The Starks Are Not First Men (Spoilers All)

[Lord Martin]

Ah, I'd forgotten that Jon calls it crimson.

I'm actually thinking that Bloodraven would be Mance's grandfather or even great-grandfather. If Bloodraven had a daughter, he technically didn't break his NW vows.

Not sure about the raven. Maybe because the author didn't want to tip anyone off just yet.

P.S. One more minor thing between BR and Mance...Mance's helm has raven wings on it.

I don't know what the mis-memory means... its just interesting... I think I saw some arguments that Jon is letting his anti-Lannister bias get the better of him in ADWD.

Nice find on the helm... I like that... subtle, but cool.

[Frey family reunion]

Are there smaller fonts available?

yes

[Modesty Lannister]

To cut a long story short. There is no conspiracy. You posted a theory that goes against logic and text in some parts. I did my best to point out to that. You refuse to debate it. That is your right, but it gives a certain impression. I hope you will get some input from the posters you respect since you obviously divide posters into different categories.

[James Arryn]

Barely into it and I needed to say this is fucking awesome.

[LmL]

I will get to this long one when i can, but appreciate the input!

That's cool Lord Martin, I wasn't even sure if it was 'proper' to dump so much info on someone else's thread - I almost edited a bunch of it out, but I didn't, figuring that something in there may knock loose a new idea for your theory. You don't have to answer all of that but hopefully some of my similar ideas may help you further develop your own.

I am indeed suggesting that the greasy black stone and fused stone COULD be from different people. I would lean towards yes, they are two different peoples, but it could also be a evolution of the same technique, as you said, or, it could be that you can purify the greasy stone with dragon fire. But really, I see them as different. The Toad and Seastone Chair are lumps of stone carved into a sea god, while Yeen is clearly quarried. I suspect Asshai is quarried also, since we would probably hear about fused stone if it were made that way. Now, if the greasy stone builders of Yeen had the technology to use dragonflame to make fused stone, why in the hell would you go to the trouble of quarrying giant blocks to build a city? That's a great deal more work. And although Battle Isle, which is fused stone, is near the water, the Five Forts are not. Yeen is inland, a bit, but not far from the water at all. I think it's possible that there were two races here, Deep Ones, and ancient Asshai (Great Empire), but they may have overlapped - either working together, or warring against each other.

There is a little blurb about a legend of a pirate King once ruling Battle Isle, I think it's in AFFC in a Sam chapter.

In any case, the fused stone means dragons, unless anyone can suggest a different method to make it (I love Mithras' writings, but have a hard time seeing wildfire being used to make fused stone). The greasy stone may or may not be associated with a dragon-possessing people. It seems more strongly associated with some kind of aquatic deity and people.

The fused stone locations don't have ill health effects, while the greasy stone locations seem to (in relation to the amount of greasy stone present). Seastone Chair doesn't have plant growth near it, and the Ironborn are a bit twisted. The isle of Toads people have "an unpleasant fishlike aspect" to their faces, and we aren't told of plants growing on that isle. Yeen, obviously plants don't grow into the city and people don't do well. Asshai, we all know about.

Finally, the greasy stone is strongly associated with human-animal breeding experiments, while fused stone is usually not.

[barristan-b]

I like looking at the proto-Valyrian idea so great read OP.

I think the tales/myths/history about the Great Empire of the Dawn show that there was a founding culture. It branched off after the Bloodstone guy came along and they started using a material that "came from the sky". Sounds like a meteor shower happened that brought a black magical composite. It was used to the extent of building cities like Asshai and Yeen. I also think this is the same source Dawn was forged from and many of the oily-black stone structures. This culture dispersed throughout the planet and some came to the west coast of Westeros (current Oldtown and the Iron Islands).

Where blood magic lies in all of this has me thinking about a lot of things I can't quite process yet.

But now the Stark proposal is interesting and I'm thinking this pre-historic line may include the Daynes, Iron Born, Blackwoods, and Reeds. So if the Dragonfly Amongst the Reeds theory is true, then these types have all bled into the Targaryan line through Dyanna Dayne, Betha Blackwood, and then potentially Jenny. Then when someone of this is born out of blood, they essentially get a magical boost that can use the magic of oily black stone (Dawn) to defeat the others....or maybe blood sacrificing one of them can help out too. Theon at the tree.

My take is a lot of wild speculation but I enjoy thinking about it. Good OP

[Mithras]

So, it appears that the "blood of the dragon" is literally reptile blood in their veins. Targaryens are known to give birth to misshapen, eyeless, limbless monstrosities occasionally. Dany is the last representative of that tradition. Lizard-men and Shrykes seem to be the by-products of those bloodmagic experiments. The men with bat wings are also the same.

By any name, it was an evil place. The dragonlords sent their worst criminals to the Isle of Tears to live out their lives in hard labor. In the dungeons of Gogossos, torturers devised new torments. In the flesh pits, blood sorcery of the darkest sort was practiced, as beasts were mated to slave women to bring forth twisted half-human children.

The infamy of Gogossos outlived even the Doom. During the Century of Blood, this dark city waxed rich and powerful. Some called her the Tenth Free City , but her wealth was built on slaves and sorcery. Her slave markets became as notorious as those of the old Ghiscari cities on Slaver’s Bay. Seven-and-seventy years after the Doom of Valyria, however , it is said their stink reached even the nostrils of the gods, and a terrible plague emerged from the slave pens of Gogossos. The Red Death swept across the Isle of Tears, then the rest of the Basilisk Isles. Nine men of every ten died screaming, bleeding copiously from every orifice, their skin shredding like wet parchment.

I think dragonlore didnot die out with the Doom instantly. It is obvious that after the Doom, dragons became even more valuable than before. People desperately wanted to recreate dragons in Gogossos because the first one to succeed would likely reclaim the glory of Valyria. But they overstepped and their experiments ran out of control. They created a super plague that wiped them out.

[Lord Martin]

That's cool Lord Martin, I wasn't even sure if it was 'proper' to dump so much info on someone else's thread - I almost edited a bunch of it out, but I didn't, figuring that something in there may knock loose a new idea for your theory. You don't have to answer all of that but hopefully some of my similar ideas may help you further develop your own.

I am indeed suggesting that the greasy black stone and fused stone COULD be from different people. I would lean towards yes, they are two different peoples, but it could also be a evolution of the same technique, as you said, or, it could be that you can purify the greasy stone with dragon fire. But really, I see them as different. The Toad and Seastone Chair are lumps of stone carved into a sea god, while Yeen is clearly quarried. I suspect Asshai is quarried also, since we would probably hear about fused stone if it were made that way. Now, if the greasy stone builders of Yeen had the technology to use dragonflame to make fused stone, why in the hell would you go to the trouble of quarrying giant blocks to build a city? That's a great deal more work. And although Battle Isle, which is fused stone, is near the water, the Five Forts are not. Yeen is inland, a bit, but not far from the water at all. I think it's possible that there were two races here, Deep Ones, and ancient Asshai (Great Empire), but they may have overlapped - either working together, or warring against each other.

There is a little blurb about a legend of a pirate King once ruling Battle Isle, I think it's in AFFC in a Sam chapter.

In any case, the fused stone means dragons, unless anyone can suggest a different method to make it (I love Mithras' writings, but have a hard time seeing wildfire being used to make fused stone). The greasy stone may or may not be associated with a dragon-possessing people. It seems more strongly associated with some kind of aquatic deity and people.

The fused stone locations don't have ill health effects, while the greasy stone locations seem to (in relation to the amount of greasy stone present). Seastone Chair doesn't have plant growth near it, and the Ironborn are a bit twisted. The isle of Toads people have "an unpleasant fishlike aspect" to their faces, and we aren't told of plants growing on that isle. Yeen, obviously plants don't grow into the city and people don't do well. Asshai, we all know about.

Finally, the greasy stone is strongly associated with human-animal breeding experiments, while fused stone is usually not.

Ask the board what is or is not "proper" and you'll get lots of answers. I don't love it when threads get derailed by posters just looking for a place to post their own theories - but as long as its topical I'm okay with it... if a particular issue seems off base, I'll say so and disengage when the time comes.

The idea that the two black stones are unrelated could very well be true... but it really opens up a pandoras box of possibilities to the point where it almost seems useless to come up with theories any more. In fact this was my primary issue with most of the world book, so I tried to seize on the related threads to see if they pointed anywhere.... fully admit there is a chance the evidence should be grouped slightly differently and that it could point to a very different place... but it wasn't in such a way that I could make a coherent theory out of it as I could here.

But the lack of fusing could also be a sign of technological progression. I would think before men learned to shape Toads or Chairs, they learned to shape blocks.. so if Yeen is older than the Toad and Chair, it could work that way. They made blocks and put them together.

But for me the biggest link is that the "no name race" was from the annals of Asshai which is made of greasy black stone are the ones who seemingly taught Dragonlore to Valyrians... but Valyrian Roads and sculptures aren't greasy like Asshai is... so the connection from the "no name race" in Asshai to Valyria is there, but its the oily character that seems to fade over time.

As I recall not all coastal black stones are greasy... the High Tower as you mention, the Mazes of Lorath would be another (hewn but not greasy). So while I'm not prepared to rule out two different stones nor am I prepared to rule out an association with an aquatic race... I don't know that the existence of this race solves many riddles.

The point about blood breeding and oily stones is interesting, I'll have to explore it more....

[Lord Martin]

So, it appears that the "blood of the dragon" is literally reptile blood in their veins. Targaryens are known to give birth to misshapen, eyeless, limbless monstrosities occasionally. Dany is the last representative of that tradition. Lizard-men and Shrykes seem to be the by-products of those bloodmagic experiments. The men with bat wings are also the same.

By any name, it was an evil place. The dragonlords sent their worst criminals to the Isle of Tears to live out their lives in hard labor. In the dungeons of Gogossos, torturers devised new torments. In the flesh pits, blood sorcery of the darkest sort was practiced, as beasts were mated to slave women to bring forth twisted half-human children.

The infamy of Gogossos outlived even the Doom. During the Century of Blood, this dark city waxed rich and powerful. Some called her the Tenth Free City , but her wealth was built on slaves and sorcery. Her slave markets became as notorious as those of the old Ghiscari cities on Slaver’s Bay. Seven-and-seventy years after the Doom of Valyria, however , it is said their stink reached even the nostrils of the gods, and a terrible plague emerged from the slave pens of Gogossos. The Red Death swept across the Isle of Tears, then the rest of the Basilisk Isles. Nine men of every ten died screaming, bleeding copiously from every orifice, their skin shredding like wet parchment.

I think dragonlore didnot die out with the Doom instantly. It is obvious that after the Doom, dragons became even more valuable than before. People desperately wanted to recreate dragons in Gogossos because the first one to succeed would likely reclaim the glory of Valyria. But they overstepped and their experiments ran out of control. They created a super plague that wiped them out.

I think it likely could be... this could explain all the stillbirths, especially since Targs interbreeding could be what is preserving this trend of stillborns... I like the suggestion that the shrikes and lizard men are earlier attempts at blood breeding....

And that makes a ton of sense as to what happened to the "10th Free City." The need to recapture Dragonlore has seemingly plagued the Valryrians we know since the Doom. This is not really all that different from the Targaryen attempts to hatch dragons or even Brightflame's attempt to transform himself. The obsession with Dragonlore is a very good explanation for the disaster at Gogossos. Very nice point!

[Ygrain]

A pretty interesting read, though I will have to re-read in order to absorb all the imformation from TWOIAF that I am unfamiliar with.

There is one thing which might be worth adressing (sorry if I have missed it somehow): similarity between Mel (pale woman with red eyes) and Nightking's consort (pale woman with blue eyes), both in want of seed for some magicking. As if they were from opposite ends of the same power, ice and fire mirror image of each other. In the light of the controlled breeding, one wonders if shadowbabies are the only thing that Mel can create, and what it was that the Other gave birth to.

[LmL]

I tend to agree with Mithras' idea that the shrikes and lizard men and eyeless men are the results of failed dragon / human breeding experiments.

I like the idea that Gorgossos was trying to breed new dragons and ended up creating a plague. That makes sense to me. They were right by the Isle of Toads and the surviving lizard men, so they might have thought they had the knowledge and tools.

I've noticed a piracy connection to the black stones / Deep Ones locations. The Basilisk Isles have been a haunt of pirates forever. The Three sisters were a haven for piracy for thousands of years (they have webbed hands and feet sometimes). Battle Isle has rumors of piracy involved at the beginning. The Ironborn - pirates. The stepstones are a home for pirates... and yes, they are connected to the black stone too. One of the stepstones is named "Bloodstone," which I take as a clue that the "Hammer of the Waters" which broke the arm of Dorne was actually an impact from a chunk of exploded moon. It seems that people with descent from the Deep Ones became natural seafarers... just not very nice ones.

[Lord Martin]

I like looking at the proto-Valyrian idea so great read OP.

I think the tales/myths/history about the Great Empire of the Dawn show that there was a founding culture. It branched off after the Bloodstone guy came along and they started using a material that "came from the sky". Sounds like a meteor shower happened that brought a black magical composite. It was used to the extent of building cities like Asshai and Yeen. I also think this is the same source Dawn was forged from and many of the oily-black stone structures. This culture dispersed throughout the planet and some came to the west coast of Westeros (current Oldtown and the Iron Islands).

Where blood magic lies in all of this has me thinking about a lot of things I can't quite process yet.

But now the Stark proposal is interesting and I'm thinking this pre-historic line may include the Daynes, Iron Born, Blackwoods, and Reeds. So if the Dragonfly Amongst the Reeds theory is true, then these types have all bled into the Targaryan line through Dyanna Dayne, Betha Blackwood, and then potentially Jenny. Then when someone of this is born out of blood, they essentially get a magical boost that can use the magic of oily black stone (Dawn) to defeat the others....or maybe blood sacrificing one of them can help out too. Theon at the tree.

My take is a lot of wild speculation but I enjoy thinking about it. Good OP

I want to explore parts of this at some point too as well as Lucifer's point about the second moon in the Qartheen legend and how it could play into the Bloodstone... hope to get there soon but glad you like it!

[Lord Martin]

A pretty interesting read, though I will have to re-read in order to absorb all the imformation from TWOIAF that I am unfamiliar with.

There is one thing which might be worth adressing (sorry if I have missed it somehow): similarity between Mel (pale woman with red eyes) and Nightking's consort (pale woman with blue eyes), both in want of seed for some magicking. As if they were from opposite ends of the same power, ice and fire mirror image of each other. In the light of the controlled breeding, one wonders if shadowbabies are the only thing that Mel can create, and what it was that the Other gave birth to.

Ygrain! Great to hear from you! (loved your spot on Radio Westeros btw)

This is a really nice connection and parallel from different ends of the family tree. Mel's power is rooted in sacrificial magic of sorts, seed as you note here. She does this to create shadows. Note this from the AGOT prologue:

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took

. . .

Sorry for the font colors... but in our first introduction to the Others they are referred to as "shadows." So the idea of these "shadows" being created through the sacrifice of seed is well supported by the text when combined w/ the tale of Night's King.

This would also be in keeping with "death pays for life."

Modesty Lannister had a nice post about why there are no children in Asshai that touches upon this.

Hope you enjoy the re-read would love to hear from you again.

Cheers!

[LmL]

While you're taking about the Others in the prologue, I'll just pass on something I noticed the other day: the Others are twice referred to as "the watchers" in the chapter. Makes me think about your ideas of the LH = NK. Were the first Nights Watchmen hybrid-Others, or conscious wights like Coldhands? Maybe it wasn't just the Nights King serving on the wall in some sort of undead capacity. When the Last Hero's companions died one by one... Perhaps they didn't stay dead.

As far as the Others reflecting the moonlight and being associated with shadows... It's interesting. The Others can't take sunlight, they are empowered by the cold. That makes sense. But they seem luminescent, as well. Their swords are alive with light, and they reflect the moonlight. So, they are cold, but not totally dark. They are ice that shines. So, what's the opposite of that? Fire that is dark? You mean, like "blackfyre?" Or shadow fire, such as was belched by the stone beast in Dany's vision? Or like the shadows that serve Mel, and thus the red god? There's a dual nature thing happening here. Fire can be dark, and cold can be bright. There's also a bunch of language in the prologue about "nothing burns like the cold." I am mentioning this because it may effect the way you think about the shadows, and the relationship between Others and Fire Wights / Dragons.

[Lord Martin]

While you're taking about the Others in the prologue, I'll just pass on something I noticed the other day: the Others are twice referred to as "the watchers" in the chapter. Makes me think about your ideas of the LH = NK. Were the first Nights Watchmen hybrid-Others, or conscious wights like Coldhands? Maybe it wasn't just the Nights King serving on the wall in some sort of undead capacity. When the Last Hero's companions died one by one... Perhaps they didn't stay dead.

As far as the Others reflecting the moonlight and being associated with shadows... It's interesting. The Others can't take sunlight, they are empowered by the cold. That makes sense. But they seem luminescent, as well. Their swords are alive with light, and they reflect the moonlight. So, they are cold, but not totally dark. They are ice that shines. So, what's the opposite of that? Fire that is dark? You mean, like "blackfyre?" Or shadow fire, such as was belched by the stone beast in Dany's vision? Or like the shadows that serve Mel, and thus the red god? There's a dual nature thing happening here. Fire can be dark, and cold can be bright. There's also a bunch of language in the prologue about "nothing burns like the cold." I am mentioning this because it may effect the way you think about the shadows, and the relationship between Others and Fire Wights / Dragons.

That's a nice catch... I'll have to think about updating the LH-NK thread. I actually think this theory could work quite well with that one... but maybe I'll wait a little longer to see what kind of traction this gets... But you've cetainly got my juices flowing... unfortunately my home PC just died... so I may have some trouble posting tonight, we'll see...

[LmL]

Right on brother, that's what I was hoping to achieve with my slighty all-over-the place commentary, just to give you something you may not have thought of which may connect something for you and help your theory hone in on the truth. George has a very large imagination, and he's interwoven so many things on so many levels, it's really a challenge just to glimpse part of it. The more I see of the picture, the more I can feel my brain stretching and I gain new appreciation for how far George has pushed his creativity. :)

[LmL]

I just wanted to add, by way of agreeing with a large part of your original premise: I do think the Starks should be understood as opposites of the Targaryens / Valyrians. The Starks are Icy people, and I do think you're right to pick up on their seeming resistance to cold. All of their symbolism is so literally cold associated.. their animal is a winter animal, in fact the wolf is often THE symbol of winter in many cultures. Conversely, the dragons are fire made flesh, and the Targaryens are all about fire, almost as much as Beavis. ("Fire, Fire!")

If this symmetry is indeed intended, we can extrapolate. The Targs are 'blood of the dragon,' while Starks have the 'wolf blood.' Dragon bonding and warging. Azor Ahai was a champion of fire, and we are TOLD he was the good guy. The Night's King was a champion of Ice, especially if he was actually honoring some sort of pact with the Others. We are TOLD he is a bad guy, but I think we are all questioning that. Anyway, just wanted to say that I agree with your thinking along these lines, and good job piecing together all the cold-resistance evidence.

[B-rad]

However after marrying into a plethora of families that had blood of the first men and marrying into mountain clans and the story about the wildlings who beaded a female Stark Ygritte told Jon gives a lot of evidence that even if the Starks weren't originally descended from the first men, they still have a lot more blood of the first men then most of the other noble family in Westeros Andy defilty justifys them saying they are descended from the first men

[Xanrn]

tl;dr

[Lord Martin]

However after marrying into a plethora of families that had blood of the first men and marrying into mountain clans and the story about the wildlings who beaded a female Stark Ygritte told Jon gives a lot of evidence that even if the Starks weren't originally descended from the first men, they still have a lot more blood of the first men then most of the other noble family in Westeros Andy defilty justifys them saying they are descended from the first men

I thought about putting this caveat upfront... You are right, the present day Starks are certainly blood of FM...it's the first Stark who wasn't, BTB/LH.