Jon & Arya - hints and overall significance of their relationship (including part 3)

[Lady Blackmont]

Whatevs, wincest is magic.

[Ghost's Shadow]

How can anyone know what a character's age is going to be by the time the books end? Have they read the ending yet to come to this conclusion?

[Ice Turtle]

George gave us our fill of Incest with Jamie and Cersei, that was not in the original narrative, so any evidence there may be immediately dismissed.

Are you really claiming that no evidence is more important than your opinion that there was enough of something? Incest is present in many forms in books, aside of Jaime and Cersei we have Aegon and his sisters, or Jaehaerys and Alysanne, but jut as important is that GRRM went great leght to make Jon and Arya not real siblings.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

How can anyone know what a character's age is going to be by the time the books end? Have they read the ending yet to come to this conclusion?

Extrapolation from how the timeline has been going for some 5 books now I guess. Although if the fabled 'Winter that lasts a generation' is only shown for a month or two into it after all this build up its a bit of a cheat.

[lojzelote]

Julia,

what I am saying with the Catelyn comparison is that GRRM is not gentle to his characters. Sterling people suffer terrible fates whether they "deserve" it or not. Jon is a good guy who meant well, but he brought upon himself what has happened to him at the end of ADwD (far more than Cat had, as an example). He acted arrogantly and recklessly, he let himself be swept away by wishful thinking, distracted from his true calling, and then he was faced with reality. He does not need a redemption arc. He didn't act out of evil intent, although his actions may lead to needless death of his men and wildlings alike. But, in the words of the book characters, he acted a boy, not a man. His reasons are easy to sympathize with, we're meant to sympathize with him, but it doesn't change he failed those he was supposed to lead and got himself killed in the process and now he'll have to face the unpleasant consequences.

If you can't see why an average reader would feel with an unJon who would still possess vast majority of his human emotions, although he would be psychologically and physically damaged, I don't know what to tell you. Why would he want to stay alive? Well, why did he bloody want to stay alive before the stabbing? He was sworn for life in a Siberia-like prison colony, his entire family was murdered, those responsible were ruling the North and the Seven Kingdoms, he was never to have a family of his own, no fame, no riches, no nothing, a zombie apocalypse at the gates. For all purposes he was burried alive and his life didn't belong to himself but to an organization he had joined at fourteen. It's not like if his status was that different from that of a possible unJon, fan theories disregarding.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

lojzelote,

The question is, why do you exclude the ability of the specific sort of emotions but not other sorts?

Why would he be less of a human for romance but human enough so that other developements such as L would make enough of an impact? And why would he have the "priviledge" to keep his POV after death when Cat did not?

[Mithras]

Jon does not need to be an undead to be psychologically and physically damaged. Because he is already hoarding psychological and physical wounds since the beginning of the series.

[Son of Man]

I think their relationship would be even more interesting now with the present story. In the outline it just sounded like forbidden love between two protagonists, but now with Arya being as damaged as she is and the potential for "unJon" I'm really excited to see where their relationship could go.

It would make Jon interesting. I want to see Jon finally admist his feelings for Arya. He might be the only one who can save her from her evil ways. She runs to the wall and meets up with Jon. Tyrion just lets her go and contents himself with Casterly Rock. Meanwhile, if Jon is AA, he ends up sacrificing Arya to get his red sword.

[sweetsunray]

IMO 14 is not too young in historical/fantasy lit to have a romantic relationship. When I was a pre-teen reading historical teen novels, most of the girls the protagonist loved or married, or the female heroin were 14-15, including marriage and hints at sex (no explicit scenes of it). One of my still fav teen books is about a 14 year old girl who marries a 25 year old to save his life of the scaffold, and there's nothing pedo about them.

In most western countries teens are only of sexual maturity legally at 16, meaning, from 16 on they are regarded as being able to give informed consent to engage in sex with another adult, including a 50 year old. And in some western countries they have laws regarding teen sexuality... usually that from 14 year on a teen can give informed consent to have sex with another adolescent, with a max age gap of 5 years. So, in Canada a 14 year old and a 19 year old sleeping together is legal.

[lojzelote]

lojzelote,

The question is, why do you exclude the ability of the specific sort of emotions but not other sorts?

Why would he be less of a human for romance but human enough so that other developements such as L would make enough of an impact? And why would he have the "priviledge" to keep his POV after death when Cat did not?

I said nothing of the sort. What I'm highly doubtful about is that he'll be crowned king, marry his tween sister (or any other girl) and then they'll make little princes and princesses together. Now more than ever.

I can't tell you what an unJon would be like anyway. How could I? The only two known examples are Beric and Catelyn, and they are extremes. Also I've noticed that while Beric died again with every new fatal wound, Catelyn is still walking around with her cut throat and doesn't mind... so I'm not sure how it works even physically.

I'm assuming he would better off due to what GRRM has written in his books about Beric losing his memory gradually with each new revival and Catelyn having been rotting in the lake for far too long.

He's privileged like that because he's a more important character than Cat? It all comes down to GRRM's preferences. For that matter, I think that one of the reasons why GRRM added Melisandre to the list of POVs is because it means we'll be able to view Jon from outside far more often. (And Mel is, I believe, also an undead, albeit of a different kind than unBeric and unCat.)

[Lady Blackmont]

IMO 14 is not too young in historical/fantasy lit to have a romantic relationship. When I was a pre-teen reading historical teen novels, most of the girls the protagonist loved or married, or the female heroin were 14-15, including marriage and hints at sex (no explicit scenes of it). One of my still fav teen books is about a 14 year old girl who marries a 25 year old to save his life of the scaffold, and there's nothing pedo about them.

In most western countries teens are only of sexual maturity legally at 16, meaning, from 16 on they are regarded as being able to give informed consent to engage in sex with another adult, including a 50 year old. And in some western countries they have laws regarding teen sexuality... usually that from 14 year on a teen can give informed consent to have sex with another adolescent, with a max age gap of 5 years. So, in Canada a 14 year old and a 19 year old sleeping together is legal.

It doesn't make it any less repulsive to me.

Dany may have appreciated Khal Drogo, but I found the relationship revolting, and, for most of the story, unhealthy.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

^ I don't know, but IMO if Jon ends up un/dead he should get the same treatment as the rest, that is, no POV and not (significant for the reader) emotional response. Persionally now I can't see any other future developement than permanent death for my fav Cat, so I see that the same would be for Jon too: emotional detachement from the part of the reader, so a true literary death for the character. So if Jon is dead in any way, l believe we should forget about him having any role at all save from that of plot device.

Eta, that was a response to lojzelote's post, and sorry for the typos, phone does not help a lot...

[Winter's Cold]

It's quite possible that a relationship between Jon and Arya will happen. Jon is the only man that Arya can fully trust. Arya is Jon's preferred type. Jon dies thinking of Arya. Jon and Arya's grandparents were cousins who grew up together and eventually married. It would not be surprising if that development occurs in the novels.

[IceFire125]

Martin might still go forward with Jon and Arya. However, I'm not sure now after he abandoned the 5 yr gap. Another thought is Jon and Arya (with another face?) might be an option that could be more acceptable and more ironic?

As in, in Jon's thoughts, he will have this constant feeling that this girl continues to remind him of Arya. Martin has conditioned us with Jon's voicing his thoughts to us, the readers, with Ygritte and Alys reminding him of Arya, etc.

So a dramatic irony of sort could be that when Jon do falls for this girl, they both have their little intimate nights and stuff, then comes a big test. Maybe someone will name Jon for her to kill (if she's still a Faceless Men at this time). The reason I brought this up, the whole "only death pays for life." That the biggest tragedy with Jon and Arya is that, Arya could not bring herself to kill Jon. I think she will kill herself that Jon may live, and then Jon sees Needle at this girl's hip and the thought of horror as Jon takes the face off of this girl and he sees Arya.

“If you kill a man, and never mean t’, he’s just as dead,” Ygritte said stubbornly. Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever?

[lojzelote]

^ I don't know, but IMO if Jon ends up un/dead he should get the same treatment as the rest, that is, no POV and not (significant for the reader) emotional response. Persionally now I can't see any other future developement than permanent death for my fav Cat, so I see that the same would be for Jon too: emotional detachement from the part of the reader, so a true literary death for the character. So if Jon is dead in any way, l believe we should forget about him having any role at all save from that of plot device.

Eta, that was a response to lojzelote's post, and sorry for the typos, phone does not help a lot...

I get what you're saying, but, as I said, he would likely be much more preserved than Catelyn. After all, Catelyn had had a mental breakdown (clawing her own face, ffs) before they cut her throat and then she was rotting for such a long time that Thoros considered it unethical to resurrect her, although he had done the same for Beric repeatedly. GRRM is the ultimate god of this universe and he decides the rules.

That said, if I were GRRM, I would never include this undead business to begin with. I don't think that Cat needed it any more than Jon does, but I'm not the author. It reminds me of what he has said of some stories becoming overtaken with magic and becoming too unreal to take seriously. I mean, why couldn't be Catelyn taken hostage as it had been originally planned and be rescued by the Riverlanders when they were taking her to Casterly Rock or King's Landing? Then she could still plan her hair-raising revenge on everybody Frey and Lannister without the croaking and all. I think that a messed up living Catelyn would be far more terrifying than LS in her own way. :dunno:

[Julia H.]

lojzelote,

So, one the one hand, you are saying that UnJon would somehow be wrong and Arya would be horrified by what he has become so she would probably want to offer him the gift of mercy:

Why I'm writing this here, well, this turn of events makes King Jon or some sort of Epilogue Engagement even less likely for me than ever. He may be still be in for a tumble in the sheets (since this is GRRM), but I wouldn't consider him a perspective long-lasting ruler or life partner to anybody anymore. He's going to come back wrong, one way or the other.

Personally I find it more likely that she'll be horrified when she finds out what he's become (just like I don't think she would be too thrilled with meeting Lady Stoneheart) and offer him the gift of mercy.

On the other hand, you are saying:

1) UnJon will do his duty better and more conscientiously than he did before dying, and will possibly be in a leadership position, with the NW being unaware of what he really is;

2) UnJon will possess the vast majority of human emotions and he will be generally better off than UnBeric and UnCat (although still psychologically and physically damaged);

3) unlike UnBeric, who seemed to develop a rather casual attitude to dying and who voluntarily gave up his unlife in the end, UnJon will value his unlife as any mortal would value his / her true life (IMO that's the only way for his ultimate heroic sacrifice to have any meaning);

4) it will reach the point where the reader will also sympathize with him and want to him to go on ... hm... living, and his second death will be perceived to be a loss;

5) his unlife will not be much different from his previous life in Castle Black.

If you can't see why an average reader would feel with an unJon who would still possess vast majority of his human emotions, although he would be psychologically and physically damaged, I don't know what to tell you. Why would he want to stay alive? Well, why did he bloody want to stay alive before the stabbing? He was sworn for life in a Siberia-like prison colony, his entire family was murdered, those responsible were ruling the North and the Seven Kingdoms, he was never to have a family of his own, no fame, no riches, no nothing, a zombie apocalypse at the gates. For all purposes he was burried alive and his life didn't belong to himself but to an organization he had joined at fourteen. It's not like if his status was that different from that of a possible unJon, fan theories disregarding.

I'm assuming he would better off due to what GRRM has written in his books about Beric losing his memory gradually with each new revival and Catelyn having been rotting in the lake for far too long.

He's privileged like that because he's a more important character than Cat? It all comes down to GRRM's preferences.

My questions are:

What exactly is so horrifying about this UnJon that Arya would sooner give him the gift of mercy than be happy to see him again - that, as you say, she would have the same reaction to him as to Lady Stoneheart (while you are emphasizing the differences between them)? The fact that he is psychologically and physically damaged? Who isn't damaged in this world?

More importantly, what would make this UnJon (as you describe him) UnJon in the first place rather than a fully resurrected human being (Jon), albeit in some ways damaged - but still possessing the vast majority of human emotions? What would make him different from the living Jon and what exactly is it that would make him horrifying, as horrifying as Lady Stoneheart, in the eyes of the character who loves him more than anyone else in the world, while, at the same time, the reader would be supposed to feel a loss at his ultimate death and consider this death a meaningful and heroic sacrifice for a noble purpose, contrary to what many of us feel in the case of Lady Stoneheart?

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Martin might still go forward with Jon and Arya. However, I'm not sure now after he abandoned the 5 yr gap. Another thought is Jon and Arya (with another face?) might be an option that could be more acceptable and more ironic?

As in, in Jon's thoughts, he will have this constant feeling that this girl continues to remind him of Arya. Martin has conditioned us with Jon's voicing his thoughts to us, the readers, with Ygritte and Alys reminding him of Arya, etc.

So a dramatic irony of sort could be that when Jon do falls for this girl, they both have their little intimate nights and stuff, then comes a big test. Maybe someone will name Jon for her to kill (if she's still a Faceless Men at this time). The reason I brought this up, the whole "only death pays for life." That the biggest tragedy with Jon and Arya is that, Arya could not bring herself to kill Jon. I think she will kill herself that Jon may live, and then Jon sees Needle at this girl's hip and the thought of horror as Jon takes the face off of this girl and he sees Arya.

“If you kill a man, and never mean t’, he’s just as dead,” Ygritte said stubbornly. Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever?

George's own words about his original plans before they leaked:

Some major characters — yes, I always had plans, what Tyrion's arc was gonna be through this, what Arya's arc was gonna be through this, what Jon Snow's arc is gonna be. I knew what the principal deaths were gonna be, and when they were coming. That would be the closest thing.

But there would be some secondary characters, like Bronn, Tyrion's henchman, [who] became a such a popular character. He came out of nowhere. [i was thinking], "Okay, Tyrion has meets these two sellswords, Bronn and Chiggen. And one's going to fight for him. Which one is it gonna be? Okay, we'll go with Bronn." But as I wrote about him, he developed a personality of his own.

Who is the most major character you've changed you mind about your plans for?

I don't want to reveal what I've planned for some of these characters, but I'm pretty well on track with most of the major characters. It's minor characters like Bronn that assume greater importance.

The major characters are sorted, the minor ones are where he's making it up as he goes more. I also remember D&D saying that GRRM has very definite ideas about the major characters but I cannot for the life of me find that interview, there are so many.

[Mithras]

I also remember D&D saying that GRRM has very definite ideas about the major characters but I cannot for the life of me find that interview, there are so many.

What I remember from that interview is that according to D&D, George didnot even decide how those main characters would reach those destinations in some cases.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

What I remember from that interview is that according to D&D, George didnot even decide how those main characters would reach those destinations in some cases.

I found a few interviews in the same sort of vein but not the one I was specifically looking for. They said, they sat down and went through each character asking what their story is. And they used Arya and Dany as examples of what they asked for. GRRM had definite ideas for the main ones but for minor characters he was more flexible. There was another one where they said it was like GRRM knew a mountain was coming up but not how he's going to get there. I think that obviously Bronn as GRRM has stated and from the TV series so far Brienne and Pod are minor characters who grew to be more important that are perhaps more flexible. Whereas Dany, Arya, Jon, Tyrion, Cersei, Jaime, Sansa, Bran, GRRM has those on a lock regarding where they will end up.

[sweetsunray]

It doesn't make it any less repulsive to me.

Dany may have appreciated Khal Drogo, but I found the relationship revolting, and, for most of the story, unhealthy.

It would have been as repulsive if she had been 16 or 18 just as well.