A+J=T v. 3

[Lost Melnibonean]

@R_T While I tend to agree with you, I do recall another white haired dragon riding bastard that wanted Casterly Rock. And he betrayed Rhaenyra, the leader of the blacks...

[Jô Maltese]

Edit - double post

[Jô Maltese]

Or raised by a pride of lions. ;)

Exactly - as Suzanna said a Mowgli...

[UnmaskedLurker]

@UnmaskedLurker,

I ask again, how does getting shot with an arrow make Tywin suddenly "know"? It doesn't. Tywin has doubts, however big or small, but why does that have to mean that "You are no son of mine" is Tywin saying "Aerys fathered you on her"? Why can't it be, for example, Tywin trying to see a truth that won't mean his dwarf son killed him? The man of power, who would not be shamed... shamed by being killed by his very own son, who he had tried to undermine all of his life.

They were Tywin's last words, yes... But look at Ned Starks last words, for example... Do they have any meaning? When taken literally, no. But when you look at the message those words are supposed to bring to the reader.. That the honorable Ned Stark would lie to protect someone dear to him, that's the meaning right there.

Not so strange than, that Tywin's last words can have another meaning than being taken literal... I've already explained, I think in version 2 of this thread (?) what Tywin's doubt would add to the arc...

I thought I answered this question, but I will try again. Two speakers are relevant -- in-story, the speaker is Tywin -- out-of-story, the speaker is GRRM. From Tywin's point of view, I am not suggesting that all of a sudden he knew. I am saying that at some level he always knew, but just did not want to fully admit it to himself. As he realized he was about to die and trying to protect his pride served no more purpose, he finally stated the truth that he always knew but tried to deny at some level to protect himself. Or maybe you are right and from Tywin, it is just one last attempt to insult Tyrion. I suspect the former, but even if the latter, it is not central to my point.

Central to my point is the voice of GRRM. He puts these words in Tywin's mouth. Even if Tywin only means them as a sarcastic insult, GRRM is speaking to the attentive reader. GRRM is saying, notice Tywin's last words -- they are a message to the reader. And then you pointed out that Tyrion does not even remember these as the last words. Another clue -- GRRM is adding misdirection so that inattentive readers don't focus on the real last words. But the attentive readers realize this technique is classic red herring/misdirection, making the last words even more important. So even if you are correct that Tywin still did not know for sure at the time of his death, GRRM knows for sure and is telling readers who are willing to follow the clues.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Central to my point is the voice of GRRM. He puts these words in Tywin's mouth. Even if Tywin only means them as a sarcastic insult, GRRM is speaking to the attentive reader. GRRM is saying, notice Tywin's last words -- they are a message to the reader. And then you pointed out that Tyrion does not even remember these as the last words. Another clue -- GRRM is adding misdirection so that inattentive readers don't focus on the real last words. But the attentive readers realize this technique is classic red herring/misdirection, making the last words even more important. So even if you are correct that Tywin still did not know for sure at the time of his death, GRRM knows for sure and is telling readers who are willing to follow the clues.

Yes I was going to say the exact same thing.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Yes I was going to say the exact same thing.

I would expect nothing else. :cool4:

[UnmaskedLurker]

Thanks to the tremendous work of Consigliere in editing and reformatting the OP--a brand new and improved OP is now topping this thread. Thanks again to Consigliere for the many improvements he made to the OP.

[Jô Maltese]

Consigliere -Brilliant work.

Mods - I think this should definitely be pinned or added on top the "Compendium of theories".

[messem]

I just rewatched S4 E7 Mockingbird. When Oberyn visited Tyrion in the black cells he told the story of their visit to Casterly Rock and what to expect

"A head twice the size of his body, a tail between his legs, claws, one red eye, the privates of both a girl and a boy"

Doesn't that sound like an half dragon?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Thanks to the tremendous work of Consigliere in editing and reformatting the OP--a brand new and improved OP is now topping this thread. Thanks again to Consigliere for the many improvements he made to the OP.

Wow guys! Love the new OP! Nice work :)

I am really proud of all the work we have all done on this theory. I think it is one of the most well put-together groups of evidence on the forum :)

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I was working on our Dany re-read this past week and found a few more strong hints towards AJT, that I wanted to share and see what yall thought :)

From SoS:

Tywin and Tyrion are discussing Tyrion's part in saving KL from Stannis. He felt he has not been rewarded or commended properly by anyone;

" You said something about paying debts I believe?"

"And you want your own reward, is that it? Very well. What is it you would have of me? lands, caste, some office?"

"A little bloody gratitude would make a nice start."

Lord Tywin stared at him, unblinking. "Mummers and monkeys require applause. So did Aerys for that matter. You did as you were commanded, and I am sure it was to the bet of your ability. No one denies the part you played."

--So I would have to ask, why would Tywin jump to the immediate comparison of Tyrion to Aerys? No one was talking about Aerys, he just brought it up at random when thinking about Tyrion. This is one of the only serious conversations Tywin and Tyrion have. A few pages later is when Tyrion asks for CR and Tywin shuts him down, and says "Never."

Is it a coincidence that the first person Tywin compares Tyrion to is the Mad King, when all he is doing is asking for a little gratitude? Is Aerys the only other person Tywin has ever known who appreciated being appreciated? Or who liked for others to recognize his great deeds?

And here is another quote that supports AJT;

Also from SOS;

This is Cersei remembering the conversation she had with Jaime when they were younger, when she is trying to convince him to join the KG, she tells him that Tywin is planning on marrying him to Lysa Tully'

....Old Ser Harlan Grandison had died in his sleep, as was only appropriate for one whose sigil was a sleeping lion. Aerys would want a young man to take his place, so why not a roaring lion in place of a sleepy one?

"Father will never consent," Jaime objected.

"The king won't ask him. And once it's done, Father can't object, not openly. Aerys had Ser Ilyn Payne's tongue torn out just for boasting that it was the Hand who truly ruled the Seven Kingdoms. The Captain of the Hand's guard, and yet father dared not try and stop it! He won't stop this either.".....

The part that struck me as important is the fact that the great Tywin Lannister who fears no one, did not stop IIyn Payne's tongue being cut out by the king, we all know what Ser illyn Payne said to make that happen, but Cersei makes it sound as though Twyin was sort of obligated to protect Ser Illyn, but he does not. This is a major insult to Tywin, openly, and Tywin does nothing. He will drown the Reynes in a cave underground but he refuses to speak against the king about anything, even if the King is in the wrong. All this makes the events at the ten year anniversary tourney make much more sense. No matter what Aerys did to Joanna, talked about her breasts, fondled them, had sex with her, raped her, was in love with her, or whatever actually happened, it would make no difference, Tywin does not and would not say anything against him. He would never tell Aerys to 'Stop', in any circumstance. Same with this quote;

FFC--‘Unbidden, a memory came to her, of the feast King Aerys had thrown when Cersei first came to court, a girl as green as summer grass. Old Merryweather had been nattering about raising the duty on wine when Lord Rykker said, "If we need gold, His grace should sit Lord Tywin on his chamber pot." Aerys and his lickspittles laughed loudly, whilst father stared at Rykker over his wine cup. Long after the merriment had died that gaze had lingered. Rykker turned away, turned back, met Father's eyes, then ignored them, drank a tankard of ale, and stalked off red faced, defeated by a pair of unflinching eyes.’

Tywin is murderous at Rykker, but says and does nothing to Aerys. We see time and time again, that Tywin is absolutely scared of the King, or maybe not 'the king' but the crown in general, he would never want to raise arms or his voice to anyone who sits the IT. While he is perfectly ok with killing anyone else in the 7K for some reason he has great respect for the IT. I think these quotes prove that no matter what Aerys did to Joanna that night at the 10 year party, Tywin was just going to tuck tail and leave the next day without complaining, without killing Joanna, and without killing the possible child that was conceived. If Aerys and Tywin both knew that Tyrion was most likely the son of Aerys, then Tywin can't just kill him, it's the bastard of the king, not someone you can just murder. This is what, IMO, kept Tyrion alive as a child in CR, he was protected by his father who sat the IT due to Tywin clearly being scared/intimidated/whatever of Aerys.

[Jô Maltese]

OP, I think the clues pointing at parallels between Viserion and Tyrion should be added to the pros , some of these below (credit to Mithras and Fire Eater):

The birth of Viserion (the first egg to crack, Tyrion older than Jon and Dany): And something else came crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world, yet dimly through the firefall Dany heard women shriek and children cry out in wonder.

The crossbow: The fool was all that he had time to think as the quarrel caromed off Viserion’s neck to vanish in the gloom. A line of fire gleamed in its wake—dragon’s blood, glowing gold and red. The crossbowman was fumbling for another quarrel as the dragon’s teeth closed around his neck.

Viserion the lazy, the wise (clever): “Wise?” Dany sat cross-legged on a cushion, and Viserion spread his white-and-gold wings and flapped to her side. “We shall see how wise they are,” she said as she scratched the dragon’s scaly head behind the horns. (...) Viserion sensed her disquiet. The white dragon lay coiled around a pear tree, his head resting on his tail. When Dany passed his eyes came open, two pools of molten gold. His horns were gold as well, and the scales that ran down his back from head to tail. “You’re lazy,” she told him, scratching under his jaw. (...)“You should be hunting with your brothers (...)"

Viserion the lustful enslaved: Once, not long ago, he had ridden on her shoulder, his tail coiled round her arm. Once she had fed him morsels of charred meat from her own hand. He had been the first chained up. Daenerys had led him to the pit herself and shut him up inside with several oxen. Once he had gorged himself he grew drowsy. They had chained him whilst he slept. Remind someone's story?

[UnmaskedLurker]

OP, I think the clues pointing at parallels between Viserion and Tyrion should be added to the pros , some of these below (credit to Mithras and Fire Eater):

The birth of Viserion (the first egg to crack, Tyrion older than Jon and Dany): And something else came crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world, yet dimly through the firefall Dany heard women shriek and children cry out in wonder.

The crossbow: The fool was all that he had time to think as the quarrel caromed off Viserion’s neck to vanish in the gloom. A line of fire gleamed in its wake—dragon’s blood, glowing gold and red. The crossbowman was fumbling for another quarrel as the dragon’s teeth closed around his neck.

Viserion the lazy, the wise (clever): “Wise?” Dany sat cross-legged on a cushion, and Viserion spread his white-and-gold wings and flapped to her side. “We shall see how wise they are,” she said as she scratched the dragon’s scaly head behind the horns. (...) Viserion sensed her disquiet. The white dragon lay coiled around a pear tree, his head resting on his tail. When Dany passed his eyes came open, two pools of molten gold. His horns were gold as well, and the scales that ran down his back from head to tail. “You’re lazy,” she told him, scratching under his jaw. (...)“You should be hunting with your brothers (...)"

Viserion the lustful enslaved: Once, not long ago, he had ridden on her shoulder, his tail coiled round her arm. Once she had fed him morsels of charred meat from her own hand. He had been the first chained up. Daenerys had led him to the pit herself and shut him up inside with several oxen. Once he had gorged himself he grew drowsy. They had chained him whilst he slept. Remind someone's story?

JM -- I appreciate the thoughts and think you have a point, but I think this clue is a little more subtle than the clues included in the OP, and I think the OP would double in size if every subtle clue had been included (just look at the many allusions that SS has found but have not been included in the OP -- not because I don't agree that they support the theory (generally, I do), but just to try to limit the OP to more straight forward evidence -- and notice that some of the former less straight forward evidence has been removed from the OP). I appreciate your general support for and thoughts on the theory (which I have noticed you do in other threads as well -- thanks for the link I noticed from you in another thread to this thread).

[Jô Maltese]

Well, I find these Viserion / Tyrion parallels key to the theory because in my thought process these led me to definitely conclude that Tyrion will bound with Viserion, while I find all the others clues very convincing but not conclusive on Tyrion's dragon identity. And it's from this certainty (Tyrion will bound with Viserion) that I can support the legitimacy of a A+J theory for instance: T will ride a dragon, therefore T has got some Targ blood, therefore Tywin is not his father etc. It's the same for the R+L theory, what I actually deduced as dead cert from my first reading was that Ned's promise to Lyanna was the prince that was promised and from there R+L=J followed quite easily. And yes it is subtle, but as the Frey Pie is subtle: once you have spotted the textual hints, it just cannot be taken away.

When rereading your OP after suggesting other posters to check it up, I realised that my base theorem was not listed in it (although IIRC it was mentioned originally) hence my post. Anyway, the thread is yours!

And I thank you for your praise, I personally very much like how you make your points, always rational and never passionate.

[UnmaskedLurker]

And I thank you for your praise, I personally very much like how you make your points, always rational and never passionate.

Maybe I am just passionately rational? :leer:

[Consigliere]

This is why I inculded the "Additional Analysis" section. Links to the posts exploring the Tyrion/Viserion parallels and any other analysis deemed relevant can be included in this section. In this way we can collate all information in favour of the theory while ensuring that the OP does not become bloated.

[UnmaskedLurker]

This is why I inculded the "Additional Analysis" section. Links to the posts exploring the Tyrion/Viserion parallels and any other analysis deemed relevant can be included in this section. In this way we can collate all information in favour of the theory while ensuring that the OP does not become bloated.

Good point, Consigliere.

Jo--If you can point me to a thread that analyzes Tyrion's similarities to Viserion (or want to start one now), I would be happy to add a link to that thread in the Additional Analysis section of the OP.

[Jô Maltese]

Here it is, credit to Mithras (who incidently does NOT support A+J): http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/102076-danys-dragonriders/

[Suzanna Stormborn]

But what do you guys think of the quotes I posted yesterday :dunno:

[UnmaskedLurker]

But what do you guys think of the quotes I posted yesterday :dunno:

I complimented them in post #153. If you want to start an OP in which you gather all of the various quotes throughout the series that imply ATJ in one form or other, I will add it to the Additional Analysis box as well.

Here it is, credit to Mithras (who incidently does NOT support A+J): http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/102076-danys-dragonriders/

I will add a link -- and, yes, I know Mithras/AntZ/PaperWaver has his own peculiar ideas about certain things -- but he also has some useful analysis as well.