A+J=T v. 3

[Lord Varys]

Tyrion seems to believe other unloved children would also dream to be a dragonlord. But that does not really need to be the case.

In fact, Arya never thinks it would be a great thing to have a dragon, nor does Sansa - in her predicament in KL - or Bran. Nor does any other POV remember he or she wanted to be a dragonrider as a child.

Tyrion clearly never made the connection that he could, in fact, be Aerys' son. Tywin may have, after he learned about Tyrion's dragon dreams/fascination with them, but Tyrion does seem to consider his dragon dreams as essentially nothing special despite the fact that his knowledge should make him suspicious about them. But then, perhaps this is actually the case, and he'll actively try to mount a dragon because he has deduced that he is Aerys' son.

[howardh51]

Here is why I think this analysis is misguided. Most important -- Tywin is dead. If the point was to make Tywin crazy with rage over the children he loved being Targs and Tyrion being the only true-born, then the reveal needs to happen while Tywin lives. Rather anti-climactic to reveal this information later when there really is no fall-out from the revelation (other than some level of irony in the minds of the readers). There just is not much of a pay-off in the end.

On the other hand, a reveal regarding Tyrion serves a purpose. It allows him to be one of the heads of the dragon. And the irony, if you are looking for irony, is that the child who was most like Tywin was the child who was not really Tywin's at all -- but who tried his whole life to be like Tywin (nurture over nature). Why do you think Tywin would not speak to his sister for 6 months after she made the comment about Tyrion being most like Tywin? Because Tywin suspected Tyrion was the son of Aerys. If Tyrion really is the son of Tywin, then why be so angry about the comment?

The reveal regarding Tyrion does not undermine the relationship -- it puts a different spin on it -- and it allows Tyrion's story arc to go in a new direction.

Didnt the "reveal" already happen? And quite dramatically at that - with Tywin telling Tyrion - "you are not my son"???? Pretty BIG reveal to me.

[DarkstarViserys]

I am now convinced this is 100 percent true. I just watched season 3 episode 10 and when Tywinn told Tyrion he put family first by letting him live... You would think that bc he is angry that he is a dwarf but that is too petty for a reasonable guy like Tywinn. People like him would still love a crippled child of his.... He is no Bolton. He is angered by Tyrion bc he doubts he is his child due to the joanna aerys. The mad king was a petty guy so he would do what any normal petty guy does in his position. Smash the other guys wife. Simple as that. He was all about humiliating Tywinn. Tywinn still considers Tyrion a Lannister bc of Joanna who he truly loved. It is now clear that Tyrion and John are brothers..... A + L = J... I never believed in the ridiculous and random romance of rhaegar and lyanna. Aerys raped Lyanna after the crowning of the blue rose i believe and Rhaegar may have saved her or consoled her afterwards. That is why Ned does not think of rhaegar in a bad light as he thinks on whether rhaegar would have bastards running around. I dont believe rhaegar married lyanna and I believe the kings guard guarding lyanna is not guarding the princes son but the Kings. Aerys though a total asshole was the king and his child being a guy like john being the opposite is more in line with the story.

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

I am now convinced this is 100 percent true. I just watched season 3 episode 10 and when Tywinn told Tyrion he put family first by letting him live... You would think that bc he is angry that he is a dwarf but that is too petty for a reasonable guy like Tywinn. People like him would still love a crippled child of his.... He is no Bolton. He is angered by Tyrion bc he doubts he is his child due to the joanna aerys. The mad king was a petty guy so he would do what any normal petty guy does in his position. Smash the other guys wife. Simple as that. He was all about humiliating Tywinn. Tywinn still considers Tyrion a Lannister bc of Joanna who he truly loved. It is now clear that Tyrion and John are brothers..... A + L = J... I never believed in the ridiculous and random romance of rhaegar and lyanna. Aerys raped Lyanna after the crowning of the blue rose i believe and Rhaegar may have saved her or consoled her afterwards. That is why Ned does not think of rhaegar in a bad light as he thinks on whether rhaegar would have bastards running around. I dont believe rhaegar married lyanna and I believe the kings guard guarding lyanna is not guarding the princes son but the Kings. Aerys though a total asshole was the king and his child being a guy like john being the opposite is more in line with the story.

LMAO WOW

too funny i am just re-watching Season 3 Episode 1very ironic i came to make this post and i see yours haha

Tyrion is asking Tywin for Casterly Rock and Tywin says that since he can not prove that he is not his son

i never noticed this before is this conversation in the books cause i dont think it is ?

This line wouldnt be in the show if it didnt mean something up until now i have been against this theory just because Tyrion has some black in his hair and Aerys is albino at one point i even considered Aerys had imps rape Joanna

[divine_moose]

This thread is insanity

21 reasons don't make a point valid when they're about burnt bacon or are "He thought about this once, and nobody else ever thought like that, which is a possibility, there might be a chance, but unlikely, GRRM gave us a clue"

George has never been one to make insert grand puzzles - R+L=J is the exception to this rule and cannot be held up as a pass to invent whatever you want. You've extrapolated and invented all kinds of clues and hints, when with Jon they're deliberately open - "He is of my blood"

Interpreting the meaning of a line so it fits your theory (He is no son of mine) isn't valid either - this is VERY CLEARLY pointing to Tywin's disappointment with Tyrion being a dwarf and disgracing the House and killing Joanna

[RumHam]

LMAO WOW

too funny i am just re-watching Season 3 Episode 1very ironic i came to make this post and i see yours haha

Tyrion is asking Tywin for Casterly Rock and Tywin says that since he can not prove that he is not his son

i never noticed this before is this conversation in the books cause i dont think it is ?

Yeah it's in Storm:

“You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men’s laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father’s sigil and his father’s before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse.”

[sandpiper]

George has never been one to make insert grand puzzles

How do we know that? Until we get to read the rest of the books it is very difficult to say how things will end up. We are still only 2/3 the way through. At this point you would not expect solutions. They might start coming in the next book...

Which, come to think is a good question. When the reveal is to be expected?

If there are just two more books, then the next one may well be where the dragon squad really starts to get together. If Tyrion gets into contact with Daenarys and the dragons, then maybe he will get an affinity for them, and there might just be someone comes out of the woodwork who turns out to know something. Tyrion is in the right part of the world to have contact with dragons, whereas Jon is about as far away as he can get. I could imagine Daenarys and Aegon trying to get a dragon squad together and needing a third, whether they realise Tyrion is a Targaryen or not.

We still have four candidates here but three dragons. Do we have a spare? Is someone going to die? Or will one of the four branch out on his (her) own?

Is there a plan for the next book for a 'hunt the dragonrider', where the two Targaryens realise they have to find a third to ride the dragons, but only someone with sufficient blood will do? Then these clues might become a real live issue for the characters and central to the plot.

I think Tyrion is intended to be harder to spot, Jon easier. Jon is an official bastard, with one unknown parent. Tyrion supposedly knows who his parents are. Jon is also making quite a splash by his own efforts and has become lord commander, well on the way to hero. So Martin's plan is the reader wil have figured out Jon and be expecting him to have dealings with dragons (well, we do, dont we, whether he is a targaryen or not?) Then Tyrion is the surprise.

[Magnar of Skagos]

LMAO WOW

too funny i am just re-watching Season 3 Episode 1very ironic i came to make this post and i see yours haha

Tyrion is asking Tywin for Casterly Rock and Tywin says that since he can not prove that he is not his son

i never noticed this before is this conversation in the books cause i dont think it is ?

This line wouldnt be in the show if it didnt mean something up until now i have been against this theory just because Tyrion has some black in his hair and Aerys is albino at one point i even considered Aerys had imps rape Joanna

I'm fairly certain this isn't Tywin admitting that Tyrion isn't his son. It means he wishes Tyrion wasn't his son, even though he is.

[Ser Creighton]

Yeah it's in Storm:

It amazes me that people miss that quote. Cause that is not an obvious clue at all.

Define Irony, Tywin who may have whored around as indicated from the hand that buillt the secret passage to the whore house. Betrays his king, his son kills said king and he sleeps with Tyrions whore. Tyrion the Son of the betrayed king does an exact inverse and Kills Tywin who is sleeping with Shea for all the shit he did to him. Lannister, and Targ, one woman and lots of betrayal. It's like a Soap Opera with swords. Check that, it is like a Soap Opera period.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Didnt the "reveal" already happen? And quite dramatically at that - with Tywin telling Tyrion - "you are not my son"???? Pretty BIG reveal to me.

If GRRM intended that to be the big reveal it was a big fail because most readers have no idea this theory even exists and the majority on this board seem to reject the theory. But I agree that statement certainly is a big clue for those who are open to looking at the evidence objectively.

[divine_moose]

I did look at it objectively - you used "suggests", "perhaps", "could have this been a clue?" frequently. You're detracting from the credibility of your own argument by doing that.

I refute by stating that all of those likely have nothing to do with Tyrion being a secret Targaryen, but have been interpreted in a way that they could suggest it.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Didnt the "reveal" already happen? And quite dramatically at that - with Tywin telling Tyrion - "you are not my son"???? Pretty BIG reveal to me.

Why does that quote get so much attention, while this one is ignored?

The strained silence went on until it was more than Jaime could endure. “Father...” he began.

“You are not my son.” Lord Tywin turned his face away. “You say you are the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and only that. Very well, ser. Go do your duty.”

Tywin says such things to his sons in anger..

Can I try to answer? Not that I would speak for Suzy I just want to see if I get it right. Kinda like a guessing game.

So number 1.

Reference about having two wives. Aegon had two wives and the Targs were known to practice polygamy.

There are wildlings who have multiple wives as well... +'

Number 4.

A by-blow is a reference to an illegitimate child.

Yeah, I know ;) But Tyrion is hiding as a bastard, under a false name. I would not say that's a nod to him possibly being a bastard, but that's just me..

Number 5.

Possible prophetic which are associated with Targs. The dream is also intresting in the Shireen has a similar dream and both are associated with Greyscale. Shireen has Targaryen blood.

Tyrion describes a dream (which doesn't end well for him), and Illyrio says "let's hope it is't prophetic". Shireen has Targaryen blood, and thus potentially has prophetic dreams. Tyrion hasn't had any prophetic dreams...

Number 6. Not sure it could be an association with mummers which is associated with Aegon and later mentioned by Moqorro, I think I don't remember his exact words.

“Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.”

No mummers here..

Number 7.

As on the boat there is a reference to Pale wings, we see what may be a reference to the White dragon in the clouds, then the white cyvasse dragon. Now some thing the blood indicates Viserion will be injured, and that is possible. I often read it myself as an allusion to blood of the dragon.

Every single time when two people play a cyvasse game, and the colour of pieces is mentioned, the player using the black pieces wins, the player using the white pieces loses. The colours each player uses are not always mentioned, but when they are, they are always either black or white, which convinced me that the colours are always important.. Even the colour mentions for cyvasse pieces with Doran and Arianne, while they are not playing a game, are important, and are foreshadowing.

So Tyrion picking up a cyvasse piece, seeing as the colour has been mentioned seems foreshadowing as well. The dragon is the most powerful piece of the game, and this dragon is white. So we have the most powerful piece of the game, and a losing fraction, associated. It is the blood of the Yunkish guy who is killed, that covers the piece, and it is the Yunkish guy who knocks the board over when he falls after being stabbed. Which, imo, would associate Yunkai with the white piece, foreshadowing their loss. The fact that this is a white dragon piece would then suggest that their loss is caused by their most powerfull piece... Losing their most powerful piece, perhaps... And Tyrion being the one to pick up the piece, could then suggest that he is responsible for that loss... Which could very well be the sellswords changing sides (because when one changes sides, the others could easily soon follow), for which Tyrion is responsible, of course..

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Tyrion seems to believe other unloved children would also dream to be a dragonlord. But that does not really need to be the case.

In fact, Arya never thinks it would be a great thing to have a dragon, nor does Sansa - in her predicament in KL - or Bran. Nor does any other POV remember he or she wanted to be a dragonrider as a child.

Are Arya and Sansa unloved then? Or Bran?

Tyrion clearly never made the connection that he could, in fact, be Aerys' son. Tywin may have, after he learned about Tyrion's dragon dreams/fascination with them, but Tyrion does seem to consider his dragon dreams as essentially nothing special despite the fact that his knowledge should make him suspicious about them. But then, perhaps this is actually the case, and he'll actively try to mount a dragon because he has deduced that he is Aerys' son.

Being fascinated with dragons doesn't mean anything? Septon Barth, for example, will have been fascinated with dragons... Why else write a book about them? There were others who wrote entire works on dragons as well... They wouldn't have done so if they didn't care about dragons..

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Well, R+L=J is meant to be revealed, and is thus more obvious. This might not be revealed (who would know his parentage besides Aerys, Joanna and Tywin and maybe Rhaella?). So I think it's just something we're supposed to question.

Darlessa Marbrand, Gerions wife?

[Jô Maltese]

(...)

Every single time when two people play a cyvasse game, and the colour of pieces is mentioned, the player using the black pieces wins, the player using the white pieces loses. The colours each player uses are not always mentioned, but when they are, they are always either black or white, which convinced me that the colours are always important.. Even the colour mentions for cyvasse pieces with Doran and Arianne, while they are not playing a game, are important, and are foreshadowing.

So Tyrion picking up a cyvasse piece, seeing as the colour has been mentioned seems foreshadowing as well. The dragon is the most powerful piece of the game, and this dragon is white. So we have the most powerful piece of the game, and a losing fraction, associated. It is the blood of the Yunkish guy who is killed, that covers the piece, and it is the Yunkish guy who knocks the board over when he falls after being stabbed. Which, imo, would associate Yunkai with the white piece, foreshadowing their loss. The fact that this is a white dragon piece would then suggest that their loss is caused by their most powerfull piece... Losing their most powerful piece, perhaps... And Tyrion being the one to pick up the piece, could then suggest that he is responsible for that loss... Which could very well be the sellswords changing sides (because when one changes sides, the others could easily soon follow), for which Tyrion is responsible, of course..

I love this :bowdown: . But it actually reinforces the idea that Tyrion is the white dragon (as their slave, he is owned by the Yunkai at that time)...

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I love this :bowdown: . But it actually reinforces the idea that Tyrion is the white dragon (as their slave, he is owned by the Yunkai at that time)...

Thank you!

But Tyrion is not Yunkai's most powerful piece...

Nor is he truly Yunkai's property (anymore). He belonged to Yezzan, but Yezzan is dead, and Tyrion is fled.

[Jô Maltese]

Tyrion is not Yunkai's most powerful piece...

Well, I think he was, unbeknownst to them...

EDIT: was

[Ser Creighton]

Why does that quote get so much attention, while this one is ignored?

The strained silence went on until it was more than Jaime could endure. “Father...” he began.

“You are not my son.” Lord Tywin turned his face away. “You say you are the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and only that. Very well, ser. Go do your duty.”

Tywin says such things to his sons in anger..

There are wildlings who have multiple wives as well... +'

Yeah, I know ;) But Tyrion is hiding as a bastard, under a false name. I would not say that's a nod to him possibly being a bastard, but that's just me..

Tyrion describes a dream (which doesn't end well for him), and Illyrio says "let's hope it is't prophetic". Shireen has Targaryen blood, and thus potentially has prophetic dreams. Tyrion hasn't had any prophetic dreams...

“Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.”

No mummers here..

Every single time when two people play a cyvasse game, and the colour of pieces is mentioned, the player using the black pieces wins, the player using the white pieces loses. The colours each player uses are not always mentioned, but when they are, they are always either black or white, which convinced me that the colours are always important.. Even the colour mentions for cyvasse pieces with Doran and Arianne, while they are not playing a game, are important, and are foreshadowing.

So Tyrion picking up a cyvasse piece, seeing as the colour has been mentioned seems foreshadowing as well. The dragon is the most powerful piece of the game, and this dragon is white. So we have the most powerful piece of the game, and a losing fraction, associated. It is the blood of the Yunkish guy who is killed, that covers the piece, and it is the Yunkish guy who knocks the board over when he falls after being stabbed. Which, imo, would associate Yunkai with the white piece, foreshadowing their loss. The fact that this is a white dragon piece would then suggest that their loss is caused by their most powerfull piece... Losing their most powerful piece, perhaps... And Tyrion being the one to pick up the piece, could then suggest that he is responsible for that loss... Which could very well be the sellswords changing sides (because when one changes sides, the others could easily soon follow), for which Tyrion is responsible, of course..

I have to say the Tyrion and the Wildling thing seems like a false comparison he has little to no association with them, and northern practices, he does have association with the Targs though.

By-blow is still a reference in reguards to him. I mean if we are talking about reaching and not reaching, that is a far more direct reference then lets say the KG speech which is used to claim Jon' legitimacy.

Weather the dream ends well for Tyrion is unkown, dreams are more symbolic. Dany has been set ablaze in her dreams. A boy with a wolfs head does not actually have a Wolfs head. Weather it is prophetic or not is unkown, prophetic dreams are seldom if ever literal, the sea comes to Winterfell.

Black and white is more intresting than you might think. Though Tyrion is not playing the game at the time, so he does not lose the game. You don't want black and white fighting lets put it that way. And while you may look at it and go black always wins, it really depends on what phase you are in. Black is currently winning, the long night is coming. Have you looked at the overall use of black and white in the series. Weirwoods are white and red. Same symbolic colors for Ghost and Bloodraven. Red and White and the inverse of Black and Blue just like you see with the Shade of the evening trees which are direct inverse of the Weirwoods.

When you get Black and white in direct oppostion you get war, you get death. That's part of the problem. Black is now, but what happens when change comes? The White raven flies not the black. Black and white is the second phase of three phases. Very first and last chapters of crows are worth a look. When opposed probably not good but lets say you mix those two trees I mentioned, what do you get? Purple leaves and Grey wood. The eyes of the Starks and the Targs.

Now how do you know that dream he had was not prophetic? Or Shireens? You have no first hand account of either? And even if we did it might take some work to undrerstand it. You know your shaking your head saying know about this but really I think you don't want to see. There is some really weak as stuff throne up on R+L=J on a daily basis, and you just nod along. Even Martin did not shoot down the idea but you choose to try and interpret a direct quote from him as none literal. Clues are in the book. You know what he is just teasing?

I don't get it, seems like one of the stronger theories out there. What does having the white piece have to do with him not being a Targ. You said the piece loses? So what Targs have lost before, but that does not change the symbolism of the dragon and the blood. It has nothing to do with it, so why quote it, what do you think he is losing? A fan theory? I don't even understand it as a counter point one has nothing to do with the other.

By the Way connecting Yunkai as Dragons? They are the Harpy the enemy of the dragon? That symbolism is pretty clear in the books and to the world and has been for thousands of years. So saying the Harpy is the dragon would seem beyond reaching. If the white dragon is to triumph who would that dragon be? It's not the Harpy, harpies are not dragons? Not Dany, Dany rides the Winged Shadow. Who just made a deal to have the sell swords flip against the Harpy? Was that Tyrion? Against Yunkai? Pretty sure it was. You got an allusion to the Gold and White dragon in the clouds, pale bat wings on the boat, the white dragon piece. But the White Dragon is Yunkai? So in order to deny Tyrion we are saying the Harpy is now a dragon? Really? Come on, I can understand debating some of the other points, but the Harpy is the white Dragon? I can't and won't that is just to big of a reach for me. Feel free to hold onto that if you like. I can see the theory now, the White Dragon represents the Harpy, no really it does, because it can't be Tyrion it just can't, he's short.

[Black Dragons]

Please this joke the only father that Tyrion have is Tywin, we have all been there wishing that we have different parents but fact is fact Tywin is Tyrion's father.

[Weirdo]

Well, R+L=J is meant to be revealed, and is thus more obvious. This might not be revealed (who would know his parentage besides Aerys, Joanna and Tywin and maybe Rhaella?). So I think it's just something we're supposed to question.

Darlessa Marbrand, Gerions wife?

I suspect Selmy might have some information. Recall how much Jaime knew about Aerys just by having to stand near the throne all the time.