A+J=T v. 3

[UnmaskedLurker]

UL,

you are really doing good work here.

Thanks.

UL,

As we discussed on the secret targs thread I really don't like the idea of Tyrion as the 3rd head and a secret Targ.

But I do see your point and understand your and argument, in fact it has swayed me quite a bit.

I mean Tyrion as a Targ makes a certain amount of sense but I just plain old dislike the idea

I really respect this way of thinking. Of course people have an idea in their heads on how they want the story to unfold. GRRM is bound to disappoint some people. Assuming this theory is correct, you may be right today that you will hate the development and feel that the story would have been stronger if written a different way -- and many people might agree with you and think GRRM made a mistake. You also may find, however, that GRRM pulls it off in a way that you ultimately realize GRRM made the right decision. Just try to keep an open mind

Personally, when reading a novel, I try not to focus on my own preferences too much -- it makes it harder to enjoy the books because I am more likely to be disappointed. I prefer to let the author take the story where the author wants to take it and hope it works for me.

For purposes of this board, however, all I care about is being "right" in the sense of accurately analyzing the clues to figure our where the story is going. It is like being a detective. If the clues tell me that my best friend is the killer -- it does not matter that I don't want my best friend to be the killer -- my job is to find the killer. Here, my job -- well, actually, my hobby -- is to try to figure out where the story is going. Hopefully, I will have done so correctly. I am sure not all of my predictions will turn out to be accurate, but hopefully I will be right more than I am wrong.

[RobOsevens]

Thanks.

I really respect this way of thinking. Of course people have an idea in their heads on how they want the story to unfold. GRRM is bound to disappoint some people. Assuming this theory is correct, you may be right today that you will hate the development and feel that the story would have been stronger if written a different way -- and many people might agree with you and think GRRM made a mistake. You also may find, however, that GRRM pulls it off in a way that you ultimately realize GRRM made the right decision. Just try to keep an open mind

Personally, when reading a novel, I try not to focus on my own preferences too much -- it makes it harder to enjoy the books because I am more likely to be disappointed. I prefer to let the author take the story where the author wants to take it and hope it works for me.

For purposes of this board, however, all I care about is being "right" in the sense of accurately analyzing the clues to figure our where the story is going. It is like being a detective. If the clues tell me that my best friend is the killer -- it does not matter that I don't want my best friend to be the killer -- my job is to find the killer. Here, my job -- well, actually, my hobby -- is to try to figure out where the story is going. Hopefully, I will have done so correctly. I am sure not all of my predictions will turn out to be accurate, but hopefully I will be right more than I am wrong.

Its just so hard when we wait years and years between haha

GRRM has flipped my preconceived notions on their head(s) many times already and its a major part of why I am such a diehard fan and why so much other fiction seems lesser now.

Im sure if Tyrion is a Targ GRRM will do it in such a way that I will be blown away

[Consigliere]

UnmaskedLurker,

Nice job with the OP. I do have two small points of contention/concern.

10. Likes burnt bacon (not technically a clue but possibly a sly wink from the author)

This may or may not be a sly wink from the author. I am of the opinion that this should be removed from the OP. Reason being: Judging from previous discussions, I think that this opens up the theory to ridicule and by extension leads to derailment of the thread without actually adding anything to the theory.

11. Does not get greyscale after swallowing infested water (Dany suggests that Targs might be resistant to illness and Septon Barth wrote “Death comes out of the dragon’s mouth but death does not go in that way” and while Targs can get sick—some died from Spring Sickness—Targs might still have some resistance to illness or perhaps the Spring Sickness had a magical element that other sickness don’t have)

I think that this should be removed as well for the same reasons stated above. Also, from TWOIAF we are told that the Valyrian conquerors died of greyscale and if the speculation is that the spring sickness had a 'magical element' then we have even more reason to believe that greyscale does too.

[UnmaskedLurker]

[snip]

I take your comments and tend to agree with them in principle. The OP is trying, however, to put together all the arguments I have seen across the various threads and let each reader judge for himself or herself -- even arguments I don't necessarily think are particularly good arguments. I can deal with the ridicule -- I try to have a thick skin. I doubt there is anyone who would have been persuaded but is put off of the theory merely because a couple of arguments are not strong or don't seem to really work. I also don't want to open the thread up to constant debate about whether I should remove something from the OP (too much brain damage for me to have to keep reevaluating each argument that way). Again, I would rather put everything I was able to find out there and let each reader make his or her own decision. But I agree with you that those two specific points are not necessarily good ones (although I really like the bacon one just because I find it amusing even if it has nothing to do with being a Targ -- just that some people thought it might is amusing to me).

[Consigliere]

I take your comments and tend to agree with them in principle. The OP is trying, however, to put together all the arguments I have seen across the various threads and let each reader judge for himself or herself -- even arguments I don't necessarily think are particularly good arguments. I can deal with the ridicule -- I try to have a thick skin. I doubt there is anyone who would have been persuaded but is put off of the theory merely because a couple of arguments are not strong or don't seem to really work. I also don't want to open the thread up to constant debate about whether I should remove something from the OP (too much brain damage for me to have to keep reevaluating each argument that way). Again, I would rather put everything I was able to find out there and let each reader make his or her own decision. But I agree with you that those two specific points are not necessarily good ones (although I really like the bacon one just because I find it amusing even if it has nothing to do with being a Targ -- just that some people thought it might is amusing to me).

Fair enough.

I still think that those two points specifically warrant a discussion on the pros and cons of having them included. Personally, I don't see those points as adding anything to the theory. Tyrion using the alias Hugor Hill is more amusing to me and a far better hint than him liking bacon burnt black. How is this even a hint? Greyscale is not a hint at all since 1) Valyrian conquerors did die of greyscale, 2) There is actually evidence that greyscale could have a magical origin, yet no such evidence exists for the spring sickness, and 3) Tyrion could very well be infected but not showing any symptoms as yet.

Perhaps other proponents of the theory could weigh in here and we come to a collective agreement. The OP can then be updated if necessary in future versions of this thread.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

OP a few more that I think belong was when;

Tyrion was talking to Jon in GOT and Jon says "you are the trueborn son of JOanna Lannister" and Tyrion replies, " I wish you would tell my father that as he has never been sure."

And in GOT when TYrion tells Jon that he's basically been dreaming of dragons his whole life.

Then Tyrion mentions that again in DwD when he was with Illyrio. He wakes up to 'dragons fighting in his skull' sure this could be a euphemism for a hangover, but why choose that particular phrase? No one else ever says that, and a lot of people get hangovers in the novels.

I think the fact that Tyrion has always had trouble sleeping, mentions many times that he dreams of dragons, is clearly a trait he shares with Dareon in THK

The Hedge Knight--"I dreamed of you," said the prince.
"You said that at the inn."
"Did I? Well it's so. My dreams aren't like yours, Ser Duncan. Mine are true. They frighten me. I dreamed of you and a dead dragon, you see. A great beast, huge, with wings so large they could cover this meadow. It had fallen on top of you, but you were alive and the dragon was dead."
"Did I kill it?"
"That I could not say, but you were there, and so was the dragon. We were the masters of dragons once, we Targaryens. Now they are all gone but we remain........"—Dareon Targaryen and Dunk

Targryens are plagued by their dreams, especially since the dragons went extinct, like a piece of them is missing and cannot be returned, Tyrion has also felt this his whole life, but now he is headed right for them.

(Maester AemonFFC/DwD) "I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one. Sam, we tremble on the cusp of half-remembered prophecies, of wonders and terrors that no man now living could hope to comprehend . . . or . .

“He drained it down, and yawned, and filled it once again. If I drink enough fire wine, he told himself, perhaps I’ll dream of dragons.

When he was still a lonely child in the depths of Casterly Rock, he oft rode dragons through the nights, pretending he was some lost Targaryen Princeling, or a Valyrian dragonlord soaring high o’er fields and mountains. Once when his uncles asked him what gift he wanted for his name day, he begged them for a dragon. “It wouldn’t need to be a big one. It could be little, like I am.” His uncle Gerion thought that was the funniest thing he had ever heard, but his uncle Tygett said, “The last dragon died a century ago, lad.” That had seemed so monstrously unfair that the boy had cried himself to sleep that night.

Yet if the lord of cheese could be believed the Mad King’s daughter had hatched three living dragons. Two more than even a Targaryen should require.”

“Tyrion had drunk himself blind his first night on the Shy Maid. The next day he awoke with dragons fighting in his skull. Griff took one look at him retching over the side of the poleboat, and said, “You are done with drink.”

“Wine helps me sleep,” Tyrion had protested, Wine drowns my dreams, he might have said.”

And of course the scene on the Shy Maid when Tyrion sees the dragon, or whatever it is fly off.

“Too rich, thought Tyrion, Too beautiful. It is never wise to tempt dragons. The drowned city was all around them. A half-seen shape flapped by overhead, pale and leathery wings beating at the fog. The dwarf craned his head around to get a better look, but the thing was gone as suddenly as it had appeared.”

And maybe people dont agree with this, but if you search the word 'dragon' in DwD, Tyrion has the word come up in his chapters almost double to anyone else including Dany.

Then there is this;

“The Mother and the Father made us in their image, Hugor. We should glory in our bodies, for they are the work of the gods,”

“The gods must have been drunk when they got to me.”

Which I think is a reference to that night at the ten year anniversary tourney. Maybe Joanna and Aerys were drunk, but if he did in fact impregnate her that night I think fate/the gods were involved for sure.

Then I mean there are a few other loose hints in DWD, referencing Tyrion to House Targaryen. Take them for what you will :)

“Perhaps you might smuggle me out under your skirts? I’d be so grateful; why, Ill even wed you. I have two wives already, why not three?”

“’You mistake me, I have no wish to die, I promise you. I have…….

‘You have nothing, ‘ finished Magister Illyrio, ‘but we can change that.”

“The clouds in the sky were aglow: pink and purple, maroon and gold, pearl and saffron. One looked like a dragon. Once a man has seen a dragon in flight, let him stay at home and tend his garden in content, someone had written once, for this wide world has no greater wonder. Tyrion scratched at his scar and tried to recall the author’s name. Dragons had been much in his thoughts of late.”

“The dwarf knew he sounded like a westerman, and a highborn westerman at that, so Hugor must needs be some lordling’s by-blow. “

“I dreamed about the queen,” he said. “I was on my knees before her, swearing my allegiance, but she mistook me for my brother, Jaime, and fed me to her dragons.”

“Let us hope this dream was not prophetic.”

“His lord father had not welcomed any reminders of his son’s deformities, and such mummers as featured little folk in their troupes soon learned to stay away from Lannisport and Casterly Rock, at the risk of his displeasure. “

Then of course there is this from the sample chapter.

"The white cyvasse dragon ended up at Tyrion's feet. He scooped it off the carpet and wiped it on his sleeve, but some of the Yunkish blood had collected in the fine grooves of the carving, so the pale wood seemed veined with red. "All hail our beloved queen, Daenerys." Be she alive or be she dead. He tossed the bloody dragon in the air, caught it, grinned. "We have always been the queen's men," announced Brown Ben Plumm. "Rejoining the Yunkai'i was just a plot."(WoW)

[Jô Maltese]

I have been away from the forum for a few days and only realised V2 of the thread was locked when I wanted to start a very long "multiquote' answer. So I will just throw a few thoughts that came to my mind reading the 100 or so posts I had missed.

First, I copy the link to the promotional poster of GoT season 5 that somewhat revived the V2 thread: https://fbcdn-sphoto...417803312_o.jpg (is this ​forecastleshadowing? :cool4: ). As somewhat pointed in another thread, the dragon on the picture is clearly the TV Drogon, here is the proof: https://incantesiman...ones-drogon.png.

A very interesting idea also went unnoticed (sorry, too lazy to find who the poster was): the dragon horn might be woman-magic only (no man can survive blowing it), not sure where it leads but I like this. She ( I think it was a 'she') also said that she did not believe Tyrion's parentage will ever be revealed, and this is also my feeling:

(...) we may never know the truth about Tyrion's true father, because one of the themes I believe GRRM is following is indeed "greatness is achieved by what you do, not by your bloodline" (Davos comes to mind). So, in terms of narrative, GRRM would not need to explicitly tell us the truth about Tyrion (as opposed to R+L=J) to make this point.This kind of unrevealed hidden truth is very much part of his style (refer to D&E stories or tPatQ / tRP or even earlier novellas like the Ice Dragon). After all, Nettle's blurred origins might be but just a foreshadowing of a Tyrion's similar blurred origin when he rides Viserion and therefore becomes a dragonseed for the people, and not a proof against or in favour of "Targ blood = dragon riding possible".

(...) I think that Tyrion will remain a Lannister in the end and not become a Targaryen whoever his father is. His mother is a Lannister and Tywin did give him his name after all, and I also think that Tyrion will not want to leave his mark in History as a Targ but as a Lannister, exactly for the AJT reason: he does not want to be a dwarf in the public's eyes - i.e. a bastard in his father's eyes. Unfortunately for him, losing his dwarf status (by riding a dragon) will give him the bastard taint and this sounds like typical GRRM's irony to me.

As for the somewhat inconsistency of Tywin not going raging after Aerys when he realised A+J (raised by some, Mithras at least), I have often said in other threads that Joanna is Cersei's mother after all and we do not know anything about her apart from her idealised image in Jaime's dreams or that Tywin loved her, but not that Joanna loved him... And that she must have been a stunning beauty. If Cersei takes after her mother, then Joanna was a power and sex-driven woman, a liar, a calculating and manupilative personality... and a mother who would do anything to protect her children. And this would explain why Tywin could never be sure, just like he never processed the truth about Cersei and Jaime until the very end. And my crackpot alternative theory linked to this reasoning is that a 14 years old Rhaegar could have been Joanna's lover (think of Lancel and Cersei) during the coronation anniversary, not Aerys... This, crackpot as it is, would support the strained relationship between Tywin and Aerys perfectly, including Tywin's "passivity" (unlike a wolf blood-Brandon) and Aerys cold vengeance on the Lannisters (to punish Joanna, not Tywin) ; this would also make Tyrion a descendant of Aerys and Rhaella... :eek:

:) I like you.

Well that is good -- because I have considered us to be friends for a while now on these boards. :cheers:

Cute! :love: . More seriously I have to say I concur with Suzie. UnmakedLurker, I agree with most of your posts and I very much like the way you lay out your arguments and how cool and moderate (and sensible) you are in your counters.

And this...

Thx -- I consider synthesizing information and applying it as appropriate to be one of my strengths (I need to have something to offset all of my weaknesses, after all :leer: ).

As to getting pinned -- I doubt it will ever happen because the "cool kids" (think Apple Martini, for example) don't like the theory. I also am just as happy not to get it pinned. I enjoy hanging out in the RLJ thread, but due to it being pinned, it has to some extent become a social hang-out for fans of the theory. I sometimes participate in the frivolity -- so don't get me wrong, I have no real objections to it. But I prefer for this thread to remain more "pure" as a thread that may not be posted to nearly as often, but focuses primarily on the real analysis.

I could not agree more.

[Consigliere]

I'm linking this interview here as I think it has relevance for this theory, particularly if Tyrion tames a dragon without the use of Dragonbinder (depending on what the horn actually does, of course ;))

Unlike the Lannisters, the Targaryens were incestuous for strategic reasons.

The practice of marrying brothers and sisters was common in the Targaryen homeland, Valyria, because the ability to tame dragons is inherited and they wanted to keep it in the family. But even those born with this aptitude didn’t have an easy time of it, as Dany’s own trouble controlling her dragons testifies. At the 92Y, Martin related that his good friend and collaborator, the writer Melinda Snodgrass, owns a Lusitano stallion and practices dressage; her experiences training horses have shaped Martin’s conception of the difficulty of taming dragons.

[Jô Maltese]

UnmaskedLurker,

Nice job with the OP. I do have two small points of contention/concern.

[10. Burnt Bacon] This may or may not be a sly wink from the author. I am of the opinion that this should be removed from the OP. Reason being: Judging from previous discussions, I think that this opens up the theory to ridicule and by extension leads to derailment of the thread without actually adding anything to the theory.

[11. Greyscale immunity] I think that this should be removed as well for the same reasons stated above. Also, from TWOIAF we are told that the Valyrian conquerors died of greyscale and if the speculation is that the spring sickness had a 'magical element' then we have even more reason to believe that greyscale does too.

10. only opens to ridicule if standing alone as a clue. But because it is part of a somewhat consistent sum (see Suzanna Stormborn's post above) of clues linking Tyrion with Dragons, it does add something to the theory. And I find this very tiny and funny fact very "GRRMesque-wink".

11. Valyrians, not Targaryens. And although I am not sure about the Targ immunity, it can't be denied it is implied more than once in the series, so as UL stated more generally in V2, why include Tyrion's dive in the infested water (and Griff's) in the novel if it did not lead to some important outcome? But like Tyrion's parentage, I am not sure this will be ever be cleared: it will just contribute to Tyrion's identity crisis when he rides a dragon and realises he may well be a bastard after all. The alternative answer for his immunity is his dwarfism that may carry the same protecting factors as for children (like Shireen - but she also has Targ blood...)

[Lord Varys]

Oh, this theory is pretty old, too. People have been thinking about that possibility since before the release of ADwD, and possible since before AFfC as well, as many of the subtler clues were in AGoT and it was rather obvious where Tyrion was headed at the end of ASoS.

I, personally, did not mind the thing all that much, especially not before we got any hints regarding Joanna. But it was always fun to speculate about an affair between Joanna and Aerys as we have known since ASoS that Joanna spent some time at court.

With ADwD and TWoIaF the pieces really began falling into place. Right now I think Tyrion being Dany's half-brother is a key plot element since the beginning of the series, possibly an outgrowth of the whole Jon idea. If we look at George's original outline, we have to assume that this 'Tyrion destroys Winterfell and eventually abandons the Lannisters for the Starks' story was clearly abandoned very early on, possibly with the inclusion/development of Theon. And the whole Tyrion-Jon chapters clearly are in there to build up to something. It is clearly no longer a love triangle Tyrion-Arya-Jon, but something else. And we got the whole 'three heads of the dragon' for a reason, too. It is pretty obvious that Tyrion will become a dragonrider. Why not connect him in a more intimate fashion to the other dragon heads?

Incest-born Septa Maegelle Targaryen died of greyscale. The Targaryens are not immune to greyscale or any other sickness. Daeron II, Valarr, Matarys, Aegon III, Jaehaerys II, and possibly Aerys I all died of sickness (Daeron, Valarr, and Matarys of the Great Spring Sickness, Aegon III of consumption, and Jaehaerys II of some unidentified malady).

[UnmaskedLurker]

I'm linking this interview here as I think it has relevance for this theory, particularly if Tyrion tames a dragon without the use of Dragonbinder (depending on what the horn actually does, of course ;))

Great find. I heard a similar statement in a GRRM interview in which he stated that the Targs practiced incest "to better control dragons." I know that there are some frequent posters who believe strongly that Tyrion will ride a dragon but will not be a Targ. While of course GRRM can pull out any twist he wants, he seems to have set out the case fairly overwhelmingly that dragon bonding is tied to some sort of blood magic that the ancient Valeryans performed when they first bonded with dragons, the ability of which was then passed on via family inherited "genes". Are we to believe that the Targs have spent thousands of years thinking they needed to keep the blood pure when dragon bonding had nothing to do with Targ blood? Just as warging and skinchanging is fairly definitively an inherited ability, I will be shocked if it turns out that the ability to bond with a dragon is not also inherited.

[Ser Creighton]

I'm linking this interview here as I think it has relevance for this theory, particularly if Tyrion tames a dragon without the use of Dragonbinder (depending on what the horn actually does, of course ;))

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SOOE1VyhdQk

Here is the live version of the interview and the discussion of the World book if anyone is as lazy as me. Also just ssome gernal insight into his views of the characters and his world. Questions happen after the World book discussion.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Suzanne,

If it was a dragon Tyrion saw (if!), how is that a hint?

Could you also elajorate what hints you see in the last seven quotes in your post?

[Consigliere]

10. only opens to ridicule if standing alone as a clue. But because it is part of a somewhat consistent sum (see Suzanna Stormborn's post above) of clues linking Tyrion with Dragons, it does add something to the theory. And I find this very tiny and funny fact very "GRRMesque-wink".

11. Valyrians, not Targaryens. And although I am not sure about the Targ immunity, it can't be denied it is implied more than once in the series, so as UL stated more generally in V2, why include Tyrion's dive in the infested water (and Griff's) in the novel if it did not lead to some important outcome? But like Tyrion's parentage, I am not sure this will be ever be cleared: it will just contribute to Tyrion's identity crisis when he rides a dragon and realises he may well be a bastard after all. The alternative answer for his immunity is his dwarfism that may carry the same protecting factors as for children (like Shireen - but she also has Targ blood...)

I'm not sure how point #10 can be used as evidence to link Tyrion to dragons. As for point #11, Lord Varys sums it up nicely.

Instead of including all the arguments, the OP should contain only the strongest/best evidence and perhaps an FAQ for this theory, IMO. This will ensure that the OP is kept concise because, as we know, many people are put off by lengthy OPs and this could be a potential barrier to newcomers. The rest of the bits and pieces (the more obscure hints, easter eggs, potential foreshadowing, and parallels) can be discussed/debated in the thread.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I'm not sure how point #10 can be used as evidence to link Tyrion to dragons. As for point #11, Lord Varys sums it up nicely.

Instead of including all the arguments, the OP should contain only the strongest/best evidence and perhaps an FAQ for this theory, IMO. This will ensure that the OP is kept concise because, as we know, many people are put off by lengthy OPs and this could be a potential barrier to newcomers. The rest of the bits and pieces (the more obscure hints, easter eggs, potential foreshadowing, and parallels) can be discussed/debated in the thread.

I think you make an interesting suggestion -- namely that I should put together an "executive summary" in which I allow people who want to read a condensed version of the OP with just the strongest arguments outlined succinctly (and maybe the main arguments against as well) that would make the OP more accessible to people who don't have the patience for the entire post. That way I don't lose any of the theories that people over time have put forward while making it clear which arguments I find most compelling and boiling them down to quick easy bites.

As to your specific questions about items 10 and 11, I will give you my best try off the top of my head (remembering that I basically agree that they may not really be valid clues at all):

Burnt bacon -- in the original A+J=T (which I had nothing to do with), this was one of the original clues put forward -- I think even maybe before ADWD ever came out (IIRC). So for some people, I think the thought of Tyrion liking his bacon burnt gave them a connection to dragons because dragons burn things. So it is just a loose connection that an author might introduce merely to get the reader's mind going in a certain direction. It is not meant to imply that Targs have been understood to be more likely to enjoy burnt bacon. It is simply a suggestion that it is being used as a literary device to draw some readers' attention toward Tyrion and a piece of burnt bacon which might look like what some people would imagine something looks like after a dragon has set fire to it. So taken together with the other hints, it just pushes the mind in a certain possible direction that might give a reader an epiphany connecting Tyrion to dragons (not alone, but taken together with all the other dragon references in connection to Tyrion). I acknowledge that will the explicit mentions of Tyrion liking dragons, what is the point? But it perhaps something thought along the lines of "He has such a connection to dragons that he even likes his bacon prepared as if prepared by a dragon."

Greyscale sickness -- this one is more complicated. Sure Targs get sick and some Targs apparently have died of greyscale. But there has been quite a bit of discussion of whether there is some resistance to illness -- Dany observing that she does not remember being sick. Do we know if Jon has ever been sick? Maybe it is not that Targs in general are immune, but maybe whatever allows Jon, Dany and Tyrion to be the heads of the dragon give them some resistance. Again, maybe it is completely incorrect, but there has been enough discussion of Targs having some illness protection that listing it as something that some people have found persuasive is worth pointing out. I agree, however, that I probably should add some of the additional evidence against this particular theory to make it clear that I am not really relying on it but just reporting what some people in the past have found persuasive.

But keep in mind that changing the OP is time consuming for me because I am too O.C. to do it casually. Unlike posts within the thread where I am more loose in my drafting, I edit the OP much more carefully, and thus it takes a lot more time. But you make some useful suggestions and I will try to make time to incorporate them into the OP.

[Ser Creighton]

Suzanne,

If it was a dragon Tyrion saw (if!), how is that a hint?

Could you also elajorate what hints you see in the last seven quotes in your post?

Can I try to answer? Not that I would speak for Suzy I just want to see if I get it right. Kinda like a guessing game.

So number 1.

Reference about having two wives. Aegon had two wives and the Targs were known to practice polygamy.

Number 2.

Not sure

Number 3.

This one is pretty intresting. Tyrion is looking at the clouds, and there are a lot of colors the last two being Saffron and Pearl. Saffaron is yellow gold and pearl is a white cream. Followed by one looked like a dragon and Dragons had been on his mind. So foreshadowing, imagery, and possibly allusion.

ETA: Of note the colors are plain spoken at first Purple, Pink, Red, but it seems he tries to disguise white or off white with pearl, and gold with Saffron. There is probably something to that. Pearl is a pale tint off white that is how it is described. Pale wings? Dragon wings are described as bat like.

Number 4.

A by-blow is a reference to an illegitimate child.

Number 5.

Possible prophetic which are associated with Targs. The dream is also intresting in the Shireen has a similar dream and both are associated with Greyscale. Shireen has Targaryen blood.

Number 6. Not sure it could be an association with mummers which is associated with Aegon and later mentioned by Moqorro, I think I don't remember his exact words.

Number 7.

As on the boat there is a reference to Pale wings, we see what may be a reference to the White dragon in the clouds, then the white cyvasse dragon. Now some thing the blood indicates Viserion will be injured, and that is possible. I often read it myself as an allusion to blood of the dragon.

2 of them I am not that sure about, but 5 of them seem pretty sound as she is only considering them loose references. I didn't find 5 of them hard to pick up on at all, and it was the first time I read them. Mumers, White and gold dragons, dragons blood, illigitamate child, prophetic dreams that is almost identical to Shireens in symbolism, in fact as a bastard Tyrions sysmbolism would be closer to Orys Baratheon. Well that's all I got, just wanted to take a shot at it.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

No doubt this undermines Tyrions and Tywins relationship but look at how much Maggy's prophecy undermined Cersei's character.

Grrm couldn't help but make Tyrion better and better. It's his favourite character, so of course he's going to be a secret Targ, no matter how stupid it seems.

[Lord Varys]

If Tyrion is Aerys' son, then he has been designed as such since before AGoT came out. The best hints - especially the the outspoken speculation whether Tyrion is actually Lord Tywin's seed - comes from that volume.

Tyrion did not develop into George's favorite character. He was his favorite from the beginning. It seems to me that it is very likely that the whole three heads of the dragon thing entered into the story around the same time he decided that Tyrion would be Dany's brother and ride one of her dragons.

[addicted to snow]

I support the Theory... In fact, I believe that Tywin is Sterile & that all 3 of his 'children' are the offspring of A & J...

[UnmaskedLurker]

No doubt this undermines Tyrions and Tywins relationship but look at how much Maggy's prophecy undermined Cersei's character.

Grrm couldn't help but make Tyrion better and better. It's his favourite character, so of course he's going to be a secret Targ, no matter how stupid it seems.

I agree 100% with LV's response to this post but I also would like to elaborate a little on what LV posted. It is not just that GRRM decided to make Tyrion a Targ bastard before he published GoT, and it is not only that Tyrion was GRRM's favorite character from the point that GRRM initially imagined the character (although those points certainly are true), GRRM knew where he was taking Tyrion when he was writing the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion. It is not like he writes this complex relationship not knowing that Tyrion was going to be revealed as son of Aerys later, and then down the road GRRM decides to make Tyrion a secret Targ. If this theory is true, it definitely was planned that way from the beginning and every aspect of the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion was written with this fact in mind. So what you really are asking of GRRM is to undo his plans to satisfy your desire to imagine the relationship between T&T one way when GRRM always intended it to be another way. Or are people arguing that if GRRM had this plan all along he would never have written the relationship between T&T the way he did? If that is the case, then how should GRRM have written the relationship different so that the later reveal of Tyrion as a Targ does not "undermine" the T&T relationship?

But as I have written over and over and over again -- the basic sentiment makes no sense to me because Tywin is dead (and for other reasons as well). The relationship was what it was and cannot be altered now. You might have an emotional desire to see Tywin and Tyrion bound as biological father and son because in your mind it makes the conflict more dramatic -- but if Tyrion is a Targ bastard, he is a Targ bastard because GRRM needs Tyrion to be for other plot development purposes and it does not change what happened between Tywin and Tyrion when it happened. I also suspect that the revelation allows Tyrion's character to move in a new direction rather than stuck in the emotional place he is at end of DwD. I just keep hearing this argument about undermining the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion, and I struggle to get it. I mean, I get it on one level (it just strikes many people as "wrong" to give Tywin or Tyrion any sort of excuse for their behavior toward each other). But on a deeper level, I struggle to understand why people think preserving this image of father/son struggle which is basically done in the books (given Tywin's death) is more important than whatever GRRM has planned for Tyrion as one of the three heads of the dragon.