A+J=T v. 3

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Oh don't get me wrong, I support the theory, begrudgingly. I've thought so for a while, before these topics came up.

It's just what it means for Joanna, and I don't like the direction its going.

Tyrion has such strong plot armour which grinds away at me. GRRM is not a great purveyor of anyone can die.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Oh don't get me wrong, I support the theory, begrudgingly. I've thought so for a while, before these topics came up.

It's just what it means for Joanna, and I don't like the direction its going.

Tyrion has such strong plot armour which grinds away at me. GRRM is not a great purveyor of anyone can die.

Joanna is barely even a character in the books -- she is really more a plot device than anything else. GRRM will explain her behavior in whatever way works for the plot line he intends. But she is so undeveloped to this point that I am not sure why any reader really cares how she ends up being described. If GRRM needs her to be the seducer of Aerys -- she will be. If GRRM needs her to be the rape victim of Aerys -- she will be. But the readers really are not expected to be invested in her character because she is long dead and barely even part of the story.

Now plot armor is an issue I find quite interesting. If I am right that Jon, Dany and Tyrion are the three heads of the dragon -- the main "heroes" in the end and the leaders of the Battle for the Dawn 2.0, then in some sense all 3 need to have plot armor because all 3 need to make it to the endgame battle. So they really cannot die. And if every character died quickly in the story, then what is the point? Or if only the characters that never face danger make it the end, then what is the point? To make the story interesting -- and to test the main characters so that they turn into the warriors needed to win the battle in the end -- they need to survive dangerous situations. Jon almost certainly survived in some way or other from being stabbed 4 times. I think that counts as plot armor as well. And Dany has faced situations (for example wandering in the wilderness after the death of Drago) that she should have died from -- but plot armor saved her. Now, in fact, I don't really like the term because I don't see it as plot armor so much as the nature of writing these type of stories, but for convenience I will refer to this common plot element as plot armor.

In this series, some characters who face danger die (Ned and Robb, the best examples), and some will face extreme danger and live. That is the simply the inevitable nature of fantasy/adventure stories. And the characters who are destined to be the endgame heroes need to be the ones to survive. So the only alternative to what you suggest to be "plot armor" is to have more boring story arcs for those characters -- to have the main heroes of the story never really face a situation from which he or she should die. I think the choice of plot armor beats boring every time. And I really think those are the only realistic choices that an author of this type of story has for the characters that he needs to be the ones that make it to the end.

The difference with this series is that at the beginning, the readers cannot really tell who those characters are. The story was written to convince the readers that Ned was that character. He obviously wasn't. But that trick has been used up. At this point it is fairly obvious which characters need to make it to the end for the story to work, so they will continue to face dangerous situations and they will continue to survive (although one or more might die in the course of "saving the world" -- but probably not all 3 -- and only at the end of or near the end of the series). But the Ned situation has left some readers wanting a repeat of that emotional pay-off. But at this stage in the series, it is almost impossible to do again. There are likely no more major characters that look like one of the big "heroes" that GRRM can afford to lose because he needs them for the endgame to work.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Joanna is barely even a character in the books -- she is really more a plot device than anything else. GRRM will explain her behavior in whatever way works for the plot line he intends. But she is so undeveloped to this point that I am not sure why any reader really cares how she ends up being described. If GRRM needs her to be the seducer of Aerys -- she will be. If GRRM needs her to be the rape victim of Aerys -- she will be. But the readers really are not expected to be invested in her character because she is long dead and barely even part of the story.

Now plot armor is an issue I find quite interesting. If I am right that Jon, Dany and Tyrion are the three heads of the dragon -- the main "heroes" in the end and the leaders of the Battle for the Dawn 2.0, then in some sense all 3 need to have plot armor because all 3 need to make it to the endgame battle. So they really cannot die. And if every character died quickly in the story, then what is the point? Or if only the characters that never face danger make it the end, then what is the point? To make the story interesting -- and to test the main characters so that they turn into the warriors needed to win the battle in the end -- they need to survive dangerous situations. Jon almost certainly survived in some way or other from being stabbed 4 times. I think that counts as plot armor as well. And Dany has faced situations (for example wandering in the wilderness after the death of Drago) that she should have died from -- but plot armor saved her. Now, in fact, I don't really like the term because I don't see it as plot armor so much as the nature of writing these type of stories, but for convenience I will refer to this common plot element as plot armor.

In this series, some characters who face danger die (Ned and Robb, the best examples), and some will face extreme danger and live. That is the simply the inevitable nature of fantasy/adventure stories. And the characters who are destined to be the endgame heroes need to be the ones to survive. So the only alternative to what you suggest to be "plot armor" is to have more boring story arcs for those characters -- to have the main heroes of the story never really face a situation from which he or she should die. I think the choice of plot armor beats boring every time. And I really think those are the only realistic choices that an author of this type of story has for the characters that he needs to be the ones that make it to the end.

The difference with this series is that at the beginning, the readers cannot really tell who those characters are. The story was written to convince the readers that Ned was that character. He obviously wasn't. But that trick has been used up. At this point it is fairly obvious which characters need to make it to the end for the story to work, so they will continue to face dangerous situations and they will continue to survive (although one or more might die in the course of "saving the world" -- but probably not all 3 -- and only at the end of or near the end of the series). But the Ned situation has left some readers wanting a repeat of that emotional pay-off. But at this stage in the series, it is almost impossible to do again. There are likely no more major characters that look like one of the big "heroes" that GRRM can afford to lose because he needs them for the endgame to work.

No one cares about Joanna? What? If it turns out she was raped (given Aerys comments to her in world) its probably likely, I'm supposed to be all grin and laugh at it? Seducer of Aerys thats a laugh. Just a plot device is likewise a joke. She's an important part of the characterisation and story. If we aren't expected to be invested in long dead characters why is there going to be books on 300 year old Targaryen kings and why is Nymeria beloved of the masses? Some people are in it for the main story, and thats fine, but the main story does not function without the world. Should we stop caring about Rhaeger and ignroe RLJ?

GRRM treats Tyrion better then other characters. Why else would he give him glorious battles and endless luck. If you want someone to survive till endgame it's a better read to make it less obvious.

GRRM subverted the anyone can die trope with what, Robb and Ned and Oberyn and Drogo. Robert and Viserys were always marked for death, and every second character is resurrected or isn't actually dead (Jaime, Catelyn, Beric, Jon (of course he is going to be), Sandor, Gregor, Brienne, Arya etc...).

Anyway, this is off topic, so I'll end it there for me.

[sandpiper]

continuing from the last thread,

We have no reason to assume that Aerys ever raped Joanna. That's one of several possibilities, but in my opinion one of the more unlikely ones:

Then we have a picture either of Joanna as the schemer, or of genuine feeling between her and Aerys. The mad king might have had reason to be mad, because the woman he loved had married someone else. Very hard to tell, but strikes me there is lots of mileage in this for explaining events at some future point in the books. Another pair of star crossed lovers. Or on a less romantic note, it is not uncommon for kings to take mistresses from amongst their courtiers wives and for royal bastards to be quietly accepted. But in this case Tywin wasnt content to play ball.

Joanna might voluntarily only have had one child for Tywin, which turned out to be twins. If Tyrion was conceived by accident by Aerys from one incident, then Joanna wasnt doing well on the birth control front, and that might suggest she ought to have had more children with Tywin had they been sleeping together. So maybe they werent. Tywin might have been madly in love with Joanna, who was only interested in Aerys. This is a lot of hate for aerys building up to be transferred towards Tyrion.

If we are really going that way, is it guaranteed Jamie and Cersei are Tywins? What is Tywins natural hair colour? (though I think it makes more sense for the story if they are Tywins children)

This whole A+J=T theory is a perfect example of confirmation bias.

In the real world perhaps.But this isnt the real world, and there is always a purpose behind a clue. See one clue for a certain thing and it is way more likely there will be another one coming along. Or put it another way, in the real world things might happen randomly which have no real meaning. In books they dont, though we tend to overlook that because of our real world experience.

[sandpiper]

Ned was essentially a coward when he made Jon his bastard son, choosing Robert over his own family - and possibly - king, whereas Tywin decided to adopt an illegitimate Lannister into the richest family of Westeros as his own son.

I'm not sure about that.The question of when Tywin knew Tyrion was a bastard or whether he was absolutely certain of it, isnt clear. We dont know whether there was doubt. Maybe he was sleeping with Joanna, maybe he wasnt at all. His animosity seems to be right from the start, which suggets he was always pretty sure, but I dont think we know? The choice to simply accept Tyrion was the easy one to make. The hard, arguably courageous or maybe foolhardy one, would have been to start a war about it.

With Ned, again, the choice was either to quietly accept Jon, albeit as a bastard, or to fight a war. And it would have been a pretty big war, because the entire rebellion was over Rhaegar and Lyanna and what happened there. If there was never any abduction, there was never any grounds for rebellion. Ned turning up and saying Robert was in the wrong.....would have been kinda huge. And then what could have happened? Robert declare himself regent for Jon?

Personally, when reading a novel, I try not to focus on my own preferences too much -- it makes it harder to enjoy the books because I am more likely to be disappointed. I prefer to let the author take the story where the author wants to take it and hope it works for me.

Ha, yes. The problem is when authors take as long as this to finish the books you rather have to finish them for yourself and try to work out the ending. Some book series really arent like that, and you can see the author just makes up new stories about the same characters, but this is really one complete story published very slowly in installments. It has created a lot of fun for people chatting like this.

By the way, i liked the burnt bacon bit. Made me laugh, but it could be Martin deliberately making the joke.

The scene where tyrion is in a boat and sees something flying past. My reaction when I read that was wtf? There do not seem to have been many dragon sitings, they seem to be extinct. While this might be one of Daenarys' dragons, even if it is, why is it doing a flypast of Tyrion's ship? Just what attracted it there? It seemed to me another 'affinity to dragons' potential clue. I think Aegon is also aboard, (sorry, only read this once), so it is also a mixed clue regarding whether targaryens might attract the attention of dragons. Natuarally Aegon might so you wouldnt necessarily think Tyrion.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

I think a bigger hints would be that Joanna was also a Lannister, thus being a perfect cover up for Tyrion's parentage. Tywin could have married anyone, but a Marbrand wouldn't have the ability to concieve a chlid that looks like them.
Although if true, it's a dangerous move by Joanna, since there is every chance it looked like Aerys. So perhaps... Joanna would know the risk, so perhaps, it might be intentional? But why? Why risk it, and why do it? Tywin treated 7 year old Jaime and Cersei in any specific way that could instill Joanna to go with Aerys? I do not think so.

Major side eye if it's rape.

[Jô Maltese]

I think a bigger hints would be that Joanna was also a Lannister, thus being a perfect cover up for Tyrion's parentage. Tywin could have married anyone, but a Marbrand wouldn't have the ability to concieve a chlid that looks like them.

Although if true, it's a dangerous move by Joanna, since there is every chance it looked like Aerys. So perhaps... Joanna would know the risk, so perhaps, it might be intentional? But why? Why risk it, and why do it? Tywin treated 7 year old Jaime and Cersei in any specific way that could instill Joanna to go with Aerys? I do not think so.

Major side eye if it's rape.

Again, what if Cersei was her mother's daughter? What would this imply with regards to Joanna's personality? Would Aery's rude comments about her make more sense then? Would Joanna manipulate the men around her? Would she put her children above anything else? Would she make sure that Tywin would not kill Tyrion?

[Consigliere]

As to your specific questions about items 10 and 11, I will give you my best try off the top of my head (remembering that I basically agree that they may not really be valid clues at all):

Burnt bacon -- in the original A+J=T (which I had nothing to do with), this was one of the original clues put forward -- I think even maybe before ADWD ever came out (IIRC). So for some people, I think the thought of Tyrion liking his bacon burnt gave them a connection to dragons because dragons burn things. So it is just a loose connection that an author might introduce merely to get the reader's mind going in a certain direction. It is not meant to imply that Targs have been understood to be more likely to enjoy burnt bacon. It is simply a suggestion that it is being used as a literary device to draw some readers' attention toward Tyrion and a piece of burnt bacon which might look like what some people would imagine something looks like after a dragon has set fire to it. So taken together with the other hints, it just pushes the mind in a certain possible direction that might give a reader an epiphany connecting Tyrion to dragons (not alone, but taken together with all the other dragon references in connection to Tyrion). I acknowledge that will the explicit mentions of Tyrion liking dragons, what is the point? But it perhaps something thought along the lines of "He has such a connection to dragons that he even likes his bacon prepared as if prepared by a dragon."

It is possible that this could be a potential easter egg, or not. In either case, I feel that this point isn't a strong enough piece of evidence to warrant a place in the OP.

Greyscale sickness -- this one is more complicated. Sure Targs get sick and some Targs apparently have died of greyscale. But there has been quite a bit of discussion of whether there is some resistance to illness -- Dany observing that she does not remember being sick. Do we know if Jon has ever been sick? Maybe it is not that Targs in general are immune, but maybe whatever allows Jon, Dany and Tyrion to be the heads of the dragon give them some resistance. Again, maybe it is completely incorrect, but there has been enough discussion of Targs having some illness protection that listing it as something that some people have found persuasive is worth pointing out. I agree, however, that I probably should add some of the additional evidence against this particular theory to make it clear that I am not really relying on it but just reporting what some people in the past have found persuasive.

I don't recall off the top of my head whether Jon has ever been sick but Dany has. He last chapter in Dance makes that clear (diarrhoea, fever). Also, how would Dany even know what a fever is, or felt like, unless she has had one before? This point most definitely does not belong in the OP and is actually detrimental to the theory.

But keep in mind that changing the OP is time consuming for me because I am too O.C. to do it casually. Unlike posts within the thread where I am more loose in my drafting, I edit the OP much more carefully, and thus it takes a lot more time. But you make some useful suggestions and I will try to make time to incorporate them into the OP.

If you require any assistance, feel free to ask me. I realise that this is time consuming but there is no reason we can't put this together as a group. I get the impression that this is going to be a perpetual thread dedicated to the theory. If so, then going forward, I think the OP should just be a summary of the main points in favour of the theory and an FAQ. The OP, as is, is largely excellent and only requires a few minor adjustments. The counter arguments for instance (this ruins the Tywin-Tyrion relationship, the SSM etc) has been addressed on numerous occasions by yourself and others. So it just comes down to the matter of linking to the relevant posts under the FAQ. This would help trim down the length of the OP.

[Lord Varys]

Sandpiper,

the portrait of Aerys Yandel is painting does not really suggest that he ever loved anyone, truly. He was, apparently, not capable of maintaining lasting emotional attachments to women - strangely, though, he was very stalwart with his male childhood friends. But Barristan Selmy supports the notion that Joanna was the woman Aerys may have loved - if he ever loved a woman.

Whatever relationship Joanna and Aerys had it must not have been either 'true love' or manipulation games. It could have been something in-between. Joanna could have liked the feeling of the Prince of Dragonstone/Targaryen king desiring her while also enjoying the power and status she and her family could gain through him. It is easily imaginable that Tywin was nothing but a fifth wheel at the Aerys-Joanna wagon back in the day - or they had some sort of ménàge à trois going on. It simply makes no sense to assume that Tywin did not know anything about Joanna's affair with Aerys while he was still the Prince of Dragonstone. And, as I've suggested elsewhere, naming Tywin Hand of the King could be a suggestion made by Joanna. Tywin and Aerys were friends, but Tywin was the youngest man ever to rise to the Handship, and it may be that Aerys himself did not come up with such a radical idea.

As to later on, a possible motivation for Joanna to seduce and sleep with Aerys in 272 AC could have been to convince him not to accept Tywin's resignation as Hand. The chronology goes like this:

1. Breast comment.

2. Tywin is pissed.

3. Tywin tries to resign on the next day, but Aerys refuses for some reason.

Why would he do that? If we go with a rape/coerced sex scenario in the night, it would be very weird if Aerys would not fire/accept Tywin's resignation. More importantly, if the rape thing was part of Aerys' plan 'to put Tywin back into his place' he would outright tell him what he has done/allow him to find out to show him what sort of power he as king actually has. But he would not want to have this man close to himself or in a position of power afterwards - especially not later on, when his paranoia worsens.

Thus a possible solution is that Tywin told Joanna on the evening of the breast comment that he had enough of Aerys, and would resign on the morrow. Now, if Joanna was the one who wanted Tywin to become Hand in the first place - or if she wanted him to remain in such a position of power at that time - it is easily imaginable that she went to Aerys to convince him to not accept Tywin's resignation after she failed to convince Tywin to not resign.

Tywin's knowledge:

Tywin was not stupid. He would have known about Aerys and Joanna's past, and the first quarrel between Aerys and Tywin during their extended stay in the West following Tytos' death may have to do with the fact that Tywin was, in fact, not willing to allow Joanna and Aerys to continue their intimate relations. If Joanna had sex with Aerys in 272 she must have been with him - and not with Tywin - for some time during the tourney. Considering Tywin's past knowledge about the two we should assume that he kept a close guard on Joanna, and would have realized when she and Aerys were both not in a public place - it would have been especially suspicious if she disappeared in the night.

And even much more suspicious if Joanna simply received a summons into the king's chambers at one point. Tywin would not have known what happened there, but he could put the pieces together after Joanna became pregnant.

Do we know whether Tywin and Joanna had sex during the time of the tourney? No. But if they did not, and if Tyrion was conceived during this time, Tywin would have been sure that he was not the father.

If that's not the case, there is always the possibility of a later death-bed confession. Joanna telling Tywin who Tyrion's father was, and asking him to not harm her child and raise it as their son and a trueborn Lannister. A possible variation of that 'Promise me, Ned...' theme. If Tywin did indeed love Joanna as much as people make us believe he would have done such a thing. For her, and also for the honor of his house.

As to Ned/Jon:

The point in this 'good Tywin and bad Ned' comparison is that Tywin actually adopted Tyrion, a bastard, into his family. He may not have been able to love him, but he gave him pretty much all the honors a younger son of the Lord of Casterly Rock deserved. Tywin saved Tyrion the bad life of being raised as misshapen (royal) bastard.

Ned obviously loved Jon, but he completely cut him off from his own identity and family. Jon Connington and his companions eventually told young Aegon who he actually was, and for what he was prepared for, whereas Ned Stark never found the courage or the decency to tell Jon Snow who he actually was. No one is saying that Ned should plot to make Jon king, but he deserves to know who he is and who his parents were.

But the honorable thing would have been to either allow the KG knights to keep the child - if we assume that Ned was already aware what was going on and who they were guarding in the tower besides Lyanna (if the boy was already born) - or to deliver it to his grandmother and uncle on Dragonstone, rather than making it a Stark bastard. By doing that, Ned Stark actually chose his friend Robert over his own blood. We don't yet know what Ned promised Lyanna, but I'd be surprised if she asked him to keep the boy safe and disguise him as his bastard. Considering Ned's love for Lyanna he would have done that in any case...

Targaryen sickness stuff:

There were many sickly Targaryens - Aenys I, Jaehaerys II, Rhaegel, Aerys I - as well as this host of stillbirths and miscarriages. In fact, if you closely examine Jaehaerys II on the picture in TWoIaF you realize that he was most likely a partial monstrosity, having a misshapen hand. And even the healthier ones - Aegon I, Jaehaerys I, Daeron II, Aegon IV - can die of sickness or natural causes. It may be that fate/magic specifically protects Daenerys - the only one who is supposed to never have been sick - but if that's the case it would have to do with her own specialness rather than a known trait common in many of her forebears.

Dany's sickness in her last chapter seems to be some sort of food poisoning rather than an actual sickness she caught.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Again, what if Cersei was her mother's daughter? What would this imply with regards to Joanna's personality? Would Aery's rude comments about her make more sense then? Would Joanna manipulate the men around her? Would she put her children above anything else? Would she make sure that Tywin would not kill Tyrion?

It'd be a lie to say that we knew her personality well. All we know is that Tywin loved her, and he's not exactly gunna love someone for being merciful etc. You don't always take after your parents, and Cersei is far more Tywin then supposedly Joanna. Perhaps Aerys threatened to have Cersei and Jaime killed unless Joanna raised his child. I think that'd explain a lot. But there is no evidence for this, and after Tyrions birth it would seem otherwise. However this is after Tyrions birth and Joanna's death, so perhaps its a thing.

[Jô Maltese]

It'd be a lie to say that we knew her personality well. All we know is that Tywin loved her, and he's not exactly gunna love someone for being merciful etc. You don't always take after your parents, and Cersei is far more Tywin then supposedly Joanna. Perhaps Aerys threatened to have Cersei and Jaime killed unless Joanna raised his child. I think that'd explain a lot. But there is no evidence for this, and after Tyrions birth it would seem otherwise. However this is after Tyrions birth and Joanna's death, so perhaps its a thing.

I have never said we knew Joanna's personality well, I am saying on the contrary that we do not know anything about her personality - therefore all possibilities are open, including Joanna not being a very nice person. Where I disagree with you is on Cersei taking after Tywin. No, as auntie Gemma Lannister said, only Tyrion takes after Tywin (I am going against A+J = T here despite my belief T is a half Targ :bang: ), neither Jaime (although he has definitely some of his ruthlessness - think of his actions in the Riverlands) nor Cersei (too stupid and not bigger picture-driven) do IMO. So if Jaime and Cersei are not like their father, I think there is a fair chance that they take after their mother...

[Ramsay's Penguins]

I have never said we knew Joanna's personality well, I am saying on the contrary that we do not know anything about her personality - therefore all possibilities are open, including Joanna not being a very nice person. Where I disagree with you is on Cersei taking after Tywin. No, as auntie Gemma Lannister said, only Tyrion takes after Tywin (I am going against A+J = T here despite my belief T is a half Targ :bang: ), neither Jaime (although he has definitely some of his ruthlessness - think of his actions in the Riverlands) nor Cersei (too stupid and not bigger picture-driven) do IMO. So if Jaime and Cersei are not like their father, I think there is a fair chance that they take after their mother...

I was agreeing with you on the first point lol.

Cersei is cruel and yeah ruthless. She's like Tywin in that regard.

Cersei's mother died when she was seven. I don't think she'd take after her to much, and people don't always take after their parents. There is plenty of examples in it in the series.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I have never said we knew Joanna's personality well, I am saying on the contrary that we do not know anything about her personality - therefore all possibilities are open, including Joanna not being a very nice person. Where I disagree with you is on Cersei taking after Tywin. No, as auntie Gemma Lannister said, only Tyrion takes after Tywin (I am going against A+J = T here despite my belief T is a half Targ :bang: ), neither Jaime (although he has definitely some of his ruthlessness - think of his actions in the Riverlands) nor Cersei (too stupid and not bigger picture-driven) do IMO. So if Jaime and Cersei are not like their father, I think there is a fair chance that they take after their mother...

No, I don't think it goes against AJT at all. Just like Jon picked up traits from Ned (honor, for example), even though we will find out Ned it is not the bio-dad, Tyrion likely picked up traits from Tywin (even if not the bio-dad). Tyrion desperately wanted his father's approval. It makes sense that Tyrion would try to emulate Tywin -- biology is not really that big a deal when referring to these type of personality traits. And Tywin's reaction to Gemma is a clue in favor of ATJ.

[Lord Varys]

Come on, guys, Tyrion and Jon being closely related does not destroy anything.

Imagine:

'Well met, bastard uncle.'

Tyrion gave Jon Snow a curt nod in reply. 'Another royal nephew is it, then. Hopefully you don't give me as much trouble as the last one.'

[Jô Maltese]

I was agreeing with you on the first point lol.

Cersei is cruel and yeah ruthless. She's like Tywin in that regard.

Cersei's mother died when she was seven. I don't think she'd take after her to much, and people don't always take after their parents. There is plenty of examples in it in the series.

Oh! :cheers:

I still think children always take some traits after their genetical parents (determinism), but I also think that they polish up their personality through education / experience, be it from their genetical parents or not. We have a few examples of both in the novel : Jon and Ned, Viserys and Aerys, Arya and Lyanna, Arya and Sandor, Sansa and LF, Dany and Rhaegar, Ramsay and Roose, Ned and Jon Arryn... Tyrion and Tywin!

[divine_moose]

I would bet my savings account this is false

If the author wants us to uncover some hidden surprise, it'll be there; e.g. Jun Snew

A lot of your points are straws grasping at straws

[Jô Maltese]

No, I don't think it goes against AJT at all. Just like Jon picked up traits from Ned (honor, for example), even though we will find out Ned it is not the bio-dad, Tyrion likely picked up traits from Tywin (even if not the bio-dad). Tyrion desperately wanted his father's approval. It makes sense that Tyrion would try to emulate Tywin -- biology is not really that big a deal when referring to these type of personality traits. And Tywin's reaction to Gemma is a clue in favor of ATJ.

:cool4: Yes, I was coming to that in the next post!

[Weirdo]

OP a few more that I think belong was when;

Tyrion was talking to Jon in GOT and Jon says "you are the trueborn son of JOanna Lannister" and Tyrion replies, " I wish you would tell my father that as he has never been sure."

And in GOT when TYrion tells Jon that he's basically been dreaming of dragons his whole life.

Then Tyrion mentions that again in DwD when he was with Illyrio. He wakes up to 'dragons fighting in his skull' sure this could be a euphemism for a hangover, but why choose that particular phrase? No one else ever says that, and a lot of people get hangovers in the novels.

I think the fact that Tyrion has always had trouble sleeping, mentions many times that he dreams of dragons, is clearly a trait he shares with Dareon in THK

Targryens are plagued by their dreams, especially since the dragons went extinct, like a piece of them is missing and cannot be returned, Tyrion has also felt this his whole life, but now he is headed right for them.

And of course the scene on the Shy Maid when Tyrion sees the dragon, or whatever it is fly off.

And maybe people dont agree with this, but if you search the word 'dragon' in DwD, Tyrion has the word come up in his chapters almost double to anyone else including Dany.

Then there is this;

Which I think is a reference to that night at the ten year anniversary tourney. Maybe Joanna and Aerys were drunk, but if he did in fact impregnate her that night I think fate/the gods were involved for sure.

Then I mean there are a few other loose hints in DWD, referencing Tyrion to House Targaryen. Take them for what you will :)

Then of course there is this from the sample chapter.

Along with these excellent examples, it would be nice to be able to refute the counter argument which was presented many times: that it means nothing for a Westerosi boy to dream of dragons, because they probably all do; the comparison was made several times to Earth children dreaming of becoming an astronaut.

My problem with this counter is that it's not supported in the text, to my recollection - what other boy dreams of dragons at all? Bran sees one in a green dream, I believe, but that's not the same as aspirational dreaming: Bran specifically wanted to be a knight, it is mentioned several times. Arya, not a shy girl at all, is so frightened of the dragon skulls under the Red Keep that she sees them as 'monsters' instead of dragons. It doesn't mean that kids in Westeros don't dream of dragons, but it's significant if George never mentions it, and I don't recall him doing so.

The problem is proving the negative with the search tools I have. I use Kindle and it's not possible to search for two terms in proximity (re 'dream' and 'dragon'). It would be a real slog to go through five books searching on 'dream' and looking for dragon dreams (it might choke the search engine, in fact). Does anyone have a reader that provides more in-depth search tools?

For that matter, does anyone recall another character in the novels mentioning that they dream of dragons all the time, other than Tyrion, Dany, and Jon?

[Jô Maltese]

Along with these excellent examples, it would be nice to be able to refute the counter argument which was presented many times: that it means nothing for a Westerosi boy to dream of dragons, because they probably all do; the comparison was made several times to Earth children dreaming of becoming an astronaut.

My problem with this counter is that it's not supported in the text, to my recollection - what other boy dreams of dragons at all? Bran sees one in a green dream, I believe, but that's not the same as aspirational dreaming: Bran specifically wanted to be a knight, it is mentioned several times. Arya, not a shy girl at all, is so frightened of the dragon skulls under the Red Keep that she sees them as 'monsters' instead of dragons. It doesn't mean that kids in Westeros don't dream of dragons, but it's significant if George never mentions it, and I don't recall him doing so.

The problem is proving the negative with the search tools I have. I use Kindle and it's not possible to search for two terms in proximity (re 'dream' and 'dragon'). It would be a real slog to go through five books searching on 'dream' and looking for dragon dreams (it might choke the search engine, in fact). Does anyone have a reader that provides more in-depth search tools?

For that matter, does anyone recall another character in the novels mentioning that they dream of dragons all the time, other than Tyrion, Dany, and Jon?

Shireen

[Mychel_Redfort]

Along with these excellent examples, it would be nice to be able to refute the counter argument which was presented many times: that it means nothing for a Westerosi boy to dream of dragons, because they probably all do; the comparison was made several times to Earth children dreaming of becoming an astronaut.

That's true. But I believe in the theory that several hints in the early chapters of AGOT foreshadow events that will happen during the whole saga. And apart of Dany's chapters and Ned and Robert arguing over Rhaegar, when are dragons mentioned in early AGOT ?

""Daeron Targaryen was only fourteen when he conquered Dorne," Jon said. The Young Dragon was one of his heroes." is from Jon I and "Tyrion had a morbid fascination with dragons" is from Tyrion II.