The Starks Are Not First Men (Spoilers All)

[Lord Martin]

I think it makes sense to take the Grey Waste as the biological waste deposal site of whichever pre-Valyrian civilization created them. And Five Forts were built the defend their Realm from these "failed experiments". If we project this to the Wall, does that mean that the Others are the results of some failed or twisted experiments that haunt their masters?

This may be my new favorite theory on the Five Forts.... I didn't love the idea that they were used to battle the Others because of the gaps in the forts and being four sided... the men on top would have to defend all 4 sides rather than a wall with just 1.

[Lord Martin]

Yeah Mithras, great stuff with the Selkies etc.... I think that may have been one of the points Modesty Lannister was trying to make earlier.

So this merling race could explain the Seastone Chair... which would hamper my theory for sure. But the chair is really ornate, carved like a Kraken... where did that technology come from? This is pre-FM and the FM worked with bronze, can't carve stone like that w/ bronze.

And then do you think the Toad Stone is something else as well? Merling or dragon stone?

Could the merlings be some of these genetic experiments who were able to escape because they were sea dwelling? Thrown in the ocean rather than the Grey Waste?

The consistencies through these sailors tales is really enjoyable.... but I am sometimes wary of them...but very interesting bit to consider here.

[Sergian Dayne]

Proto Valyrians where shepherds from the western half of Essos who didn't amount to much until they found dragons. Who taught (if they didn't learn themselves) how to tame Dragons? That may be an interesting question. Maybe the Ashai'i? That's speculative. Is there a race of "others" living in the shadow that would parallel the ones in the north? Still too speculative but far more reasonable than this Valyrian/ Stark link. Are Starks descendants of FM? It all points that way, and since they have been marrying with FM for millennia, any link to other genetics is statistical noise by now. Now, are the Starks and other northmen heavily linked by magic and deep historical events to the Others and other magic creatures? That much is apparent by canon sources.

Now the big mistery is: Who are this others? Pre-Dawn humanoid species native to westeros like cotf? A third race of humans/humanoids descended from the seastone chair makers? (Perhaps once their inhabiting range was once much broader than the far north) , or dawn-age human/humanoid migrants through the sunset sea who brought or learnt magic through contact with cotf (or vicevrsa) well, we can't know at this stage...

[Durran Durrandon]

We don't know for sure where the nameless race from the Annals of Asshai lived... they could have lived even further east off the known map?

We don't, this is fair. We do have text telling us where the Empire of the Dawn was:

"In the beginning, the priestly scribes of Yin declare, all land between the Bones and the freezing desert called the Grey Waste, from the Shivering Sea to the Jade Sea (including even the great and holy isle of Leng), formed a single realm ruled by the God-on-Earth, the only begotten son of the Lion of Night and Maiden-Made-of-Light, who traveled about his domains in a palanquin carved from a single pearl and carried by a hundred queens, his wives. For ten thousand years the Great Empire of the Dawn flourished in peace and plenty under the God-on-Earth, until at last he ascended to the stars to join his forebears."

I have strong suspicions that the Empire of the Dawn is the source of the people who have left us the fused black stone and are the fore bearers of the Valyrians and the Daynes, based on the secription of Five Forts and the gemstone succession of emperors closely matching the line of gemstone eyed rulers in Daenerys' dream. So I don't think there was a proto-Valyrian crossing of the Western Seas.

We also don't know where the land ends, so if it ends soon after Asshai, it could have been intrepid explorers, sort of like the Polynesians crossing from Asia to Oceania.

Now this is all true. If we suppose a second non-proto-Valyrian race as the source of the oily stones. They could come from east of Asshai, at might have crossed the Sunset Sea, they certainly seem to have gone everywhere, actually. There is no reason that those people might not have originated from the other side of the map.

I thought I also recalled a bit in the world book about someone seeking basically, a Northern Passage through the ice which was reminiscent of Henry Hudson... but I couldn't find it... that could have been another manner of crossing, especially if the North wasn't frozen as solid back then...

I remember that as well, but I believe that involved sailing almost directly north. There was the explorer who sailed much of the length of the Shimmering Sea as well, but he never managed to come around to the Western Sea, which would have been a much shorter distance near the pole.

[Mithras]

A vast world empire cannot be governed, not for long, unless one has devices like the glass candles ;)

[Mithras]

This may sound crackpot but check this out:

That was when the golden-haired rogue called Lann the Clever appeared from out of the east. Some say he was an Andal adventurer from across the narrow sea, though this was millennia before the coming of the Andals to Westeros. Regardless of his origins, the tales agree that somehow Lann the Clever winkled the Casterlys out of their Rock and took it for his own.

The precise method by which he accomplished this remains a matter of conjecture. In the most common version of the tale, Lann discovered a secret way inside the Rock, a cleft so narrow that he had to strip off his clothes and coat himself with butter in order to squeeze through. Once inside, however, he began to work his mischief, whispering threats in the ears of sleeping Casterlys, howling from the darkness like a demon, stealing treasures from one brother to plant in the bedchamber of another, rigging sundry snares and deadfalls. By such methods he set the Casterlys at odds with one another and convinced them that the Rock was haunted by some fell creature that would never let them live in peace.

Other tellers prefer other versions of the tale. In one, Lann uses the cleft to fill the Rock with mice, rats, and other vermin, thereby driving out the Casterlys. In another, he smuggles a pride of lions inside, and Lord Casterly and his sons are all devoured, after which Lann claims his lordship’s wife and daughters for himself. The bawdiest of the stories has Lann stealing in night after night to have his way with the Casterly maidens whilst they sleep. In nine months time, these maids all give birth to golden-haired children whilst still insisting they had never had carnal knowledge of a man.

The last tale, ribald as it is, has certain intriguing aspects that might hint at the truth of what occurred. It is Archmaester Perestan’s belief that Lann was a retainer of some sort in service to Lord Casterly (perhaps a household guard), who impregnated his lordship’s daughter (or daughters, though that seems less likely), and persuaded her father to give him the girl’s hand in marriage. If indeed this was what occurred, assuming (as we must) that Lord Casterly had no trueborn sons, then in the natural course of events the Rock would have passed to the daughter, and hence to Lann, upon the father’s death.

About the bolded part, I don’t want to sound pervert but that description looks like a metaphor of vagina and intercourse. In fact, this seems like the general idea in this passage. Lann the Clever impregnated the female Casterlys and his progeny inherited the Rock.

Lann the Clever supposedly lived to the age of 312, and sired a hundred bold sons and a hundred lissome daughters, all fair of face, clean of limb, and blessed with hair “as golden as the sun.” But such tales aside, the histories suggest that the early Lannisters were fertile as well as fair, for many names began to appear in the chronicles, and within a few generations Lann’s descendants had grown so numerous that even Casterly Rock could not contain all of them. Rather than tunnel out new passages in the stone, some sons and daughters from lesser branches of the house left to make their homes in a village a scant mile away. The land was fertile, the sea teemed with fish, and the site they had chosen had an excellent natural harbor. Soon enough the village grew into a town, then a city: Lannisport.

Considering the extreme age of Lann and the extreme fertility of the Lannisters (even today they have the highest rate of producing twins - nearly at every generation), Lann might really have some inhumane origins.

Lann was said to come from the East. Obviously, he cannot come from West because there is no known settlement there, unless he was not a human!

We should ask ourselves the contrast between Westerlands and Iron Islands sections. The Iron Islands section has lots of stories about the inhumane origins of the ironborn, the practice of stealing women, merlings, selkies etc. If there was a race coming and raping women or impregnating them, why did they not come to Westerlands which is very close? I think they did and Lann was one of them.

Brandon the Builder lived for several generations like Lann. Even in TMK, it is said that the Starks and Lannisters do not like each other. We can be pretty sure that the feud between the Starks and Lannisiters did not start with the Sack of KL. Can this antagonism have its origins in the inhumane roots of both Houses? Like Orell's eagle, can the inhumane ancestors of both Houses project their hatred to the members even after so many years? Perhaps that is similar to the feud between the Starks and Boltons which dates back to the Long Night.

Another possibility is that Lann didnot exist as a person and never revealed himself to the humans. Instead, he came at nights secretly and impregnated the female Casterlys in their sleep. Tyrion recalled the rumor that Lann's ghost still haunts the Casterly Rock.

[kimim]

The cool thing about this theory is that it's trying to decipher ancient history as told by medieval people. We now know more about our history thanks to technology. People wander long distances, adapt to their new environments, kill/marry locals, and bring their technology (magic in Westeros) with them. I love the fact that a good deal of humanity has Neanderthal genes. The same thing probably happened in Westeros, but they don't know that; their knowledge is limited to embellished and foggy legends. They don't even know their globe well enough to draw a reliable atlas. It's possible that some Essosi used ships or a land bridge then available to reach Westeros, either from the east or the west. Stuff like that happens in our world, so why not theirs?

Re selkies turning into gods, reminds me of Craster sacrificing his sons to the "old gods," possibly the Others.

[Mithras]

Yeah Mithras, great stuff with the Selkies etc.... I think that may have been one of the points Modesty Lannister was trying to make earlier.

So this merling race could explain the Seastone Chair... which would hamper my theory for sure. But the chair is really ornate, carved like a Kraken... where did that technology come from? This is pre-FM and the FM worked with bronze, can't carve stone like that w/ bronze.

And then do you think the Toad Stone is something else as well? Merling or dragon stone?

Could the merlings be some of these genetic experiments who were able to escape because they were sea dwelling? Thrown in the ocean rather than the Grey Waste?

The consistencies through these sailors tales is really enjoyable.... but I am sometimes wary of them...but very interesting bit to consider here.

I am not sure but the race coming from the sea can also be the Asshai'i that built a world empire. Or perhaps the Asshai'i and the selkies were allies. We know that these elder races made alliances and wars. Perhaps with the help of the selkies and the technology of the Asshai'i, a tour around the world was possible and that is how the Asshai'i reached the Western part of Westeros.

On the Isle of Toads can be found an ancient idol, a greasy black stone crudely carved into the semblance of a gigantic toad of malignant aspect, some forty feet high. The people of this isle are believed by some to be descended from those who carved the Toad Stone, for there is an unpleasant fishlike aspect to their faces, and many have webbed hands and feet. If so, they are the sole surviving remnant of this forgotten race.

Many of the corsairs cling to the gruesome custom of festooning the hulls and masts of their ships with severed heads, to strike fear into their foes. The heads dangle from hempen rope until all the flesh has rotted off them, whereupon they are replaced with fresh ones. Rather than consign the skulls to the sea, however, the corsairs will deliver them to Skull Isle, as an offering to some dark god. Thus it is that great piles of yellowed skulls can be seen lining the shores of this small, windswept, uninhabited rock.

The toad idol does not seem to have nice craftsmanship. That definitely makes it more ancient than the Valyrians. Again we see that the locals were heavily raped by the selkies and their features are distorted, as in the case of the Thousand Islands.

What is interesting is that the corsairs do not feed the skulls to the sea. Note that Ser Clarence Crabb was bringing the heads he lopped off to his wife in their cave. The Blackwoods bury their bones under their great werwood tree. That is like feeding their bones to the trees. The Starks also seem to be feeding their bones to their heart tree because the crypts are very close to the godswood and no doubt the roots of the heart tree can reach the buried bones in the crypts. Also interesting is the custom of constraining the ghosts of dead Starks with iron. Can these undying aspects of Starks be related to their inhuman origins?

[Mithras]

Re selkies turning into gods, reminds me of Craster sacrificing his sons to the "old gods," possibly the Others.

Note that Lovecraft, who is heavily referenced in TWOIAF, didnot produce gods. There are advanced aliens and even more advanced aliens in his universe. Cthulhu is not a god but an alien.

[Durran Durrandon]

So this merling race could explain the Seastone Chair... which would hamper my theory for sure. But the chair is really ornate, carved like a Kraken... where did that technology come from? This is pre-FM and the FM worked with bronze, can't carve stone like that w/ bronze.

I imagine much of the technique in carving the oily black stones is likely to be magic, but it is worth noting that the Maya created some pretty ornate statue without metal tools.

[LmL]

Really interesting ideas here concerning the Deep Ones / aquatic humanoid races. I guess this wasn't a crap thread after all, there's been some great discussion on a variety of speculative, but intriguing topics. One thing I want to throw out in regards to figuring out which forms of construction were more advanced and which techniques came first. There isn't always a linear progression from 'simple' to 'more complex.' Periodically, a civilization suffers a setback, and knowledge is lost. Later generations then try to imitate their ancestors, but without all the knowledge and skill that went in to the original designs. The pyramids of Egypt are much this way - the most magnificent pyramids, the three great pyramids at Giza, are amongst the oldest pyramids, and the Sphinx and Sphinx Temple, which represents the most advanced techniques and the biggest size of granite blocks quarried anywhere in Egypt. Later enervation a tried to imitate these pyramids and failed, sometimes comically so. The point being, the crude looking carvings of the Toad stone and Seastone Chair could have come from aquatic peoples that lived as little as 200 years after the Bloodstone Emperor, who refashioned the remnants of his constructions in the likeness of their own gods. They may well be rejected experiments of human animal breeding by the Bloodstone Emperor, who simply built up an ancient, somewhat crude or primitive culture in the vacuum after his defeat / overthrow etc.

I think the Yi Tish are doing something similar - they aren't direct descendents of the Great Empire of the Dawn - they were probably one tribe or race of people amongst many who rose to power after the collapse of the Great Empire. We are told the GEotD did. OT re-form after the disaster of the Long Night, but that people became insular and distrustful of others, and scattered. The YiTish are simply sitting on the old throne of the GEotD, with many of its trappings. They have the best memory of the GEotD, so they use gemstones and cloth of gold and jade, etc.

Quarth also seems to have memories of the Great Empire, I have noticed upon rereading Dany's chapters from ACOK. Some really interesting stuff there that slipped by me on previous reads.

If you think about it, the very fact that someone seems to have had dragons several thousand years before Valyria, combined with the fact that there was a couple thousand year gap in between kind of tells us that there was a setback, a loss of knowledge. The Valyrians somehow rediscovered some of that skill, and created a new empire that lasted 5,000 years.

[Lord Martin]

This may sound crackpot but check this out:

a cleft so narrow that he had to strip off his clothes and coat himself with butter in order to squeeze through.

About the bolded part, I don’t want to sound pervert but that description looks like a metaphor of vagina and intercourse. In fact, this seems like the general idea in this passage. Lann the Clever impregnated the female Casterlys and his progeny inherited the Rock.

Ha ha, I thought you might be suggesting the Rock was also made of "greasy" black stone... but this was more amusing...

I'm not sure I'd be on board with feuds being passed down genetically. But something is up with Lannister fertility.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

The Starks and the Pact

<snipped for space reasons

I was wondering...isn't it possible that the CotF who were allied with the Warg King were the ones breaking the pact? It doesn't say that ALL CotF were involved in that war. It could have been a splinter faction. The Starks don't have to be the bad guys just because they ended up fighting some CotF. They certainly could be bad guys, but I thought I'd throw that out for consideration. Also, the timeline is a bit muddy on some things, so it's possible that the Warg King was actually before the pact.

Are you thinking that House Dayne is descended from Proto-Valyrians? The quote says no one outside of Valyrians have purple eyes, but we know that's not true because Ashara Dayne did and GRRM has said that House Dayne has no Valyrian ancestry.

I think the blood-magic used in Valyrian breeding programs (for humans) was just to bond them to dragons, and make the bonding stick for generation after generation.

It might also be worth considering that the info about Sothoryi and Ibbenese inter-breeding with Westerosi is baloney meant to discourage people from having inter-racial relationships. *shrug*

Aegon's wives didn't need to use magic to get the results they got. They were the product of generations of incest which tends to produce weak, sickly and/or malformed and possibly insane offspring. It's actually impressive that the Westerosi Targs don't have more genetic problems. Visenya's practicing black magic could be a myth. And it wouldn't be inter-breeding for those three anyway, they're all of the same race.

This is a fun thread!

[Lord Martin]

I was wondering...isn't it possible that the CotF who were allied with the Warg King were the ones breaking the pact? It doesn't say that ALL CotF were involved in that war. It could have been a splinter faction. The Starks don't have to be the bad guys just because they ended up fighting some CotF. They certainly could be bad guys, but I thought I'd throw that out for consideration. Also, the timeline is a bit muddy on some things, so it's possible that the Warg King was actually before the pact.

This is a new theory I just started seeing and its a pretty compelling one. GRRM has us all thinking that the COTF are these zen like creatures of balance who just want to save the trees. It would be a great curve ball to turn some of them into really dark figures. Plus factions exist in societies... it would be a little too easy if the COTF were a united force.

One split in the COTF that could be possible is the red vs. green eyed seers. Why call them greenseers but some have red eyes and some green? And does it make it significant that bloodraven has red eyes? Is that what makes him a seer? (I assume not since Bran's eyes are neither red or green).

And I agree the timeline is muddied up and I'm very open to the Warg King episode being pre-Pact. But the way that would work with my theory is that it wasn't the Starks per say at war with the warg king, but Brandon the Builder's ancestral race. But as the story was retold, it became the Starks because the ancestor race was lost to time, destroyed by or transformed into, the Others.

Are you thinking that House Dayne is descended from Proto-Valyrians? The quote says no one outside of Valyrians have purple eyes, but we know that's not true because Ashara Dayne did and GRRM has said that House Dayne has no Valyrian ancestry.

I waffle on the Daynes. They baffle me to the point where I want to surrender. But I see a few options. They could be related to the ancestral race that crossed the Sunset Sea and built the base of the Hightower... but the Hightowers don't have purple eyes and there doesn't seem to be much closeness between the two. Or the Daynes did cross the arm long before the FM. The falling star story is interesting as it parallels the Blood Stone Emperor but it could also be a metaphor for the sun setting in the west. The sword Dawn adds all sorts of funky wrinkles.

I think the blood-magic used in Valyrian breeding programs (for humans) was just to bond them to dragons, and make the bonding stick for generation after generation.

I bet that was a big use of blood magic... good call. But are you saying this was the only reason? I only ask because of the word "just."

I think it was Tze who had a great post called the Pyre Revisited with some great analysis on blood magic and blood sacrifice helping dany bond to her dragons... apologies if its someone else...

It might also be worth considering that the info about Sothoryi and Ibbenese inter-breeding with Westerosi is baloney meant to discourage people from having inter-racial relationships. *shrug*

I like that. Though some sailors might find the lack of bastards a plus! Speaking of... I should check Euron's list of bastards to see if he was able to breed w/ any races he shouldn't have.

This is sort of like rumors of tribal Amazonian women having incurable venereal diseases (I swear I didn't make that up!)

Aegon's wives didn't need to use magic to get the results they got. They were the product of generations of incest which tends to produce weak, sickly and/or malformed and possibly insane offspring. It's actually impressive that the Westerosi Targs don't have more genetic problems. Visenya's practicing black magic could be a myth. And it wouldn't be inter-breeding for those three anyway, they're all of the same race.

Yes this was a bit of a shout out to other threads I'd seen and was hoping to lure in some Targaryen wonks (which I am not). But my understanding is that some think Aegon was sterile. Rhaeneys was rumored to be with other men and her children were un-Targ looking. Visenya was rumored to practice dark magic but was presumed loyal... and the speculation goes on from there.

I wonder if getting Andal blood and some FM blood in the mix helped stave off some of the worst side effects. And there were still some real doozies... lots of mental illness, many stillbirths with deformities.. it was pretty bad.

I should look into that Targ blood magic to assist with breeding concept... there could be some real hints...

This is a fun thread!

Glad you like it! The World Book is a very poor substitute for TWOW... but we'll work with what we got!

If I were going to elaborate on the Warg King and Stark Ancestors... and this would be purely speculative...

But basically, the Stark ancestors would have dominated the north with their abilities, much like the Valyrians would in Essos many years later. The Warg King and Other tales would be during this time frame. And perhaps there were even early meetings w/ the First Men. The ancestral race may have resorted to whatever dark arts created the Others to help fight the FM, but they themselves fell victim. So begins the Long Night. Brandon the Builder would then have fled, sought the COTF for help and then joined the FM who were now being threatened by the Others. His peoples now gone... he marries into the FM as the founder of House Stark.

Heck, It'd be cool if the FM referred to BTB's ancestors as like "the stark men of the north" or some such and the name stuck....

[DarkstarViserys]

Nonsense. Anyone wh takes anything from twoiaf seriously has not been paying attentin.

[Durran Durrandon]

Are you thinking that House Dayne is descended from Proto-Valyrians? The quote says no one outside of Valyrians have purple eyes, but we know that's not true because Ashara Dayne did and GRRM has said that House Dayne has no Valyrian ancestry.

Saying the Dayne's have no Valyrian ancestors is not the the same as saying the Valyrians and the Daynes don't share common ancestors. The Dayne's have been in Dorne for 8,000 plus years. The Valyrians date back 5000 years, but they both could have descended from a group dating back before 8000 years ago.

[LmL]

Saying the Dayne's have no Valyrian ancestors is not the the same as saying the Valyrians and the Daynes don't share common ancestors. The Dayne's have been in Dorne for 8,000 plus years. The Valyrians date back 5000 years, but they both could have descended from a group dating back before 8000 years ago.

This is really the only logical conclusion.

Plus, the evidence (documented in this very thread and comments) for dragons in ancient, Dawn Age / Age of Heroes Westeros is plentiful.

[Durran Durrandon]

At the very minimum, it looks like the Valyrians are descended from the Empire of the Dawn. I will call these folks the Dawns. I will give my evidence for this below.

The common constructing between Five Forts and the base of the Hightower indicate that the Dawns might have been in Westeros and the Daynes are there ancestors. I don't know if that means that the Starks or Lan the Clever were descended from Dawns, but it opens up the possibility. So in support of the OP, I offer this as support that the Valyrians are descended from the Dawns.

From Daenerys' miscarriage fever dream :

" Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade." GoT 802

From the Yi Ti myth of the Golden Empire of the Dawn:

" The Golden Empire's first ruler was the God-on-Earth, the only son of the Lion of Night and the Maiden-Made-of-Light, who traveled in a palanquin carved from a single pearl and carried by a hundred queens, his wives. He ruled for ten thousand years until he ascended to the stars to join his forebears. Dominion then passed to his eldest son, the Pearl Emperor, who ruled for a thousand years. Power then passed to the Jade Emperor, the Tourmaline Emperor, the Onyx Emperor, the Topaz Emperor, and the Opal Emperor. Each reigning for a shorter and more troubled time than the previous emperor, for wild men and beasts pressed the borders of the Empire, lesser kings grew proud and rebellious, and the common people gave themselves to sin.

When the daughter of the Opal Emperor ascended to power as the Amethyst Empress, her envious brother cast her down and proclaimed himself the Bloodstone Emperor . . ." TWOIAF 712

I think the dream which seems to reference Daenerys' ancestry clearly references back to the Dawns.

[LmL]

You know I agree with all of that Durranx2 ;)

[Crowfood's Daughter]

Yeah Mithras, great stuff with the Selkies etc.... I think that may have been one of the points Modesty Lannister was trying to make earlier.

So this merling race could explain the Seastone Chair... which would hamper my theory for sure. But the chair is really ornate, carved like a Kraken... where did that technology come from? This is pre-FM and the FM worked with bronze, can't carve stone like that w/ bronze.

And then do you think the Toad Stone is something else as well? Merling or dragon stone?

Could the merlings be some of these genetic experiments who were able to escape because they were sea dwelling? Thrown in the ocean rather than the Grey Waste?

The consistencies through these sailors tales is really enjoyable.... but I am sometimes wary of them...but very interesting bit to consider here.Don't

I dont think it is clear if they found a chair or if they found a block of stone and later carved it.

Neither the dancers nor the drinkers took much note of Theon Greyjoy as he strode to the dais. Lord Balon occupied the Seastone Chair, carved in the shape of a great kraken from an immense block of oily black stone. Legend said that the First Men had found it standing on the shore of Old Wyk when they came to the Iron Islands.

(Kindle Locations 19887-19889).