The Starks Are Not First Men (Spoilers All)

[PrettyPig]

So, it appears that the "blood of the dragon" is literally reptile blood in their veins. Targaryens are known to give birth to misshapen, eyeless, limbless monstrosities occasionally. Dany is the last representative of that tradition. Lizard-men and Shrykes seem to be the by-products of those bloodmagic experiments. The men with bat wings are also the same.

Sorry, would you refresh my memory on the men with the bat wings? I haven't completed all of the World Book and this one is escaping me.

If we have Batmen (yes, I went there) that are basically failed Valyrian eugenics experiments and we are looking at a race of proto-Valyrian First First Men as part of this theory, could these have filtered over to become the basis for some of the Riverlord lines (Black Harren and his ilk, Lothston, Whent)? First Men ancestors, black bats, dark blood magic.....

[Bryanfury]

The issue I immediately have with the premise of the Starks origins being similar to that of the Valyrians is that there is a separation of several thousands of years and no evidence that migration occurred Westeros -> Essos rather than the Essos -> Westeros.

[Musashisamurai]

I don't think the OP theorized that Valyrians went to Valyria from Westeros-rather that another group of men migrated to Westeros before the First Men did, and the Starks (descendants of these men, along with maybe a few other houses, Dayne, Hightower, possibly) and Valyrians share a common ancestor

[Bryanfury]

I don't think the OP theorized that Valyrians went to Valyria from Westeros-rather that another group of men migrated to Westeros before the First Men did, and the Starks (descendants of these men, along with maybe a few other houses, Dayne, Hightower, possibly) and Valyrians share a common ancestor

My point being this group of men would have migrated thousands of years before the Valyrians came into existence. How the heck do you explain that? Randoms cross the Sunset Sea and become the Starks et al, yet thousands of years later a group of sheep herders develop magic and tame dragons and suddenly the sheep herders also originated from the Sunset Sea but without coming from Westeros?

Nah. Piss poor theory, weak with no real evidence. The OP has literally made suggestions that are contrary to the text.

[Musashisamurai]

As pointed out in the world book, it seems there was a race before Valyria that created and bred dragons first, judging from the oily and black stones around the world. At some point, they either became the modern Valyrians or they taught their arts to these sheep herders, or whatever. Meanwhile, some of these Proto-Valyrians had earlier migrated to Westeros where they changed their culture, magic, and lifestyles over the thousands of years they'd been there.

Again, the TWOIAF seems to imply that the shepherds in Valyria didn't create the magic themselves; they learned it from an earlier race and then adapted it and mastered it themselves.

[Bryanfury]

And I'll point this out myself again; how are the Valyrians thus related at all, with any sort of common ancestor, to a completely unfounded idea of a race coming from across the Sunset Sea? Even assuming the Sunset Sea folk are real and not First Men, they STILL are separated from the Proto-Valyrians by several thousand years and STILL would not share a common ancestor under this proposition.

So, back to my first post, my issue with the premise that the non-First Men Starks are related to the Valyrians is utter drivel with evidence from the books actually working against such a premise in the first place. Cheers.

[Musashisamurai]

Again, its not an unfounded idea that there was some sort of Proto-Valyrian race...and if the Valyrians and Starks are both descended from the Proto-Valyrians, then they share a common ancestor.

Your not even arguing right now. Your just saying no....if there is evidence from the books that refutes this theory, please do show me.

[Bryanfury]

Again, its not an unfounded idea that there was some sort of Proto-Valyrian race...and if the Valyrians and Starks are both descended from the Proto-Valyrians, then they share a common ancestor.

Your not even arguing right now. Your just saying no....if there is evidence from the books that refutes this theory, please do show me.

I'm saying no because the theory is X race came from Sunset sea, X race made Starks and X race made Valyrians. The problem is there is no actual evidence that X race, if it exists at all, came from the Sunset Sea, there is no actual evidence that X race turned into the Starks (this is LITERALLY arguing against the established text that the Starks are First Men and I'm not gonna trawl through the books to correct the ignorance denying this), and there is no evidence that X race waited several thousands years and either made or guided the Valyrians. It's just not supported.

What you're supposed to do, when making wild claims, is provide actual evidence to support yourself, not ask opponents to prove you wrong. This claim hasn't been proven right yet, so why would I waste my time trying to prove it wrong? Especially when I already know it's wrong.

[Musashisamurai]

Then, can you explain the oily-black stones and how they became increasingly more complex over time, and why they are so similar to Valyrian architecture (Dragonstone)?

No, this claim has been supported, with textual evidence. There is the OP; and if you want I can find links to threads that posited the existence of a Proto-Valyrian race.

Your argument has not been supported, apart from making strawmans based on the OP. You just said that you aren't going to even try to prove it wrong-again, you're not arguing here. Your just saying "No"

If you know its wrong and these claims are as wild as you suggest, then I'm sure there is plenty of evidence in the books to support your claims. If not, then I guess your claims aren't that strong. Until then, I'm gonna side with the guy who's taken time to construct a textually-supported and logically-ordered argument, than the guy who just said "No."

[Bryanfury]

Then, can you explain the oily-black stones and how they became increasingly more complex over time, and why they are so similar to Valyrian architecture (Dragonstone)?

No, this claim has been supported, with textual evidence. There is the OP; and if you want I can find links to threads that posited the existence of a Proto-Valyrian race.

Your argument has not been supported, apart from making strawmans based on the OP. You just said that you aren't going to even try to prove it wrong-again, you're not arguing here. Your just saying "No"

If you know its wrong and these claims are as wild as you suggest, then I'm sure there is plenty of evidence in the books to support your claims. If not, then I guess your claims aren't that strong. Until then, I'm gonna side with the guy who's taken time to construct a textually-supported and logically-ordered argument, than the guy who just said "No."

My argument has literally been "there is no evidence for your claims". Congratulations on calling that a strawman. :thumbsdown: Believe what you want, you're still wrong.

[J. Stargaryen]

I would think there could be a lot of reasons for the silk having to be from Asshai, for instance a tie to Mel. Or maybe the only place they make scarlet silk on Planetos is Asshai. There's a reason GRRM calls Lannister red crimson, and never scarlet.

Scarlet is a particular shade of red only used in descriptions of two people's clothing in the series and associated books: Mance Rayder, and Brynden Targaryen aka Bloodraven--smoke and scarlet for both. If Mance is descended from Bloodraven, and Mel (who is from Asshai) is either Sheira Seastar or Sheira's daughter by Bloodraven, that's a very good reason to bring Asshai'i silk in to the mix.

This could even play into your theory actually.

Three, actually.

Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. - AGoT, Eddard X

[LmL]

Wow, what a sad little rain cloud.

I'm not sure why people comment on others' theory just to offer non-constructive criticism and scorn. What's the point? If you don't think the theory has any merit, then go talk about a theory you like. I'm not sure why anyone would be so mean to another person on the board, simply for disagreeing about a theory - we are all fans of George R.R. Martin, and mean people suck.

This theory has plenty of interesting evidence worth considering. Even if you don't agree with the ultimate and very admittedly speculative conclusion, some of the ideas developed to get there certainly have merit. Instead of going right to the part you hate, why not talk about the parts you like? And if you don't like any of it... Why comment?

[Bryanfury]

Why comment?

Because it's my right to do so. That's the nature of a discussion board; your ideas will be critiqued, evaluated, and otherwise accepted or rejected. This particular idea actually argues against the text; the text which tells us the Starks ARE First Men, and that the Valyrians developed/evolved/matured/whatever completely separate from the Starks and the North. Who are you to tell me I cannot or should not state this?

[Durran Durrandon]

I am indeed suggesting that the greasy black stone and fused stone COULD be from different people. I would lean towards yes, they are two different peoples, but it could also be a evolution of the same technique, as you said, or, it could be that you can purify the greasy stone with dragon fire. But really, I see them as different. .

I tend to support the idea that the fused stones and the oily stones does represent different technology kits. Specifically, I tend to think Five Forts was intended to keep the kind of things associated with oily stones out.

While I agree with the OP in that I think the Daynes and the the base of the Hightower seem to be evidence of a proto-Valyrian presence in Westeros, I am hesitant about a simple Ashai to Westeros crossing over the Sunset Sea. There is no south pole in evidence on the map leaving the impression that we are looking at the upper portion of a single hemisphere. Crossing from Asshai to Westeros would likeky go as well as sailing from Spain to China. The top scholars of Columbus' time all knew world was round. They also knew based on Greek estimates that it was much bigger than Columbus was contending . However, on Planetos, it is unnecessary anyhow. The southern continent has no land bridge connecting it with Essos and blocking a direct sea route. There is no reason why the people of Asshai or the Empire of the Dawn couldn't simply sail directly to Westeros over the known map.

[Mithras]

Sorry, would you refresh my memory on the men with the bat wings? I haven't completed all of the World Book and this one is escaping me.

If we have Batmen (yes, I went there) that are basically failed Valyrian eugenics experiments and we are looking at a race of proto-Valyrian First First Men as part of this theory, could these have filtered over to become the basis for some of the Riverlord lines (Black Harren and his ilk, Lothston, Whent)? First Men ancestors, black bats, dark blood magic.....

Farther south lie the regions known as the Green Hell, where beasts even more fearsome are said to dwell. There, if the tales are to be trusted, are caverns full of pale white vampire bats who can drain the blood from a man in minutes. Tattooed lizards stalk the jungles, running down their prey and ripping them apart with the long curved claws on their powerful hind legs. Snakes fifty feet long slither through the underbrush, and spotted spiders weave their webs amongst the great trees.

Some say that there were other races here once—forgotten peoples destroyed, devoured, or driven out by the Brindled Men. Tales of lizard men, lost cities, and eyeless cave-dwellers are commonplace. No proof exists for any of these.

Of the lands that lie beyond the Five Forts, we know even less. Legends and lies and traveler’s tales are all that ever reach us of these far places. We hear of cities where the men soar like eagles on leathern wings, of towns made of bones, of a race of bloodless men who dwell between the deep valley called the Dry Deep and the mountains. Whispers reach us of the Grey Waste and its cannibal sands, and of the Shrykes who live there, half-human creatures with green-scaled skin and venomous bites. Are these truly lizard-men, or (more likely) men clad in the skins of lizards? Or are they no more than fables, the grumkins and snarks of the eastern deserts? And even the Shrykes supposedly live in terror of K’dath in the Grey Waste, a city said to be older than time, where unspeakable rites are performed to slake the hunger of mad gods. Does such a city truly exist? If so, what is its nature?

Around Yeen, there are pale white vampire bats living in caverns and eyeless cave-dwellers of unknown nature. In the Grey Waste, we see that there are cities where men supposedly soar like eagles on leathern wings. Note that George used “leathern wings” several times to describe bats. That means these men have vampire bat wings. Yay, batmen. Therefore, the eyeless cave-dwellers in Sothoryos should be some creatures resulting from experiments of interbreeding vampire bats and humans. And the same creatures are found in Grey Waste again. Similarly, Brindled Men result from the experiments of interbreeding brindled wyverns and humans.

I think it makes sense to take the Grey Waste as the biological waste deposal site of whichever pre-Valyrian civilization created them. And Five Forts were built the defend their Realm from these "failed experiments". If we project this to the Wall, does that mean that the Others are the results of some failed or twisted experiments that haunt their masters?

[Mithras]

On the crown of the hill four-and-forty monstrous stone ribs rose from the earth like the trunks of great pale trees. The sight made Aeron’s heart beat faster. Nagga had been the first sea dragon, the mightiest ever to rise from the waves. She fed on krakens and leviathans and drowned whole islands in her wrath, yet the Grey King had slain her and the Drowned God had changed her bones to stone so that men might never cease to wonder at the courage of the first of kings. Nagga’s ribs became the beams and pillars of his longhall, just as her jaws became his throne. For a thousand years and seven he reigned here, Aeron recalled. Here he took his mermaid wife and planned his wars against the Storm God. From here he ruled both stone and salt, wearing robes of woven seaweed and a tall pale crown made from Nagga’s teeth.

But that was in the dawn of days, when mighty men still dwelt on earth and sea. The hall had been warmed by Nagga’s living fire, which the Grey King had made his thrall. On its walls hung tapestries woven from silver seaweed most pleasing to the eyes. The Grey King’s warriors had feasted on the bounty of the sea at a table in the shape of a great starfish, whilst seated upon thrones carved from mother-of-pearl. Gone, all the glory gone. Men were smaller now. Their lives had grown short.

Grey King and his folk seem like superhumanly large men with long lives. That is similar to the Lengii and the mazemakers of Lorath. And note that Grey King was enemy to creatures from the sea.

The mazemakers left no written records, so we shall never know. Their bones tell us that they were massively built and larger than men, though not so large as giants. Some have suggested that mayhaps the mazemakers were born of interbreeding between human men and giant women. We do not known why they disappeared, though Lorathi legend suggests they were destroyed by an enemy from the sea: merlings in some versions of the tale, selkies and walrus-men in others.

I think Grey King and his folk might be mazemakers and they too might have been destroyed by an enemy from the sea. We know that merlings and selkies live in the Sunset Sea because one of the alleged sons of Garth Greenhand was OWEN OAKENSHIELD, who conquered the Shield Islands, driving the selkies and merlings back into the sea.

Still farther east lie the so-called Thousand Islands (Ibbenese chartmakers tell us that there are in truth fewer than three hundred), a sea-girt scatter of bleak windswept rocks believed by some to be the last remnants of a drowned kingdom whose towns and towers were submerged beneath the rising seas many thousands of years ago. Only the boldest or the most desperate mariners ever make landfall here, for the people of these islands, though few in number, are a queer folk, inimical to strangers, a hairless people with green-tinged skin who file the teeth of their females into sharp points and slice the foreskins from the members of their males. They speak no known tongue and are said to sacrifice sailors to their squamous, fish-headed gods, likenesses of whom rise from their stony shores, visible only when the tide recedes. Though surrounded by water on all sides, these islanders fear the sea so much that they will not set foot in the water even under threat of death.

Now this starts making sense. It looks like these merlings/selkies attacked that drowned kingdom and conquered them. The descendants of the people who lived in that drowned kingdom became thralls to them who worship them as gods. The selkies must have been coming and raping their females so long that the poor locals do not look much like humans anymore. They fear the sea like hell.

Coming back to the Iron Islands, the Seastone Chair was carved into the shape of a kraken from an oily black stone, was said to have been found by the First Men when they first came to Old Wyk. And the ironborn worship a deity from the sea. Sounds very similar to the people of the Thousand Islands.

An even more fanciful possibility was put forth a century ago by Maester Theron. Born a bastard on the Iron Islands, Theron noted a certain likeness between the black stone of the ancient fortress and that of the Seastone Chair, the high seat of House Greyjoy of Pyke, whose origins are similarly ancient and mysterious. Theron’s rather inchoate manuscript Strange Stone postulates that both fortress and seat might be the work of a queer, misshapen race of half men sired by creatures of the salt seas upon human women. These Deep Ones, as he names them, are the seed from which our legends of merlings have grown, he argues, whilst their terrible fathers are the truth behind the Drowned God of the ironborn.

I think Maester Theron was the Septon Barth of the Iron Islands. So, my take is that Grey King had a kingdom in the Iron Islands. And the Iron Islands were probably a single, large peninsula connected to the mainland, and thickly forested meaning that weirwood trees could grow. Since the Grey King took a mermaid to his wife (note that merlings/selkies are the enemies from the sea) this happened either after a truce/peace or after the Grey King defeated the sea creatures and claimed a female as his prize.

But eventually, the merlings/selkies strike back. I assume that the Iron Peninsula was hit by a massive Hammer of the Waters and transformed into the current position. As a sign of victory and threat, the Deep Ones left the Seastone Chair. In time, the ironborn more or less started worshipping the Deep Ones.

For a time it seemed as though the steady wash of rain was the only sound in the world. Nimble Dick plowed on, heedless. She watched closely, noting how he bent his back, as if huddling low in the saddle would keep him dry. This time there was no village close at hand when darkness came upon them. Nor were there any trees to give them shelter. They were forced to camp amongst some rocks, fifty yards above the tideline. The rocks at least would keep the wind off. “Best we keep a watch tonight, m’lady,” Crabb told her, as she was struggling to get a driftwood fire lit. “A place like this, there might be squishers.”

“Squishers?” Brienne gave him a suspicious look.

“Monsters,” Nimble Dick said, with relish. “They look like men till you get close, but their heads is too big, and they got scales where a proper man’s got hair. Fish-belly white they are, with webs between their fingers. They’re always damp and fishy-smelling, but behind these blubbery lips they got rows of green teeth sharp as needles. Some say the First Men killed them all, but don’t you believe it. They come by night and steal bad little children, padding along on them webbed feet with a little squish-squish sound. The girls they keep to breed with, but the boys they eat, tearing at them with those sharp green teeth.”

The wood was too damp to light, no matter how many sparks Brienne struck off her flint and steel. The kindling sent up some smoke, but that was all. Disgusted, she settled down with her back to a rock, pulled her cloak over herself, and resigned herself to a cold, wet night. Dreaming of a hot meal, she gnawed on a strip of hard salt beef whilst Nimble Dick talked about the time Ser Clarence Crabb had fought the squisher king.

To rephrase, “Amidst salt and smoke, Nimble Dick talked about the time Ser Clarence Crabb had fought the squisher king.”

“Ser Clarence Crabb, I said. I got his blood in me. He was eight foot tall, and so strong he could uproot pine trees with one hand and chuck them half a mile. No horse could bear his weight, so he rode an aurochs.”

“What does he have to do with this smugglers’ cove?”

“His wife was a woods witch. Whenever Ser Clarence killed a man, he’d fetch his head back home and his wife would kiss it on the lips and bring it back t’ life. Lords, they were, and wizards, and famous knights and pirates. One was king o’ Duskendale. They gave old Crabb good counsel.”

There is a lot to dig about Ser Clarence Crabb. He probably had a giant mother. His wife was a necromancer. Now, a weirwood tree is growing where he supposedly lived.

“Stay close t’ Dick. The squishers are apt t’ take the laggards.”

That is exactly what Ser Puddles did. Sam and Small Paul and Grenn were laggards. They fell back from the main group and Ser Puddles attacked them.

“He’s no squisher, that’s bloody certain. Their sort don’t ride horses.”

But we do know that the Others ride dead horses.

[LmL]

Really interesting stuff Mithras. I think you're on to something by noticing that so many of these aquatic humanoid peoples seem to fear the sea or have fought against it. It makes sense that the Ironborn would be worshipping the "wrong" deity - they're generally backwards and misguided in many ways. Moqorro tells Victarion he is serving the wrong dude, and Euron seems to have taken up with the Storm God (he's always doing magic to create favorable winds, and a storm was involved in Balon's death). Maybe Euron figured out the Drowned God screwed them over and shouldn't be worshipped.

This idea really explains the 1000 island people and their fear / worship of the sea. Nice job there.

[Lord Martin]

I'm saying no because the theory is X race came from Sunset sea, X race made Starks and X race made Valyrians. The problem is there is no actual evidence that X race, if it exists at all, came from the Sunset Sea, there is no actual evidence that X race turned into the Starks (this is LITERALLY arguing against the established text that the Starks are First Men and I'm not gonna trawl through the books to correct the ignorance denying this), and there is no evidence that X race waited several thousands years and either made or guided the Valyrians. It's just not supported.

What you're supposed to do, when making wild claims, is provide actual evidence to support yourself, not ask opponents to prove you wrong. This claim hasn't been proven right yet, so why would I waste my time trying to prove it wrong? Especially when I already know it's wrong.

Did you read the textual citations in the OPs?

The text explicitly identifies "Race X" as the ancestors of the Valyrians.

These Asshai’i histories say that a people so ancient they had no name first tamed dragons in the Shadow and brought them to Valyria, teaching the Valyrians their arts before departing from the annals.

And there is textual evidence that a race of men landed in Westeros pre-First Men:

A possibility arises for a third race to have inhabited the Seven Kingdoms in the Dawn Age, but it is so speculative that it need only be dealt with briefly.

Among the ironborn, it is said that the first of the First Men to come to the Iron Isles found the famous Seastone Chair on Old Wyk, but that the isles were uninhabited. If true, the nature and origins of the chair’s makers are a mystery. Maester Kirth in his collection of ironborn legends, Songs the Drowned Men Sing, has suggested that the chair was left by visitors from across the Sunset Sea, but there is no evidence for this, only speculation.

So your claim that these two aspects of the theory is not supported by text has been 100% rebutted.

Now, the "theory" part of it is that these two races are the same and that they are the ancestors of Brandon the Builder and their blood runs in House Stark as well.

The remainder of the text largely sets up the parallels that would have passed on to both branches of Race X, thousands and thousands of years later.

And for what its worth, I'm not saying the Starks have no blood of the first men, really its their founder who was not a first man.

[Lord Martin]

Because it's my right to do so. That's the nature of a discussion board; your ideas will be critiqued, evaluated, and otherwise accepted or rejected. This particular idea actually argues against the text; the text which tells us the Starks ARE First Men, and that the Valyrians developed/evolved/matured/whatever completely separate from the Starks and the North. Who are you to tell me I cannot or should not state this?

The text also tells us that Jon Snow is Ned's bastard son... the straight text often contains multiple meanings and the most superficial one is incorrect.

We already know that the so called "First Men" were not the first humans in Westeros thanks to the World Book. . . so I'm really not sure where all these claims of no textual support comes from... there was loads of it in the OPs.

[Lord Martin]

While I agree with the OP in that I think the Daynes and the the base of the Hightower seem to be evidence of a proto-Valyrian presence in Westeros, I am hesitant about a simple Ashai to Westeros crossing over the Sunset Sea. There is no south pole in evidence on the map leaving the impression that we are looking at the upper portion of a single hemisphere. Crossing from Asshai to Westeros would likeky go as well as sailing from Spain to China. The top scholars of Columbus' time all knew world was round. They also knew based on Greek estimates that it was much bigger than Columbus was contending . However, on Planetos, it is unnecessary anyhow. The southern continent has no land bridge connecting it with Essos and blocking a direct sea route. There is no reason why the people of Asshai or the Empire of the Dawn couldn't simply sail directly to Westeros over the known map.

Thats a fair criticism.

We don't know for sure where the nameless race from the Annals of Asshai lived... they could have lived even further east off the known map?

We also don't know where the land ends, so if it ends soon after Asshai, it could have been intrepid explorers, sort of like the Polynesians crossing from Asia to Oceania.

I thought I also recalled a bit in the world book about someone seeking basically, a Northern Passage through the ice which was reminiscent of Henry Hudson... but I couldn't find it... that could have been another manner of crossing, especially if the North wasn't frozen as solid back then...