Jon & Arya - hints and overall significance of their relationship (including part 3)

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

But why does it have to be foreshadowing? It's just another part of his "everything was meant for Brandon" shtick. A daughter of a second son is unlikely to become queen (unless she happens to be very pro-active like Alicent Hightower, lol) and he wouldn't have to espouse her to Joff, whom he obviously doesn't like. It's tied to the situation at hand.

Don't get me wrong, I understand why you would think it could be foreshadowing, but I'm just not convinced.

I prefer Mya. She's the oldest, too. :P

Well it has to be foreshadowing because it backs up his dialogue to another character in a completely separate scene. Dialogue which in and of itself makes not sense at all and Arya knows it makes no sense because she says 'No, that's Sansa'. GRRM could have very simply changed the dialogue to 'Father of a queen' or 'Marry a high Lord' but he chose the terms he did knowing there is no sense in it. We are left wondering how in universe Arya was meant to be a Queen. How was Ned meant to know that? That weirwood bed?

Jon's turning 18, Arya's turning 12, there is no Paedophilia. Jon is not 28. Its one of the more realistic age gaps in the book.

How do people interpret the 3 bastards in Arya's plot by the way? Gendry, Jon and Ramsey (they've never met but through his Fake Arya plot) What is it with Arya and bastards? What is GRRM getting at? They are compared and contrasted I believe.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

How do people interpret the 3 bastards in Arya's plot by the way? Gendry, Jon and Ramsey (they've never met but through his Fake Arya plot) What is it with Arya and bastards? What is GRRM getting at? They are compared and contrasted I believe.

Bastards' royal blood detector :)

[lojzelote]

Well it has to be foreshadowing because it backs up his dialogue to another character in a completely separate scene. Dialogue which in and of itself makes not sense at all and Arya knows it makes no sense because she says 'No, that's Sansa'. GRRM could have very simply changed the dialogue to 'Father of a queen' or 'Marry a high Lord' but he chose the terms he did knowing there is no sense in it. We are left wondering how in universe Arya was meant to be a Queen. How was Ned meant to know that? That weirwood bed?

Jon's turning 18, Arya's turning 12, there is no Paedophilia. Jon is not 28. Its one of the more realistic age gaps in the book.

How do people interpret the 3 bastards in Arya's plot by the way? Gendry, Jon and Ramsey (they've never met but through his Fake Arya plot) What is it with Arya and bastards? What is GRRM getting at? They are compared and contrasted I believe.

The show changed it to exactly that IIRC. Perhaps Book Ned just likes to use flowery speech. Anyway, I'm willing to give you that one rather than the father to queens. He was talking about Arya in only one of those scenes.

Eh... Of course that fucking a 12 year old is paedophilia. Imagine what a twelve-year-old looks like. That would be Natalie Portman in Leon. Now imagine her passionately kissing an eighteen-year-old and him touching her breasts (or more like her mostly flat chest) under her shirt and getting it on. Creepy.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Its uncomfortable but its not paedophilia. 16 is when it in general becomes less concerning. This is a series where the hero may be the son of a man and girl who fell for each other when he was 23 and she was 13, that is vile. Drogo and the 13 year old Dany too.

Ned has been offered the position of hand and along with that Sansa will be Queen one day. Hes talking to Cat about it and says Brandon should be there. It should be Brandons job. Brandon should be hand, Brandon should be father to Queens not him. Cat says he should accept that this is his fate.The Queens Ned is father too is clearly the betrothed Sansa, but his other daughter has no king to marry. So he is talking about Sansa and Arya, the same way he is talking about becoming hand.

What is funny about the show is that they changed the King line because it makes no sense but kept that her sons would be princes. I guess in the show Ned is thinking about Trystane?

[lojzelote]

Its uncomfortable but its not paedophilia. 16 is when it in general becomes less concerning. This is a series where the hero may be the son of a man and girl who fell for each other when he was 23 and she was 13, that is vile. Drogo and the 13 year old Dany too.

Ned has been offered the position of hand and along with that Sansa will be Queen one day. Hes talking to Cat about it and says Brandon should be there. It should be Brandons job. Brandon should be hand, Brandon should be father to Queens not him. Cat says he should accept that this is his fate.The Queens Ned is father too is clearly the betrothed Sansa, but his other daughter has no king to marry. So he is talking about Sansa and Arya, the same way he is talking about becoming hand.

What is funny about the show is that they changed the King line because it makes no sense but kept that her sons would be princes. I guess in the show Ned is thinking about Trystane?

IT FUCKING IS. The veneer of civilisation is thin, they say it right. Sigh.

P.S.: Well, which king do you think Sansa will marry to make Ned's plural come true? She never became Joff's queen, you know.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

IT FUCKING IS. The veneer of civilisation is thin, they say it right. Sigh.

1. I am not engaging in your Leon comparison. I am not imagining that. That is gross. I glossed over it because of that.

2. Its factually accurate, its not pedophilia as its generally considered that is under 11.

3. 5 years is nothing in this world even at the age of 13 as shown, modern standards, not applicable in this fiction. 13 year olds should be dreaming about boy band members but they are not in ASOIAF.

How do we get into these conversations?

[lojzelote]

1. I am not engaging in your Leon comparison. I am not imagining that. That is gross. I glossed over it because of that.

2. Its factually accurate, its not pedophilia as its generally considered that is under 11.

3. 5 years is nothing in this world even at the age of 13 as shown, modern standards, not applicable in this fiction. 13 year olds should be dreaming about boy bamd members but they are not in ASOIAF.

How do we get into these conversations?

1,&3, So you're refusing to even imagine that because it's too disgusting to even imagine? You should think about what you're arguing for truly means, just sayin'. BTW, even in ASoIaF fucking 12-13-year-olds is not considered to be fully normal. 5 years during this period of their lives is a huge gap.

2, Call it hebephilia then if it makes you feel better. Look at Portman, she had closer to being a little girl than a young woman.

We got into this because you said that 12 on 18 is not paedophilia, just a bit uncomfortable.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

1,&3, So you're refusing to even imagine that because it's too disgusting to even imagine? You should think about what you're arguing for truly means, just sayin'. BTW, even in ASoIaF fucking 12-13-year-olds is not considered to be fully normal. 5 years during this period of their lives is a huge gap.

2, Call it hebephilia then if it makes you feel better. Look at Portman, she had closer to being a little girl than a young woman.

We got into this because you said that 12 on 18 is not paedophilia, just a bit uncomfortable.

I didnt say 'just a bit uncomfortable'. I said uncomfortable full stop.

They are still children, its not good but its not the right term to use and I was not the one to bring it up. No one is arguing for 12-13 year old sex, not one person in this thread. Go back, there was a lengthy conversation on how much time was left to pass in the narrative and how old she will be at the end. Your comparison was extreme. Moral relativism isnt the best argument but it is important to place it in context.

Hebephilia is the right term, yes. There is the uncomfortableness, the age between pubescence and maturity which differs for different people. Maybe that is understated, I am British, its how we speak.

[Han Snow]

^^So was Drogo a paedo (for me personally, he was a rapist at least)? Tyrion got an erection when looking at Sansa naked when she was, how old? If GRRM goes there with a 13 y.o Arya (at least 13, She won't be 12) and 18 y.o. Jon, should we call the FBI on George??

I don't know, if their love has to culminate into a romance kind of type, I imagine Jon as a changed, dark, twisted figure fighting on the wrong side in the end and Arya on the mission as a FWM to give the Gift to the big Bad not knowing that it is Jon. So she mortally wounds him somehow before realizing who he is and she herself is badly wounded fighting her way to get to him or something. Anyways, they both realize who they are a little bit too late, and they die giving each other comfort. Maybe realizing in the very end that if the cirumstances have been different they would have been together (R+L=J is known to most by then).

Or am I projecting Romeo and Juliet here?! Probably. How old were they?

[lojzelote]

^^So was Drogo a paedo (for me personally, he was a rapist at least)? Tyrion got an erection when looking at Sansa naked when she was, how old? If GRRM goes there with a 13 y.o Arya (at least 13, She won't be 12) and 18 y.o. Jon, should we call the FBI on George??

I don't know, if their love has to culminate into a romance kind of type, I imagine Jon as a changed, dark, twisted figure fighting on the wrong side in the end and Arya on the mission as a FWM to give the Gift to the big Bad not knowing that it is Jon. So she mortally wounds him somehow before realizing who he is and she herself is badly wounded fighting her way to get to him or something. Anyways, they both realize who they are a little bit too late, and they die giving each other comfort. Maybe realizing in the very end that if the cirumstances have been different they would have been together (R+L=J is known to most by then).

Or am I projecting Romeo and Juliet here. Probably. How old were they?

Viserys noted that Drogo was a disgusting savage and Tyrion clearly disliked the thought that he should bed a girl that young. So there's that.

I don't take your fantasies from you, but what I'm imagining is Portman in the arms of my 18-year-old neighbor, and that's far less pleasant for me. I never actually read Romeo and Juliet, but I think that Juliet was indeed 13... and fucking stupid to kill herself over a man, if you ask me. Really, kids that young shouldn't get into serious relationships, lol.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Drogo and Tyrion are both rapists if I recall. Neither were paedophiles when it came to Dany and Sansa. Not that, that makes it better.

I kind of find it funny Im being painted as some sort of paedo sympthiser when Ive continually called Jon 'a deviant'. Boy has issues he needs addressing.

Portman wan meant to be Baz Luhrmans Juliet in 1996, she pulled out when she was told nudity was involved.

[lojzelote]

I didnt say 'just a bit uncomfortable'. I said uncomfortable full stop.

They are still children, its not good but its not the right term to use and I was not the one to bring it up. No one is arguing for 12-13 year old sex, not one person in this thread. Go back, there was a lengthy conversation on how much time was left to pass in the narrative and how old she will be at the end. Your comparison was extreme. Moral relativism isnt the best argument but it is important to place it in context.

Hebephilia is the right term, yes. There is the uncomfortableness, the age between pubescence and maturity which differs for different people. Maybe that is understated, I am British, its how we speak.

I thought you're arguing for them falling in love... which to me equals thinking about sex... which soon leads to actual sex... from my experience. :dunno:

We call everything under the age of consent (15) paedophilia where I come from. Perhaps psychiatrists and other people involved call it something different, but in common speech nobody distinguishes paedophilia from hebephilia. I had to look it up.

[lojzelote]

I kind of find it funny Im being painted as some sort of paedo sympthiser when Ive continually called Jon 'a deviant'. Boy has issues he needs addressing.

Well, I don't think the author was going for that, lol. Wasn't Ygritte like 19? He's the only man in these books I can think of atm who had sex with a woman older than himself.

[ICRYRAGE]

There is a history in the series of people marrying their cousins. Many of the families do this. So if R+L=J then it would not be out of the realm of possibilities for Arya to marry Jon and I think many of you are correct that this might have been the original plan from GRRM when the story was much more simple and there were a lot less characters. Now however there are a lot of characters and lots of possibilities for political marriages so if both Jon and Arya are still alive at the end of the story I'd assume to politically they would not marry each other. But who knows maybe Jon will go to his Targ roots and marry two women.

[Ice Turtle]

There is a history in the series of people marrying their cousins. Many of the families do this. So if R+L=J then it would not be out of the realm of possibilities for Arya to marry Jon and I think many of you are correct that this might have been the original plan from GRRM when the story was much more simple and there were a lot less characters. Now however there are a lot of characters and lots of possibilities for political marriages so if both Jon and Arya are still alive at the end of the story I'd assume to politically they would not marry each other. But who knows maybe Jon will go to his Targ roots and marry two women.

As for political marriages most daughters of great houses is already married and with o lot of them it does not look they will survive long.

Arianne - I think will get involved with Aegon and dies in the next dance of dragons

Asha - is rather old by Westerosi standards (26) has husband, lover and lost support of her family.

Margaery - is married and her reputation is going very bad due her multiple widowhood, personally I do not believe she will live long. If not her trial I expect Robert Strong to be her undoing.

Myrcella - is a Lannister, rumored to be a bastard, prophesied to die and still betrothed

Shireen - is geographically closest to Jon, though willdlings have a big trouble with her and her father lost all his holdlings

Arya - is also married in a fashion but Jon is doing all he can to make her a widow

Sansa - also more or less married at the moment

Daenerys - married and the moment, with another suitor and the way, though I don't expect any of these men to outlive her return to Westeros

There are other choices that would logically make sense like Manderly, Blackwood, Royce and Tarly girls, but I don't think GRRM will go there. He barely devoted any time to those characters.

[Greymoon]

Yes, I read that outline. That outline also states that Dany will kill Drogo in vengeance for Viserys. The canon characters feel differently from their outline selves.

Look, Jon's not in love with Arya. He loves her deeply, but he's not in love with her. This may help.

Of course he's not in love with her. Not yet.

I think this is the whole point of the thread. Jon and Arya have strong affection for each other, right now, they still see themselves as they did in the past. But their personalities have changed drastically since the last time they saw each other. Jon is no longer the boy Arya knew, and his 'death' will probably mark a definite change. Kill the boy, Jon the Man will have no more sweetness to spare, no more 'forgiveness' for those that wronged him and his family. I think this is very obvious in DwD. Some argue Jon will be more than ever loyal to his vows, I think the opposite will happen.

He was lied to (the pink letter), he was betrayed (Bowen), people (Stannis, Mel) have tried to use him, and the wall has not been 'neutral ground' for a long time, even before Jon meddled. Tywin Lannister and Bowen wrote each other. Janos had Lannister support for the LC election etc.... his family was killed, to his knowledge, all of them were, and Winterfell is in the hands of Bolton.

This calls for revenge, and it calls for a break-away from his former 'neutral-stand'. He tried to stay out of it, to me, it's clear, he can't do that anymore, if he ever could...and the assassination attempt is the one thing to truly push him over the edge, something that will let a ruthless, pragmatic, and dark version of Jon appear.

This is the version of Jon, the 'man', that would eventually find his 'salvation' in his love for Arya. As another poster said, it's us against the world. There's multiple hints pointing toward Jon becoming a sort of ruthless killing machine (see the Lightbringer thread by Schmendrick)....All heroes were murderers, all conquerors monsters....(Jon's dreams, Mel seeing him surrounded by skulls, a recurring vision.... his eyes are just as dark as Arya's, too. Arya who is called a dark soul.)

Similarly, Nymeria and Needle (representing Winterfell, and Jon) are Arya's salvation. She cannot be 'no-one' as long as she has these two, the wolf and the sword, to bind her to her former self. She remains Arya, but she is a darker Arya, a lost, a hurting, and ruthless version of her former self. Jon, the thought of Jon has been her safe-haven for the whole of her journey out of Kingslanding, and imo, will continue to be so.

As Arya and Jon change, their love for each other -- once they reconnect -- will be forced to change as well. Especially, as they have been parted for such a long time, neither having witnessed the transformation of the other, neither knowing the other anymore....

For me the question is not 'will they fall in love with each other' but rather, will these darker versions of the characters we know and love ever be able to connect on an emotional level to anyone who isn't them?

[lojzelote]

Yeah, I've already been told that he's not in love with her, but he is possessive of her or attracted to her... the problem is I'm not seeing any of that and it isn't any more normal where a 9 year old is concerned.

Well, at least you accept it would be fucked up.

[Shireen Shireen]

Of course he's not in love with her. Not yet.

I think this is the whole point of the thread. Jon and Arya have strong affection for each other, right now, they still see themselves as they did in the past. But their personalities have changed drastically since the last time they saw each other. Jon is no longer the boy Arya knew, and his 'death' will probably mark a definite change. Kill the boy, Jon the Man will have no more sweetness to spare, no more 'forgiveness' for those that wronged him and his family. I think this is very obvious in DwD. Some argue Jon will be more than ever loyal to his vows, I think the opposite will happen.

Regardless of whether the remaining predictions re Arya comes to pass, I think this part is on solid ground.

[Ghosts Lunch]

Well it has to be foreshadowing because it backs up his dialogue to another character in a completely separate scene. Dialogue which in and of itself makes not sense at all and Arya knows it makes no sense because she says 'No, that's Sansa'. GRRM could have very simply changed the dialogue to 'Father of a queen' or 'Marry a high Lord' but he chose the terms he did knowing there is no sense in it. We are left wondering how in universe Arya was meant to be a Queen. How was Ned meant to know that? That weirwood bed?

Jon's turning 18, Arya's turning 12, there is no Paedophilia. Jon is not 28. Its one of the more realistic age gaps in the book.

How do people interpret the 3 bastards in Arya's plot by the way? Gendry, Jon and Ramsey (they've never met but through his Fake Arya plot) What is it with Arya and bastards? What is GRRM getting at? They are compared and contrasted I believe.

Has to do with Arya being a bastardised form of "Lady" in that universe, eg she is a Tomboy and into sword fighting and doesen't care about being pretty etc

Eg the Bastards have no right to land and title, whereas she is a case of "that's not me" despite the fact she is expected to marry and manage a Holdfast etc etc

[Ghosts Lunch]

As for Jon and Arya shipping, probably needs to be remembered there was intended to be a five year gap, I think the mercy chapter was supposed to be written when Arya was 17, hence all the sexual references etc. Obviously a 22 yo Jon Snow and 18 yo Arya by the end of it all isn't all that problematic age wise. There's an awkward issue of incest but that seems to be part of that universe in terms ot Targs and in terms of them being cousins if R=L=J is true I guess it's like Tywin and Joanna Lannister

Not sure if it would happen, or it would be awkward to introduce

Gendry isn't much of a subsititute as he's about the same age as Jon. Though ironically Robert would get his wish about Baratheon son and Stark daughter and joining of houses

Have to figure Arya out, obviously there's something about choosing the name Nymeria and her Direwolf being a Queen of a pack of wolves in the RL, though I reckon Sansa relates more to RL

Gets weird in the show because the actors will all be about 18 and over by the time it ends, eg despite being 13/14 when it started in the pilot it's hard to take the "14" seriously in that Sansa/Tyrion scene