appears to be significant because its played, twice first from one point of view and then from the other and while some but not all of the dialogue is used in both, overall each have a very different sense of emphasis. What's more a very substantial part of the book text is not in the form of true POVs but rather in the form of the headline character being told information, which is fundamentally no different from being told those things in the World Book. GRRM made that plain in his health warning. Just as in the books we, the readers, are being told important information but we need to make our own judgement as to its reliability, or rather we need to take into account the POV of the person telling the story.

[Bryaugh]

When it comes to actual storytelling, D&D seem far more adept at the game of thrones than they are the song of ice and fire, which is quite unfortunate as both warranted justice to be done.

Amen.