Jon & Arya - hints and overall significance of their relationship (including part 3)

[lojzelote]

Well, I think this discussion is irrelevant now because the show has pretty much convinced me that Jon will be a goner by the end of the series. They've been very explicit about his fate at the end of ADwD, he's dead, not merely badly injured, and it made me almost certain that that has happened in the books as well. It's always been fifty fifty for me, but the show suggests that he's dead, and I don't see a good reason to doubt it, because while they have diverged from the books in many ways, Jon's death and subsequent revival by Melisandre is a likely outcome in the books as well.

Which is to say he's going the way of a re-animated corpse like unBeric and unCat, albeit he's unlikely to be as mentally and physically damaged as them, since they are extreme cases, the former raised several times, the latter rotting in the water for days. Still, I can't see a magically resurrected person survive and prosper at the end, however well-preserved they may be, since I believe that after the final battle of ice and fire, magic will leave Westeros ala Lord of the Rings.

Anyway, even if he survived, I expect his body won't be working properly (since it is highly unlikely there will be no damage at all), therefore I just can't imagine him as a king of anything. For one, I think it's very likely that his reanimated body will be infertile, as I've got the feeling that magic and fertility don't mix particularly well in this world (think Maegor the Cruel, who is implied to had been probably conceived via magical means and who himself had fathered only stillborn and deformed babies), which would make him a poor candidate for a dynastic ruler, if nothing else. (Something like that would still be much better for him than getting a complete personality make-over and looking hideous like Lady Stoneheart.)

Why I'm writing this here, well, this turn of events makes King Jon or some sort of Epilogue Engagement even less likely for me than ever. He may be still be in for a tumble in the sheets (since this is GRRM), but I wouldn't consider him a perspective long-lasting ruler or life partner to anybody anymore. He's going to come back wrong, one way or the other.

[Chocs]

Because the show has been so faithful to the books. Balon Greyjoy won the WOT5K without leaving Pyke.

Anyways, no point in discussing about the show here, otherwise this thread will probably get closed or something.

I do think Jon will come back more cold and ruthless. Definitely not the same guy who lived by his honor, but being stabbed continuously by the men who were suppose to be loyal to him, I don't really expect anything else.

[The Anti-Targ]

It's just creepy. There's already plenty of incest, no reason to add more. Plus, unless GRRM makes the books take a long in-universe time to finish (which he's shown he's incapable of doing) or does a timeskip(which he's also shown he's incapable of doing) then its also pedophilia.

But it's not incest if they are cousins. Even among non-Targs cousins marrying isn't ick or against the laws of the 7. They think they are half-siblings, but when they find out they are cousins is makes them free to take their love in a romantic direction.

[Joan Jett]

@lojzelote How does any of that make this thread irrelevant? I don't see how Jon being infertile or dead and not King by the end of the series could have any affect on the possibility of Arya and Jon's relationship becoming romantic or important in some way. Unless he's dead for good I don't see what you're getting at.

Edit: Okay so I thought about it and some of the evidence for Jon/Arya being a potential couple rely on quotes that indicate that Jon may become King and I guess you were trying to discredit that and subsequently discredit evidence for any potential relationship between the two. But the thing is that there's also evidence that doesn't mention Jon becoming King like the "Black Bastard" quotes and the theif/sexuality association that exists in both of their stories. And there's other hints too. I don't think this thread will ever be irrelevant.

[lojzelote]

Because the show has been so faithful to the books. Balon Greyjoy won the WOT5K without leaving Pyke.

Anyways, no point in discussing about the show here, otherwise this thread will probably get closed or something.

I do think Jon will come back more cold and ruthless. Definitely not the same guy who lived by his honor, but being stabbed continuously by the men who were suppose to be loyal to him, I don't really expect anything else.

Because the books seem to be going that way as well? This is hardly a show-only thing. In fact, the only reason why I doubted that Jon died at the end of ADwD is that I thought GRRM would chicken out at someting like killing and bringing back one of the Big Three (and keeping them a POV), but I changed my mind now.

I expect physical consequences of some kind, too.

^^How does any of that make this thread irrelevant? I don't see how Jon being infertile or dead and not King by the end of the series could have any affect on the possibility of Arya and Jon's relationship becoming romantic or important in some way. Unless he's dead for good I don't see what you're getting at.

Well, it would make much of the foreshadowing not foreshadowing at all. Not to mention, they would really have to fuck when she is thirteen at most.

[lojzelote]

@lojzelote How does any of that make this thread irrelevant? I don't see how Jon being infertile or dead and not King by the end of the series could have any affect on the possibility of Arya and Jon's relationship becoming romantic or important in some way. Unless he's dead for good I don't see what you're getting at.

Edit: Okay so I thought about it and some of the evidence for Jon/Arya being a potential couple rely on quotes that indicate that Jon may become King and I guess you were trying to discredit that and subsequently discredit evidence for any potential relationship between the two. But the thing is that there's also evidence that doesn't mention Jon becoming King like the "Black Bastard" quotes and the theif/sexuality association that exists in both of their stories. And there's other hints too. I don't think this thread will ever be irrelevant.

You're free to believe it, but I don't. :)

[Ice Turtle]

...

Not irrelevant at all even if you dont like it. Show Jon still seems to me in better condition that certain characters jumping into 5 centimeters of snow from the height of ten storey building. Most of the fans believe they will be back without major injuries. And with the way TV cliffhangers work they are probably right. But this is really not the place to discuss it.

Lets assume for the argument that Jon is really dead. It is not impossible, not even that improbable but the chance that he will not return to the story is almost nonexistent. He very well might return almost alright due some one time magical occurence like Dany hatching living dragons from stone eggs. He might return only little better than UnCat and Beric, but it still doesnt prove he cant be king in some way or have romantic relationship with Arya, even if it would add some tragic quality to it. Maybe he would be still even able to procreate, even if magic had some hard rules we dont know them. Arya is a one female POV character who has very close and very strange relationship with death, dont assume she would play by rules.

[Julia H.]

I don't watch the show, but lately I've been learning a lot about what's happening there - on this forum.

As for Jon's "return"...

If he returns undead, that will be the end of the character Jon Snow. If you look at Beric, he had practically no storyline before being undead, we hardly got a glimpse or two of him while he was alive. Catelyn Tully Stark's storyline, sadly, ended with the Red Wedding. Lady Stoneheart is essentially a different character, who just happens to have some or all of Catelyn's memories, but she has a totally different purpose / agenda / personality in the novel. Logically, it would be the same with an UnJon character - he would be essentially a different character, and in that case not only the Arya - Jon foreshadowing would be in vain, but all the expectations built-up regarding Jon finding out his true parentage (UnBeric doesn't remember the mother he knew, what does that suggest for an UnJon character?), regarding Jon learning to become a leader and probably other things. It would all be lost just to get yet another UnCharacter. I frankly don't see the point.

Regarding the view that Jon may be somewhere between an undead and a living character or that he might be kind of both undead and alive - alive for certain purposes but undead for others - it doesn't seem likely. The "usual" solutions in the ASOIAF world could have him either fully alive (without actually dying) or undead with only a "shadow life" (or simply dead, but that is not likely either). Any "unusual" or "unique" solution in his case (like Dany's pyre) must be very well explained and has to have a strict internal logic, which could easily be cheapened if he were turned into a sort of "super-undead", who somehow had to pay a "lower price" for coming back, into a character that manages to complete Jon's story arc in some respects, but is still not the "real thing" somehow.

The last option is that Jon will be a fully alive human being. The stabbing will probably still have a great psychological (not magical) effect on him - he will probably be a harder, more bitter person, and it is often said that a near-death experience changes a person's perspective to life. In addition, the Ides of March is built up to be a dramatic turning point in his storyline.

Whatever magic (if any) is used in the (healing?) process may still have some kind of side-effect - but there is nothing to suggest that this will specifically affect Jon's ability to fulfil any role that he might have been able to fulfil before or that this will specifically affect his fertility (Maegor is a different story) or anything else specifically, at least not to the extent that it would make any question about his human future a moot point at this moment.

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

snip

Agreed with everything you said.BTW i know that that we are not supposed to mention the show but since some posters have brought it into our discussion as to why Jon won't be king,i will the opposite as well.

Tormund to Jon=You've spent to much time with us Jon Snow,you will never a kneeler again.

Someone mentioned that JS is dead ,noone has argued about that.The Jon Snow we knew is probably dead but we can never be sure that he will be brought back the way LS was or Beric.For me there has been much foreshadowing that his resseruction will be thanks to the Old Gods and Bran,not Rhilor.

[lojzelote]

Not irrelevant at all even if you dont like it. Show Jon still seems to me in better condition that certain characters jumping into 5 centimeters of snow from the height of ten storey building. Most of the fans believe they will be back without major injuries. And with the way TV cliffhangers work they are probably right. But this is really not the place to discuss it.

Lets assume for the argument that Jon is really dead. It is not impossible, not even that improbable but the chance that he will not return to the story is almost nonexistent. He very well might return almost alright due some one time magical occurence like Dany hatching living dragons from stone eggs. He might return only little better than UnCat and Beric, but it still doesnt prove he cant be king in some way or have romantic relationship with Arya, even if it would add some tragic quality to it. Maybe he would be still even able to procreate, even if magic had some hard rules we dont know them. Arya is a one female POV character who has very close and very strange relationship with death, dont assume she would play by rules.

In a better condition, he is not. He was obviously dead and he was confirmed dead by the show creators, while the wall jumpers were confirmed to be alive. He's not certainly in a good shape in the books either, he's dying on the spot, but I've used to think that Mel could still make it in time and heal him with her magical superpowers before he crosses the River Styx, but I don't believe that anymore. He's going to cross that line (which Dany or Bran never crossed) before she learns what is happpening or she decides to help him, and there will be no cheating it because GRRM wouldn't set up the whole "they come back wrong", only to forget about it when he writes arguably the most important case of an undead person.

As for his ultimate fate, I think he may somehow manage to assume a position of leadership again (although it'll probably be hard in his state and after the fiasco in ADwD), but not as an endgame king, more likely he'll be "king" in the mythical sense, a person of royal blood who dies (again) for the realm and its people. It would make sense since he first died because he turned away from his duties and was brought back to fulfill them, that the second time he'll die trying to fulfill them. Like the 79 sentinels, he'll too be punished for leaving his post. He's been warned again and again against breaking the vows and he knew well that his destiny is at the Wall, but he didn't care enough, and he'll pay for it. I doubt there's any place for making babies with a twelve or thirteen years old Arya in it, even if he didn't lose the ability to procreate, but if you really like the idea... fair enough. Personally I find it more likely that she'll be horrified when she finds out what he's become (just like I don't think she would be too thrilled with meeting Lady Stoneheart) and offer him the gift of mercy.

[Julia H.]

In a better condition, he is not. He was obviously dead and he was confirmed dead by the show creators, while the wall jumpers were confirmed to be alive. He's not certainly in a good shape in the books either, he's dying on the spot, but I've used to think that Mel could still make it in time and heal him with her magical superpowers before he crosses the River Styx, but I don't believe that anymore. He's going to cross that line (which Dany or Bran never crossed) before she learns what is happpening or she decides to help him, and there will be no cheating it because GRRM wouldn't set up the whole "they come back wrong", only to forget about it when he writes arguably the most important case of an undead person.

As for his ultimate fate, I think he may somehow manage to assume a position of leadership again (although it'll probably be hard in his state and after the fiasco in ADwD), but not as an endgame king, more likely he'll be "king" in the mythical sense, a person of royal blood who dies (again) for the realm and its people. It would make sense since he first died because he turned away from his duties and was brought back to fulfill them, that the second time he'll die trying to fulfill them. Like the 79 sentinels, he'll too be punished for leaving his post. He's been warned again and again against breaking the vows and he knew well that his destiny is at the Wall, but he didn't care enough, and he'll pay for it. I doubt there's any place for making babies with a twelve or thirteen years old Arya in it, even if he didn't lose the ability to procreate, but if you really like the idea... fair enough. Personally I find it more likely that she'll be horrified when she finds out what he's become (just like I don't think she would be too thrilled with meeting Lady Stoneheart) and offer him the gift of mercy.

Yes, when Jon Snow and the Watch are threatened by a psychopath unless they turn over to him some of their guests (guest right is huge in ASOIAF) and a couple of people they simply do not have, he abandons the otherwise already dead neutrality principle and takes action - that is totally uncaring behaviour and desertion deserving of divine punishment, especially of a person who has a record of sacrificing everything he has ever had or could have had personally for his duty.

What exactly would have been the dutiful thing to do? Burning the letter and hoping Ramsay was only joking? Or sending three women and a baby to a person boasting about flaying women, with apologies that he did not have the other two hostages?

I don't think it will be left to the Undead to save the realm from the Others or to simply die for the realm either. A hero must be fully human and alive and ready to lay down his true life - not his unlife, not his shadow life, not his monster life that would horrify people (as you suppose) - but his only life for the realm. That is the only way to make that sacrifice or even the possibility of that sacrifice meaningful. UnBeric dying? Lady Stoneheart dying? Come on, what effect does it have in comparison with the death of a young hero, who could live and is still willing to die for the people he is protecting?

BTW, I can't imagine an undead person in a leadership role on the Wall. With the experience of the wildlings, they would want to burn him at once, and so would the Watch.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I think Jon will be King. I think he will come back from the dead in a better shape than Cat or Beric because the circumstances are different

- His body will be preserved in the Ice cells, reducing impact on his brain and organs

- His consciousness will be preserved in Ghost, Cat and Beric had no such preservation.

So while Mel can resurrect his body in an OK state, his mind will come from Ghost and that is where the differences will be. The longer he is in ghost the more wolfish he will become. He's been denying this nature, insisting that he is a man and not a wolf. Unlike Bran and Arya who embrace it. Jon will embrace his wolf-ishness. He will come back far more savage. But I think he will still be Jon recognisably. GRRM keeps mentioning Beric being consumed by his mission. I think Jon, unchained by the watch will be much the same. He wanted to defeat the Boltons. Its quite possible when he comes back, that will be the big display of New Jon. Maybe paralleling Arya being reborn and taking out the Freys (Arya is metaphorically dead)

[Son of Man]

Well in the original plan for the GoT trilogy one of the main themes was Jon and Arya fall in love but then Tyrion falls for her as well. Maybe GRRM has in store something with Arya and Jon getting married still at the end of the series, or maybe something with Tyrion and them two, idk just spit balling

or maybe it's just lay over stuff, like he wanted to make them fall in love so it seems more so in the beginning before the characters started to drift and form their own separate identities

You are right about that. It was Martin's plan from the start. At least according to the letter that he sent to the publisher/editor when he was first selling his story.

Arya is very far away from the wall at the moment, however. And does that mean Tyrion will screw Arya behind Sansa's back/

[lojzelote]

Yes, when Jon Snow and the Watch are threatened by a psychopath unless they turn over to him some of their guests (guest right is huge in ASOIAF) and a couple of people they simply do not have, he abandons the otherwise already dead neutrality principle and takes action - that is totally uncaring behaviour and desertion deserving of divine punishment, especially of a person who has a record of sacrificing everything he has ever had or could have had personally for his duty.

What exactly would have been the dutiful thing to do? Burning the letter and hoping Ramsay was only joking? Or sending three women and a baby to a person boasting about flaying women, with apologies that he did not have the other two hostages?

I don't think it will be left to the Undead to save the realm from the Others or to simply die for the realm either. A hero must be fully human and alive and ready to lay down his true life - not his unlife, not his shadow life, not his monster life that would horrify people (as you suppose) - but his only life for the realm. That is the only way to make that sacrifice or even the possibility of that sacrifice meaningful. UnBeric dying? Lady Stoneheart dying? Come on, what effect does it have in comparison with the death of a young hero, who could live and is still willing to die for the people he is protecting?

BTW, I can't imagine an undead person in a leadership role on the Wall. With the experience of the wildlings, they would want to burn him at once, and so would the Watch.

He was meant never to entangle himself into the mess in the first place. Have you read The Meereense Blot and its author's take on Jon's struggle in ADwD? That's the view Ran reported GRRM said he had been going for. Jon was put in an unfair position, but you know, the world is unfair and the consequences come whether you meant well or not. Or do you think that GRRM was fair to Catelyn? He had killed her beloved husband, her father, he let her believe that every single of her children was dead, lost or being raped (with the very last of them being cruelly killed in front of her), he let every of her plans go awry, and in the end he made her go insane and killed her and brought her back as a ghastly, croaking antithesis of herself.

Why does he have to be "truly alive"? What if the fact he got so close to death will make him all the more thirst for life and fear death? What if he remembers that cold moment when soul escaped from his dying body into Ghost's with terror? How would that make his possible sacrifice any less meaningful? Also remember, he wouldn't be in such a bad condition as unBeric and unCat. Beric had been resurrected six times, and every of those times he lost piece of himself. Similarly Thoros had refused to resurrect Catelyn because she had been left for dead way too long. That was why he was so terrified when Beric passed her the kiss and she rose.

As for what people will tell, well, I believe that one of two scenarios is possible: 1, his body will be taken away shortly after the stabbing before anybody can check he's truly dead and not merely fatally injured, and Mel will resurrect him privately, claiming she only healed him, or 2, Mel will manage to pass it as a miracle event, although she knows it's not really a miracle, and people will buy into it (Mel loves shows, doesn't she?).

Either way, it doesn't stretch credibility any more than that he'll survive the stab wounds he's suffered.

For that matter, I agree with you that the undead are a grave misstep on the author's part, I've never been fond of the idea, beginning already with Beric, but here I am, I believe now that this is the way the author is going to take the story.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

You are right about that. It was Martin's plan from the start. At least according to the letter that he sent to the publisher/editor when he was first selling his story.

Arya is very far away from the wall at the moment, however. And does that mean Tyrion will screw Arya behind Sansa's back/

Arya is closer to the Wall than she is to Tyrion. Its just that there is the sea between her and the Wall and not land.

However Tyrion in Arya's story has clearly been replaced with Ramsey and his fake Arya as far as the rivalry with Jon is concerned.

[Lady Blackmont]

She will be 14 years old at the end of the series. Any relationship with Jon at that age would be... :bawl: :frown5: :crying:

George gave us our fill of Incest with Jamie and Cersei, that was not in the original narrative, so any evidence there may be immediately dismissed.

[Julia H.]

He was meant never to entangle himself into the mess in the first place. Have you read The Meereense Blot and its author's take on Jon's struggle in ADwD? That's the view Ran reported GRRM said he had been going for. Jon was put in an unfair position, but you know, the world is unfair and the consequences come whether you meant well or not. Or do you think that GRRM was fair to Catelyn? He had killed her beloved husband, her father, he let her believe that every single of her children was dead, lost or being raped (with the very last of them being cruelly killed in front of her), he let every of her plans go awry, and in the end he made her go insane and killed her and brought her back as a ghastly, croaking antithesis of herself.

Why does he have to be "truly alive"? What if the fact he got so close to death will make him all the more thirst for life and fear death? What if he remembers that cold moment when soul escaped from his dying body into Ghost's with terror? How would that make his possible sacrifice any less meaningful? Also remember, he wouldn't be in such a bad condition as unBeric and unCat. Beric had been resurrected six times, and every of those times he lost piece of himself. Similarly Thoros had refused to resurrect Catelyn because she had been left for dead way too long. That was why he was so terrified when Beric passed her the kiss and she rose.

As for what people will tell, well, I believe that one of two scenarios is possible: 1, his body will be taken away shortly after the stabbing before anybody can check he's truly dead and not merely fatally injured, and Mel will resurrect him privately, claiming she only healed him, or 2, Mel will manage to pass it as a miracle event, although she knows it's not really a miracle, and people will buy into it (Mel loves shows, doesn't she?).

Either way, it doesn't stretch credibility any more than that he'll survive the stab wounds he's suffered.

For that matter, I agree with you that the undead are a grave misstep on the author's part, I've never been fond of the idea, beginning already with Beric, but here I am, I believe now that this is the way the author is going to take the story.

I won't go into the Mereneese blot right now, but regarding "fairness" - I wasn't complaining that Jon had it any worse than many other characters. That was not my point. I'm not even sure why we would compare a difficult situation where Jon has to make a responsible decision to the kind of misfortune where Catelyn loses all her family members. Both are bad things to happen to someone, but beyond that?

Your post seemed to be saying that Jon was killed for a sin he had committed and will be brought back as an undead character to atone for that sin (the likes of which we have never seen in the novel so far) - and it sounds very much like divine intervention to me, as no human can make such a decision about any other specific human. Please, note that I do not intend to put words into your mouth - the above is how I understood your post. If you meant to say something different, please, correct me.

I disagree with the above for a number of reasons:

1. I disagree with the "sin" part. I don't think Jon was going to desert or abandon his duty to the Watch, rather that he reacted to a problem he could not ignore. That is definitely not the greatest sin that has ever been committed in the novel. There are clues suggesting that the "Ides of Marsh" was a planned action, not something done on the spur of the moment, although Jon's decision probably made it necessary that the conspirators act immediately.

2. There are several redemption storylines or potential redemption storylines already in the novel (Jaime, Theon). I don't know if we need another one. That does not mean GRRM can't go in this direction with Jon - but why? It is not how he has built up the Jon character for five books - why turn his story into an atonement story at this point? It would be different if Jon had deserted (without turning back) at the end of the first book and had been living his life in sin or remorse ever since.

3. I trust GRRM and I don't think he would bring Jon back as a super-undead character, who would be "more alive" and "more human" than UnBeric and Lady Stoneheart just so he could do greater things and be afraid of death but otherwise still undead enough not to be able to live a normal life and to horrify the living (like Arya) and make them want to give him the "gift".

4. An undead character may be afraid of a second death as much as he wants, the effect is still not the same as in the case of a living one, who could still live a full life. After all, the reader knows that he is dead and that he won't be able to have a real life any more. What is there to expect from life when even your loving sister is horrified by what you have become? What is the value of this "unlife" the reader can appreciate? Just the fact that the undead character is afraid of the moment of death? You can't have both ways: the life Jon is brought back to is either just a shadow of a life, a monster life horrifying the living, and then its loss is not a big deal for the reader - or it is a life that is still valuable and complete with human emotions and future possibilites so that the reader wants the character to keep it - but then what makes this life different from true life, what makes the person "undead" rather than truly alive and human?

5. GRRM promised that Jon would find out his true parentage. What relevance would that have in the case of an undead character? No emotional impact, no future choices based on the information, nothing...

6. As for the idea that Mel would bring Jon back and make him seem alive when he is really undead without either the wildlings or the watchmen noticing... That would make the whole thing just Mel's scheme, which would have nothing to do with the necessity or chance for Jon to atone - Mel is not interested in Jon's vows. If Jon has to come back so that he can rectify his mistake and to better fulfil his duty to the Watch, then why would GRRM make it seem that the assassination was planned before the arrival of the Pink Letter, and why would he leave it to Mel to turn Jon undead instead of making it a true miracle involving the gods who heard Jon's vows (or whoever is responsible for watching oaths) - and once it is a true miracle (like one that has never been before), then why does Jon have to be undead instead of being truly alive and being able to continue his story arc?

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

She will be 14 years old at the end of the series. Any relationship with Jon at that age would be... :bawl: :frown5: :crying:

George gave us our fill of Incest with Jamie and Cersei, that was not in the original narrative, so any evidence there may be immediately dismissed.

Rhaegar was in his 20s when he was eying a 14 year old Lyanna. For some reason fan art never seems to reflect that Lyanna was a child and Rhaegar was a 20 something man.

[Lady Blackmont]

A Jon/Arya relationship isn't brilliant storytelling or anything like that, I really can't see George putting it in, not after what they've become.

[Joan Jett]

A Jon/Arya relationship isn't brilliant storytelling or anything like that, I really can't see George putting it in, not after what they've become.

I think their relationship would be even more interesting now with the present story. In the outline it just sounded like forbidden love between two protagonists, but now with Arya being as damaged as she is and the potential for "unJon" I'm really excited to see where their relationship could go.