Jon & Arya - hints and overall significance of their relationship (including part 3)

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Too bad for Stargaryens, then. I have a gut feeling that Dany will bear a living child, even if it is the last thing she does. But perhaps they will get to be caretakers and teach the child proper Targaryen family values. ;)

Problem with all this is time. People saying that Arya/Jon would be forced, at least they have met. At least GRRM has set up some sort of relationship. Dany won't meet Jon until A Dream of Spring and maybe not even at the start of that book. Where is the 9 month pregnancy coming from in a zombie apocalypse? I'm also wary of GRRM solving all the characters problems, Jon no longer a bastard, Dany no longer barren as she thinks. It's too neat. It's just a step away from 'Ned's not dead' in the too happy to be real stakes.

[lojzelote]

Problem with all this is time. People saying that Arya/Jon would be forced, at least they have met. At least GRRM has set up some sort of relationship. Dany won't meet Jon until A Dream of Spring and maybe not even at the start of that book. Where is the 9 month pregnancy coming from in a zombie apocalypse? I'm also wary of GRRM solving all the characters problems, Jon no longer a bastard, Dany no longer barren as she thinks. It's too neat. It's just a step away from 'Ned's not dead' in the too happy to be real stakes.

I don't necessarily think the father would be Jon, at least not biological. GRRM likes to play with paralels and Jon raising a child which is not his own (but still related) would be a nice fit. *shrugs* The zombie apocalypse is problematic, sure, but Dany is a tough girl, who spent her entire first pregnancy riding a horse, an occasional ride on a dragon wouldn't be that much worse, IMHO, and it's not like we can say for sure how long the war will take and what methods of fighting will be most effective, etc, so I withhold judgement on what will be (im)possible.

I'm not truly comfortable speculating so far into future, though. It could all go a thousand different ways, but I've had a strong inkling that Dany and child will happen in the end since the first time I read Mirri's suspiciously complicated "not gonna happen" speech.

If Arya can age from 11/12 to 14 and (plus time to, eh, transform her relationship with Jon, which people here expect) during last two books, there's no reason why Dany can't have a 8-9 months long pregnancy.

(Interesting that your favorite character becoming a beautiful, empowered queen to a man she loves and who loves her back is not "too happy" for you. ;))

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I think I'm getting way off topic with this, but anyway... (I promise I will leave it at this)

Why would they follow a figurehead? Precisely, because they are more likely to believe that the figurehead would feed and protect them and hey, it can work that way because with garnering enough support they can organize their followers and actually be able to provide those things.To paraphrase Varys the illusion of power can have very real results.

Yes. I believe, however, that people's ideas regarding "where power resides", to continue with Varys' riddle theme, will be revolutionized both for the better and for the worse. In fact, the rise of the sparrows is an examble.

After all,

“Death and guest right,” muttered Long Jeyne Heddle. “They don’t mean so much as they used to, neither one.”

[Mithras]

I don't necessarily think the father would be Jon, at least not biological. GRRM likes to play with paralels and Jon raising a child which is not his own (but still related) would be a nice fit.

That will happen with Rickon. Jon will pay his debt to Ned by raising Rickon as his own.

[lojzelote]

That will happen with Rickon. Jon will pay his debt to Ned by raising Rickon as his own.

Perhaps he could take them both. :) But Rickon would fit worse because he's not a child of a female relative and he's not a little baby without any other family, who many people would love to get rid off; i.e. in position baby Jon had himself been. Ned also didn't owe Lyanna anything, but he did it anyway although he endangered himself and his own family.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I don't necessarily think the father would be Jon, at least not biological. GRRM likes to play with paralels and Jon raising a child which is not his own (but still related) would be a nice fit. *shrugs* The zombie apocalypse is problematic, sure, but Dany is a tough girl, who spent her entire first pregnancy riding a horse, an occasional ride on a dragon wouldn't be that much worse, IMHO, and it's not like we can say for sure how long the war will take and what methods of fighting will be most effective, etc, so I withhold judgement on what will be (im)possible.

I'm not truly comfortable speculating so far into future, though. It could all go a thousand different ways, but I've had a strong inkling that Dany and child will happen in the end since the first time I read Mirri's suspiciously complicated "not gonna happen" speech.

If Arya can age from 11/12 to 14 and (plus time to, eh, transform her relationship with Jon, which people here expect) during last two books, there's no reason why Dany can't have a 8-9 months long pregnancy.

(Interesting that your favorite character becoming a beautiful, empowered queen to a man she loves and who loves her back is not "too happy" for you. ;))

Honestly I'm just following the Arya breadcrumbs. I'm not one of those fans stuck on a certain path for a character even if goes against what I want. I'm not the type to bury my head in the sand about these things which is why its so frustrating when I see fans go 'This plot is dropped' without any backup. It might be but this thread has shown in great detail the evidence against that. That is what I'm supportive of, its good work and we should be discussing it. And even things we consider happy, aren't necessarily sunshine and roses for the characters involved. Cersei is a beautiful, empowered Queen after all. That said, I do think the Starks will end happily, but they will have lost their father, mother, brother, childhoods and innocence in the process. The Starks are getting nothing without paying for it in blood it seems.

I agree that there will be some time prior to her meeting Jon but it would require Daario and Hizdahr to have sex with her in Winds (book time) and that isn't looking at all likely. She was quite settled in Mereen for a while, things are going to get hectic again. Its not a matter of her riding a dragon, its a matter of Winter. Its going to be harsh, Winterfell/The North (where she will need to be) will be starving, the greenhouses were destroyed. It would not be a good time to have another mouth to feed and Dany may have to go hungry too. I would expect her to do more than ride a dragon though. Her purpose surely can't just be to drive the dragon about setting fire to things. That's too little but then she isn't a warrior so she can't exactly be fighting others head on. In fact I find it massively unlikely fire kills others otherwise, again its too easy and removes the need for Jon and anyone else to be fighting them.

The problem with taking Mirri as a prophecy is that she is not really in a position to be offering Dany any hope at all. She doesn't want Dany breeding, if she suspected she could she may have gone to further lengths to stop it. I don't think the suspected miscarriage means much either as the child did not survive to be birthed living. But then, as we've seen with 'You will marry a King' GRRM's foreshadowing doesn't need logic to apply. The other reason I'd actually quite like Dany to be barren is that I know two women who are unable to carry children and we have far too much emphasis on womanhood being connected to maternity. They are not lesser women because they can't give birth. But that is personal to me and is just a preference.

[lojzelote]

Well, all major POV characters have had a hard life, it's more a question of with whom the reader empathizes more and with whom less.

I'm not going to expand my ideas much since at this stage it's very theoretical and I wouldn't want to get to carried away, but for your objections, I don't think any of them are a serious problem. I fully expect Dany to take other lovers in future, she's no blushing maiden and she enjoys sex. She is also a queen/leader with a large power base. Even if she had trouble to feed her followers, she should still be able to afford one more mouth to feed, especially if it is her own flesh and blood and I think that if she found out she's pregnant she would keep the baby despite complications because of the heir issue, if nothing else.

No, I don't think Mirri was offering her any hope, quite the opposite, she wanted to hurt her even more, so not only she told her that she will *never* get Drogo back, but also lied to her that she has no chance to have another baby... which worked, Dany believed her. Since you mention the theory of Dany's second pregnancy, I subscribe to it and I think that there will be a third one because Dany is a child of three.

Anyway, I'm not particularly happy with this theory myself since I expect it will likely mean Dany's death and she won't live to enjoy next spring, but I think it's a very real possibility.

[Queen.Sansa.Lannister]

They are all still alive, so it is still possible. Though can't say I would bet on it. I am a long time Jon/Arya shipper, Tyrion/Arya surprised me much more than Jon/Arya in the first draft . Though I remember thinking that it is strange that there seems to be no foreshadowing for Tyrion and Sansa marriage in neither of their arcs, Almost as if it was not the plan in the first two books. Someday someone should look at it more deeply, but for now the only suspicious thing is that Tyrion and Arya are GRRM's favorite male and female character and they did not interact so far though Tyrion met all the other Stark kinds. Even Rickon.

As for being it at the beginning there is some other stuff in other books I will add later, but the OP is long as it is.

Hate to disappoint you here, but there is actually loads of foreshadowing for Sansa/Tyrion. If you can't tell by my username, I've spent a very long time finding all the foreshadowing. The second book is chock-full of it, and there are little clues in the first book as well. There are less after their marriage, but they're still there.

Sorry for the thread derailment.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I have no doubt that Lords and Ladies can feed themselves during Winter but the smallfolk go starving. Men go 'hunting' so their families survive. Good leaders endure the hardships of the people to an extent or they look like what they are, 'privileged'. That looks to be the reason the Stark family is so slim, why so many Stark boys go to the wall.

[Ice Turtle]

Hate to disappoint you here, but there is actually loads of foreshadowing for Sansa/Tyrion. If you can't tell by my username, I've spent a very long time finding all the foreshadowing. The second book is chock-full of it, and there are little clues in the first book as well. There are less after their marriage, but they're still there.

Sorry for the thread derailment.

I would not be disappointed If you were right, but I am not convinced yet. Is there a post or thread about it?

[Queen.Sansa.Lannister]

I would not be disappointed If you were right, but I am not convinced yet. Is there a post or thread about it?

I am going to make one when I return home later this evening. Look out for it.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

In my re-read I've noticed that in A Clash of Kings, Arya II

"I bet he's that traitor's bastard," Lommy said one night,in a hushed voice so Gendry would not hear. "The wolf lord, the one they nicked on Baelor's steps."

"He is not," Arya declared. My father only had one bastard, and that's Jon.

Lommy thinks Gendry is Jon. Interesting that GRRM is setting up our comparisons from the get go like he did with Ygritte

[StarkWolf]

I've always thought of Jon and Arya as endgame. It seemed glaringly obvious to me in book one, almost like their story parallels Rhaegar and Lyanna though perhaps they may get a longer life together.

Of course, it's been a while since GRRM first penned that book, and it's possible he may have changed his mind. I also see Gendry as the reincarnation of Robert. He will make a formidable warrior and I hope a good friend to Arya.

It's great to see a sensible discussion without name calling for this topic.

[Han Snow]

I've always thought of Jon and Arya as endgame. It seemed glaringly obvious to me in book one, almost like their story parallels Rhaegar and Lyanna though perhaps they may get a longer life together.

Of course, it's been a while since GRRM first penned that book, and it's possible he may have changed his mind. I also see Gendry as the reincarnation of Robert. He will make a formidable warrior and I hope a good friend to Arya.

It's great to see a sensible discussion without name calling for this topic.

Hmmh, I'm guessing you haven't read the entire thread because...names were called out...sadly.

[StarkWolf]

Hmmh, I'm guessing you haven't read the entire thread because...names were called out...sadly.

No, not yet. That is a shame.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Hmmh, I'm guessing you haven't read the entire thread because...names were called out...sadly.

But not much, really. It has been one of the most polite and constructive threads on the subject.

[Meera.]

Great post, Ice Turtle! Your posts are always interesting to read.

After reading this post, I wonder if Arya will play a part in reviving him as Jon Snow, after his supposed 'death'. I do think he will become a different person in certain aspects.

[sweetsunray]

In my re-read I've noticed that in A Clash of Kings, Arya II

Lommy thinks Gendry is Jon. Interesting that GRRM is setting up our comparisons from the get go like he did with Ygritte

There's another one in aSoS I think, where she observes something that Gendry for her and she makes the link to Jon, like Jon does with Arya-Ygritte.

ETA: got it...Aria I

During their escape from HH on the horses, before the BwB, Hot Pie proposes to build a fire..

"NO!" Arya and Gendy both said, at the exact same instant. Hot Pie quailed a lille. Arya gave Gendry a sideways look. He said it with me, like Jon used to do, back in Winterfell. She missed Jon Snow the most of her brothers.

[Bastetcat]

Characters are seeing Arya in people who are not her while Arya is pretending to be other people and trying to lose her TRUE identity as Arya Stark. Great writing by George.

And of course, the only thing stopping her from commiting to the task of losing her identity fully and completely is... Jon Snow.

p.s. Nice job on part 2. Waiting patently for the last one.

I wonder what will happen (if) when Arya hears of Jon's death. Will he lose herself or will he leave Bravos and the Faceless Man's temple to make revenge. I fear that loosing Jon will make an end of Arya's personality.

[Meera.]

I just had this thought about the whole Tyrion/Jon rivalry because of Arya, it has basically been replaced with Jon/Ramsay. Ramsay married fArya, Jon's adwd arc revolved around saving Arya, basically GRRM just replaced Tyrion with Ramsay. In the outline it's also written that Tyrion will travel overseas and fall in love with Arya, I guess he had always planned Arya to be MIA from Westeros. He hasn't changed all that much from the outline from what I see.