The Hierarchy of the Others

[Voice]

This is awesome, and right in line with what I believe. It's not crackpot in the least. Heresy is probably sick of me talking about it.

Psh, faawk them! Nothing but crackpots over there! LOL... kidding of course :D

I know they must get sick of me repeating my mantras as well :)

The effigies of the Kings of Winter have bare swords across their knees to keep the spirits at bay... which is another way of denying Guest Right to "visitors." A very clear symbol reinforced in several chapters.

Completely agree, and have argued the same. They are denying Guest Right. Just like Robb did to Tyrion when the imp returned from the Wall. Snarling direwolf and all.

This might be the only crackpot part, that the Others visit via Gorne's way, which has an entrance in the Winterfell crypts OR near Long Lake. Or both.

Not at all crackpot to me. I think those tunnels were made by Ice Spiders, and that they will soon be using them again ;) mayhaps they will store their frosty-web-covered children in them :devil:

Dinner! Be back in a few folks...

[Voice]

Here's a good question: could George's magical version of milkglass be some kind of opposite to dragonglass? I do absolutely think there's an obsidian element to the red sword, AA's Lightbringer. It would make sense for "Dawn" (original Ice) to have milkglass as a component if so. The ghost grass (also compared to milkglass) grows long and sharp like a sword, much in the way that the dragonglass candles are long and sharp like a sword.

Precisely what I'm thinking. Their armor is said to reflect their surroundings, making it hard to see them. This might also be milkglass, or "ghost glass" and provide us with a very nice and neat contrast with Jon's armor of "black ice" in his dream...

I tend to think the Dothraki "ghost grass" legend is a retelling of the long night. And that rather than being dead/undead (i.e. "ghost") grass, the Dothraki are describing the crystalline, frozen, "dead lands" from Old Nan's stories. This "ghost grass" is rumored to be "taller than a man on horseback." Mayhaps it is men on horseback who have simply been frozen in place... or even better, cocooned and paralyzed by ice spiders :devil:

I hope you'll indulge my quibble here. Catelyn doesn't describe ice as smokey.

"Catelyn had no love for swords, but she could not deny that Ice had its own beauty. It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers. Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North."

In the previouse paragraph, she describes it as being polished to a dark glow. The word dark gets attached to Ice frequently, but smokey is not attached to it in GoT to my knowledge. The Other's sword in the GoT prologue is described as "alive with moonlight" but is not described as milkglass. I just want to make sure we are making these connections with the right information.

I have question. Catelyn tells us that Ice is a 400 year old Valyrian steel sword? When and how do you think it was swapped with the BSE's lightsaber was swapped out with a 400 year old sword.

:cheers: thanks for the clarification.

While the Others' swords are not described as milkglass, their bones are. And the "alive with moonlight" language definitely echoes this substance, as opposed to steel, or dragonglass.

[LmL]

Just to clarify : I wasn't proposing the comet as the source of milkglass. Dawn is either an Others sword, magically hardened ice, which is as you say no problem for the Others, OR, it is made from a meteorite ore, just as the Daynes say it is. In order to suggest that Dawn isn't made from a fallen star, you have to come up with a reason the Daynes are totally confused. They aren't, I don't think - Dawn was made from a meteorite, one containing iron and phosphorus (typical for a comet ore). This still lines up with an explanation of ice, as the core or comets are frozen, and white steel could easily be named ice. .

And although steel can only get to light silver, phosphorus ("light-bringer," "Morningstar") is white. And adding phosphorus to steel DOES make scientific sense - it makes it SHARPER. I am imaging the white color as being the result of phosphorus - a nearly magical element in its own right. Think about the symbolism - phosphorus is NECESSARY for the first chain reactions of life on earth, and scientists think it first arrived via COMET. Dawn, the sword of the morning, brought the Dawn, the spring, and the light - life giving elements. It really fits.

Azor Ahai, the bloodstone Emperor and instigator of the Long Night, bringer of darkness, also made a magic sword, a red fire sword (probably red and black fire like Drogin and Balerion). He worshipped the black stone, and as I posited in my most recent essay, his power base was Asshai, home of sun drinking black stone. So. Neds sword drinks the light - I think that's because it has the sun drinking rock added to it. If obsidian is natural frozen fire, this destroyed moon rock / bloodstone is twisted form of frozen fire. Frozen dark fire.

Some people raise the seemingly valid point,: "but Valyrian steel wasn't around back then" No, but GeoDawnian steel was. They had dragons, and made fused stone structures BEFORE Valyria. They probably made steel too, and probably better. Remember, Azor Ahai forges a steel sword - "hear, hammer, and fold" - so we know there was steel knowledge back in the Dawn Age. He forged iron the "sacred fires," not sure if that's dragon fire or what, but it sounds very hot and magical. So the idea of Neds sword being that of Azor Ahai has no problems whatsoever. It's proto-Valyrian steel. Lightbringer was a magic sword - a deadly, dark, evil sword made with blood sacrifice - and it didn't just disappear. It's around, just like Dawn. How not? There's too much attention paid to it for it not to turn up. And I say it has, and it's being wielded by the Evenstar, appropriately. :)

Think about the Tower of Joy. It was a reversed reenactment of the Battle for the Dawn, which had original Ice (Dawn) in the hands of a Stark most likely, wielded against Azor Ahai and his dark fire sword. The a Tower of Joy was flipped, the Stark with dark Lightbringer and the GeoDawnian with original Ice. There were two swords, in the Dawn age, at the ToJ, and probably agin in book 7. Dawn was NOT Azor Ahai's red sword. No. There's not evidence for that, and much to contradict it. A sword made from the sun drinking black stone would not be white. It would be smokey grey or black, like a V steel sword.

[Voice]

It may be that Ned intentionally made sure Dawn went back to Starfall, as far away from Winterfell as possible.

Big time. By all rights, he could have reclaimed his family's ancestral weapon. It speaks to the respect Ned has for the Sword, the Sword of the Morning, Arthur Dayne, House Dayne, and if I'm right (and it was originally NK's sword), the fall from grace House Stark is always reminding themselves of: Winter is Coming.

All these parallels between Dawn and Ice imply there's more than meet the eyes with the fight between Ned and Arthur at the Tower of Joy. It can't be a coincidence there has been a Dawn vs Ice fight. And I really wonder what Howland Reed did to make Ned win...

Great post. I've often said Howland somehow besting Arthur is really, really weird. But I've never before considered the Dawn x Ice implications in the ToJ dream. Gonna have to ponder that one. Good food for thought.

[LmL]

Just to be very, very clear, let me approach from the opposite angle. I am at no shortage of words for Lightbringer, as you may have noticed.

Azor Ahai's sword was steel - heat hammer and fold is steel making technique specifically. The folding is a direct reference to Valyrian steel, many times described with the word "fold." The sacred fires are very hot, dragonfire hot let's assume. Azor Ahai made steel in sacred fire with blood sacrifice - Nissa Nissa's blood.

If this sword still exists, it will look close to or even exactly like Valyrian steel. Thus, any Valyrian steel blade could potentially be Azor Ahai's red sword. And there's only one with shit ass fuck tons of Lightbringer symbolism all around it - Neds sword.

I don't care what Caitlyn thinks it is - if Ned even knows the truth about it, would he tell Cat? Hell no, she didn't need to know about Jon Targaryen either.

I hope that clarifies.

[Voice]

Just to clarify : I wasn't proposing the comet as the source of milkglass. Dawn is either an Others sword, magically hardened ice, which is as you say no problem for the Others, OR, it is made from a meteorite ore, just as the Daynes say it is. In order to suggest that Dawn isn't made from a fallen star, you have to come up with a reason the Daynes are totally confused. They aren't, I don't think - Dawn was made from a meteorite, one containing iron and phosphorus (typical for a comet ore). This still lines up with an explanation of ice, as the core or comets are frozen, and white steel could easily be named ice.

I see. I was mostly trying to work the comet idea into the Ice magicked, aka milkglass, longswords of the Others. If there were a relationship there, it would fit well into yet a different theory I have regarding the Others. As you have terms for Lightbringer, I have theories regarding the origins of Others LOL... honestly though, I have a stack of them.

And although steel can only get to light silver, phosphorus ("light-bringer," "Morningstar") is white. And adding phosphorus to steel DOES make scientific sense - it makes it SHARPER. I am imaging the white color as being the result of phosphorus - a nearly magical element in its own right. Think about the symbolism - phosphorus is NECESSARY for the first chain reactions of life on earth, and scientists think it first arrived via COMET. Dawn, the sword of the morning, brought the Dawn, the spring, and the light - life giving elements. It really fits.

Agreed. It really does fit, and seems a likely inspiration for GRRM. He was a sci-fi writer for many years, and would no doubt have researched such elements thoroughly. Here, we have a magical treatment of these elemental forces, events, and chemical reactions.

Azor Ahai, the bloodstone Emperor and instigator of the Long Night, bringer of darkness, also made a magic sword, a red fire sword (probably red and black fire like Drogin and Balerion). He worshipped the black stone, and as I posited in my most recent essay, his power base was Asshai, home of sun drinking black stone. So. Neds sword drinks the light - I think that's because it has the sun drinking rock added to it. If obsidian is natural frozen fire, this destroyed moon rock / bloodstone is twisted form of frozen fire. Frozen dark fire.

I can see how that would work, though I still find Ned's sword to be far too new a specimen to consider in this way.

Some people raise the seemingly valid point,: "but Valyrian steel wasn't around back then" No, but GeoDawnian steel was. They had dragons, and made fused stone structures BEFORE Valyria. They probably made steel too, and probably better. Remember, Azor Ahai forges a steel sword - "hear, hammer, and fold" - so we know there was steel knowledge back in the Dawn Age. He forged iron the "sacred fires," not sure if that's dragon fire or what, but it sounds very hot and magical. So the idea of Neds sword being that of Azor Ahai has no problems whatsoever. It's proto-Valyrian steel. Lightbringer was a magic sword - a deadly, dark, evil sword made with blood sacrifice - and it didn't just disappear. It's around, just like Dawn. How not? There's too much attention paid to it for it not to turn up. And I say it has, and it's being wielded by the Evenstar, appropriately. :)

I've raised the same concern. Valyria wasn't around. I do know better than to discard the clues planted in the world book however. And would not be surprised in the least if GeoDawnian smiths had turned out some dark-fire imbued swords with which to smite ice demons. It would also be a good reason for the term "dragonsteel" to exist, rather than naming it Valyrian, if it predated the Valyrian Freehold.

The Evenstar, as in Brienne's father?

Think about the Tower of Joy. It was a reversed reenactment of the Battle for the Dawn, which had original Ice (Dawn) in the hands of a Stark most likely, wielded against Azor Ahai and his dark fire sword. The a Tower of Joy was flipped, the Stark with dark Lightbringer and the GeoDawnian with original Ice. There were two swords, in the Dawn age, at the ToJ, and probably agin in book 7. Dawn was NOT Azor Ahai's red sword. No. There's not evidence for that, and much to contradict it. A sword made from the sun drinking black stone would not be white. It would be smokey grey or black, like a V steel sword.

Seems possible, but unlikely GRRM would delve into this level of detail. I fear the same in terms of my hierarchy, truth be told, and my origin theories. Some of them seem a little too far behind the curtain to make it to the printed page. Yet, they seem like very possible/probable outlines from which GRRM is working, and churning out the printed pages. I think ice spiders will make it, and that the higher ranks of the hierarchy will be evident. But like everything else, they will be cloaked in mystery, inaccuracies, and exaggerations. Ice spiders will be the big blue neon sign, flashing and heralding their return, but like Ser Waymar's screams of pain, they will likely be hidden behind the winds and snow.

[Voice]

Just to be very, very clear, let me approach from the opposite angle. I am at no shortage of words for Lightbringer, as you may have noticed.

Azor Ahai's sword was steel - heat hammer and fold is steel making technique specifically. The folding is a direct reference to Valyrian steel, many times described with the word "fold." The sacred fires are very hot, dragonfire hot let's assume. Azor Ahai made steel in sacred fire with blood sacrifice - Nissa Nissa's blood.

If this sword still exists, it will look close to or even exactly like Valyrian steel. Thus, any Valyrian steel blade could potentially be Azor Ahai's red sword. And there's only one with shit ass fuck tons of Lightbringer symbolism all around it - Neds sword.

I don't care what Caitlyn thinks it is - if Ned even knows the truth about it, would he tell Cat? Hell no, she didn't need to know about Jon Targaryen either.

I hope that clarifies.

Ah yes, that does clarify. Particularly the unit of measurement you're using. You're speaking my language ;)

[LmL]

Ah yes, that does clarify. Particularly the unit of measurement you're using. You're speaking my language ;)

I would have said a “metric" shit ass fuck tons of Lightbringer symbolism but I wasn’t sure where you are from, but yeah.

[LmL]

I see. I was mostly trying to work the comet idea into the Ice magicked, aka milkglass, longswords of the Others. If there were a relationship there, it would fit well into yet a different theory I have regarding the Others. As you have terms for Lightbringer, I have theories regarding the origins of Others LOL... honestly though, I have a stack of them.

It’s good to consider different angles and not allow your thinking to become rigid. I’m always happy to hear crackpot ideas if you need a sounding board.

Agreed. It really does fit, and seems a likely inspiration for GRRM. He was a sci-fi writer for many years, and would no doubt have researched such elements thoroughly. Here, we have a magical treatment of these elemental forces, events, and chemical reactions.

And he’s so clearly neck-deep in morningstar deities and associations, so to have a sword named Dawn made from a meteorite... the phosphorus thing fits so many ways. Life giving. Light bringing. Lucifer. White stone. Burning.

The tower at Starfall that Ashara Dayne let from was called the Pale Stone Tower.

I can see how that would work, though I still find Ned's sword to be far too new a specimen to consider in this way.

I've raised the same concern. Valyria wasn't around. I do know better than to discard the clues planted in the world book however. And would not be surprised in the least if GeoDawnian smiths had turned out some dark-fire imbued swords with which to smite ice demons. It would also be a good reason for the term "dragonsteel" to exist, rather than naming it Valyrian, if it predated the Valyrian Freehold.

I think the story of Azor Ahai indicates that they did. And really, if they were a Great Empire and such, it makes sense. They had dragons and fused stone, and in Dany’s dream they are holding swords of pale fire. Are they all made from comet rock? I do not know. But I think Azor Ahai / BSE copied and perverted the GEotD culture, so he made a dark fire sword in stead of pale fire one. I think the originals might not have required blood sacrifice - we are never told this about Dawn, and it’s a magic sword. The only reason we are given that it is magic is that the meteorite was a magic stone. I think the red comet and my astronomy theory indicates the comet is magical, as are all the natural forces like fire and ice and blood and wind and sea etc. In any case, Azor Ahai perverted the sword ting and likely dragon bonding too. Basically, the Valyrian freehold inherited the Bloodstone Emperor’s corrupted magical knowledge and techniques. The purpose of them appearing to Dany, I believe, is to balance out the bad influence of Quite and perhaps help Dany to be a more GeoDawnian style dragon lord.

The Evenstar, as in Brienne's father?

Yes. Whether you want to call her the daughter of the Evenstar, or simply associate her with the Evenstar because of that and the fact that their used to be a House Evenstar on Tarth, until house Morn took over their castle. Interestingly, the story of Ser Galladon of Morn that Brienne tells (its a popular Tarth legend) is loaded with light bringer stuff, and its even preceded by a quick mention to some other “Lord Lucifer.” So yes, Brienne is an important character, more than many realize, and I believe she is running around sacrificing people to weird trees with dark light bringer - just as Ned was doing in the Godswood when he cleaned his sword there. It’s possible this arrangement was pleasing to the old gods of balance of magic in general.

Think about this also - the idea that Ice Dragons melt when slain. That means there’s a small chance the godswood pool that is so significant could actually be an Ice Dragon waiting to reform. The idea that Winter is spreading from Winterfell is very interesting, and would maybe fit with this admittedly far fetched idea. Bt hey, I do think an Ice Dragon is going to show up. He’s either coming from the far north, the heart of winter, or... the Stark Godswood. He’s Jon’s Dragon, so that would be a cool fit.

Seems possible, but unlikely GRRM would delve into this level of detail. I fear the same in terms of my hierarchy, truth be told, and my origin theories. Some of them seem a little too far behind the curtain to make it to the printed page. Yet, they seem like very possible/probable outlines from which GRRM is working, and churning out the printed pages. I think ice spiders will make it, and that the higher ranks of the hierarchy will be evident. But like everything else, they will be cloaked in mystery, inaccuracies, and exaggerations. Ice spiders will be the big blue neon sign, flashing and heralding their return, but like Ser Waymar's screams of pain, they will likely be hidden behind the winds and snow.

Well, I don’t think we will get confirmation of everything in the novels that he has done. He’s not going to have some epilogue where they confirm all the leftover secret theories and such. my astronomy theory, for example, does dictate certain predictions, which I will eventually make, but I don’t expect every bit of it to be confirmed.

Here’s what I think is happening: George has imagined more backstory than can for in the books. It’s partly good writing practice - every character is the main character of their story. To do this, you have to make a backstory for everyone and everything. Now, you can’t cram it in and slow down the story. So, what Martin has done is to just briefly refer to complex stories here and there in drips and drabs, often as asides in conversations about something totally different, and leave us, the clever reader, to piece it together. I think Martin makes puzzles all over the place, wherever he can, and leaves just enough clues for us to follow the trail, but often not enough to be absolutely sure. Thing is, many of these secrets are backstory - they don’t “matter” as everyone likes to say, for the main strokes of the story. Of course they add a richness and extra layers of meaning, and they are super damn interesting. All this Dawn Age stuff is going to play out again, likely inverted in some way, to bring resolution to the original disharmony. Knowing this is just more fun and more context, but Martin doesn’t have to spend a lot of time bogging down the story.

[Evolett]

Dawn and Dusk, Morning and Evening, Light and Dark. Is Dawn really unique? A few observations off the top of my head:

1. Starfall and Winterfell (in the south and in the north)
   
2. The sword name parallels: There is a constellation called the Sword of the Morning and we have the Ice Dragon with its bright blue star which serves as a traveler's guide.
   
3. When Aegon conquered Westeros, he collected the swords of the vanquished and welded them to form the Iron Throne. What a strange practice. Makes you wonder why he did that. The swords of Dorne and the North are not part of this construction. Aegon did not conquer Dorne and the North yielded.
   
4. The Sword of the Morning does not pass from a father to his heir. Only a knight of House Dayne who has proven himself worthy of the sword may wield it. It lies dormant otherwise.
   
5. We also have a couple of examples of ancestral swords not passing from father to heir:
   

• Jon and Longclaw. LC Mormont passed over his Jorah who brought shame on his house and gave Jon the sword instead.
  
• Randolf Tarly thinks Sam unworthy of the ancestral sword Heartsbane. Sam ends up at the NW, his younger brother inherits the sword.
  

The original Ice is ‘lost’. The Starks acquired a new Valyrian sword 400 years ago and named it ‘Ice’. This doesn’t mean they acquired the new sword immediately after the original was lost. The Lannisters lost Brightroar and Tywin was unable to procure a replacement until he got his hands on Ice.

Let’s assume Dawn has a twin. How could it have been lost and where could it be now?

Keeping in mind that Dawn is not necessarily passed from a father to his heir and that ancestral swords may be given to worthier men outside of the family, we can ask if there is any Stark we know of who brought shame on House Stark. The only one that comes to my mind is the Night’s King. If he indeed wielded the original Ice, his crimes certainly made him unworthy of such a sword. All records surrounding these events were destroyed. If the sword had been put aside for the next worthy man, it should have turned up by now. Surely, there’ve been enough worthy Starks since then. This makes me wonder if an unworthy man defiles such a sword, rendering it unusable? This would explain why only the deserving may wield it. Jon has already proven himself worthy of an alien sword. Do Jon’s crypt dreams have something to do with this ‘Sword of the Evening’?

Edit: Another possible hint possibly supporting the notion that a sword wielded by an unworthy man is defiled, or at the very least, lies dormant: Ice was reforged into two swords, Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail. Oathkeeper is wielded by Brienne, a worthy and honourable person. Widow's Wail lies dormant somewhere, and formerly belonged to our pet hate, Joffery, one who was definitely unworthy of that sword (given its origins).

But there is another sword, named Nightfall which was claimed by the Red Kraken, Dalton Greyjoy. How did he come by this sword? It’s described as a Valyrian Steel sword with a moonstone pommel. Nightfall now belongs to House Harlow. Why not House Greyjoy? Is this another example of a sword handed to a deserving man, rather than from a father to his heir?

We can’t equate the original Ice with Nightfall but there’s something fishy going on. I suspect there are two swords of this kind, i.e Dawn has a twin.

[Mychel_Redfort]

Very nice thoughts Evolett !

[*]The sword name parallels: There is a constellation called the Sword of the Morning and we have the Ice Dragon with its bright blue star which serves as a traveler's guide.

Better : the bright blue star serves as the north polar star.

[LmL]

Well, I just had a long and thought answer eaten by my computer. Awesome. So, anyway, yes, I've noticed the sword of the morning and ice dragon parallels. The ice dragon is easy to discern - Draco and the pole star. The sword of the morning I am pretty sure is Orion, the huntsman. He's been seen as a giant (the first Nephilim), a great Shepherd, messenger of the gods in various forms,as well as warriors of various kinds.

A bit from Wikipedia:

In medieval Muslim astronomy, Orion was known as al-jabbar, "the giant".[12] Orion's sixth brightest star, Saiph, is named from the Arabic, saif al-jabbar, meaning "sword of the giant".[13]

In old Hungarian tradition, "Orion" is known as (magic) Archer (Íjász), or Reaper (Kaszás). In recently rediscovered myths he is called Nimrod (Hungarian "Nimród"), the greatest hunter, father of the twins "Hunor" and "Magor". The "π" and "o" stars (on upper right) form together the reflex bow or the lifted scythe. In other Hungarian traditions, "Orion's belt" is known as "Judge's stick" (Bírópálca).[16]

In Scandinavian tradition, "Orion's belt" was known as Frigg's Distaff (friggerock) or Freyja's distaff.[17]

The Finns call the Orion's belt and the stars below it as Väinämöisen viikate (Väinämöinen's scythe).[18] Another name for the asterism of Alnilam, Alnitak and Mintaka is Väinämöisen vyö' (Väinämöinen's Belt) and the stars "hanging" from the belt as Kalevanmiekka (Kaleva's sword).

He's associated with dogs also by way of Sirius, the Dog Star:

Homer, Iliad 22. 26 ff :

"That star [seirios the dog-star] which comes on in the autumn and whose conspicuous brightness far outshines the stars that are numbered in the night's darkening, the star they give the name of Orion's Dog (kynos Orionos), which is brightest among the stars, and yet is wrought as a sign of evil and brings on the great fever for unfortunate mortals."

And here's a connection with the dawn:

Homer, Odyssey 5. 121 ff (trans. Shewring) (Greek epic C8th B.C.) :

"[Kalypso laments her loss of Odysseus:] You are merciless, you gods, resentful beyond all other beings; you are jealous if without disguise a goddess makes a man her bedfellow, her beloved husband. So it was when Eos (Dawn) of the rosy-fingers chose out Orion; you gods who live in such ease yourselves were jealous of her until chaste Artemis in her cloth-of-gold visited him with her gentle shafts and slew him.."

The Hunter is frequently depicted as hunting Taurus, the bull, with Canis Major and Minor being his hunting dogs. He's often holding a lion pelt or a shield.

Orion, the Sword of the Momrning constellation, is a good bet for the celestial equivalent to the Last Hero. It's either Orion or the moon, or perhaps the ice dragon. His twelve heroic dead friends are the zodiacs, of course.

[LmL]

But there is another sword, named Nightfall which was claimed by the Red Kraken, Dalton Greyjoy. How did he come by this sword? It’s described as a Valyrian Steel sword with a moonstone pommel. Nightfall now belongs to House Harlow. Why not House Greyjoy? Is this another example of a sword handed to a deserving man, rather than from a father to his heir?

We can’t equate the original Ice with Nightfall but there’s something fishy going on. I suspect there are two swords of this kind, i.e Dawn has a twin.

Ah yes, Nightfall with its moonstone pommel. That certainly reminds us of the proposed Long Night cataclysm. But then, what about "Red Rain?" That sounds like a million dragon meteor shower. Then we have Heartsbane - certainly the bane of Nissa Nissa's heart was Lightbringer, red comet of villains. What about Orphanmaker? Well, the grandmother moon which gave birth to dragons is dead now, so that's plainly true of Lightbinger the comet. Blackfyre? Already covered that, Azor Ahai's sword was black and red flame, like Balerion and Drogon's. Dark Sister? The smaller fire moon. Widow's Wail - Nissa Nissa's wail of anguish and ecstasy that cracked the moon. Longclaw - referring to the dragon's claw, the longest claw of any animal, with Lightbringer the comet as the dragon. Oathkeeper and Vigilience refer to the coming return of the comet.

And finally, Truth, well - that's me explaining this to everyone. The riddle of the Sphinx is the riddle of the fire moon, the eighth wanderer. Every single Valyrian Sword is dropping hints about the two moons, mainly the fire moon which was destroyed.

[LmL]

Brightroar - that should be self explanatory. The brightest roar ever. Lady Forlorn, the remaining moon, alone without its companion. Lamentation, well that was the cry of the entire world when the moon goddess was destroyed. It's almost like these Valyrian steel swords are trying to tell us something.

[Bluetiger]

Nightfall may be reference to interesting story by Isaac Asimov, titled "Nightfall"

summary from Wikipedia: " The fictional planet Lagash (Kalgash in the novel adaptation) is located in astellar system containing six suns (Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta are the only ones named in the short story; Onos, Dovim, Trey, Patru, Tano, and Sitha in the novel), which keep the whole planet continuously illuminated; total darkness is unknown, and as a result so are all the stars outside the planet's stellar system.A group of scientists from Saro University begin to make a series of related discoveries: Sheerin 501, a psychologist, researches the effects of prolonged exposure to darkness; Siferra 89, an archaeologist, finds evidence of multiple cyclical collapses of civilization which have occurred regularly about every 2000 years, and Beenay 25 is an astronomer who has discovered irregularities in the orbit of Lagash around its primary sun Onos. Beenay takes his findings to his superior at the university, Aton, who formulated the Theory of Universal Gravitation (the in-story discussion of this makes light of an article once written about Einstein's Theory of Relativity, referencing the false notion that "only twelve men" could understand it). This prompts the astronomers at Saro University to seek the cause of this anomaly. Eventually they discover that the only possible cause of the deviation is an astronomical body that orbits Lagash.Beenay, through his friend Theremon 762, a reporter, has learned some of the beliefs of the group known as the Cult ("Apostles of Flame" in the novel). They believe the world would be destroyed in a darkness with the appearance of stars that unleash a torrent of fire. Beenay combines what he has learned about the repetitive collapses at the archaeological site, and the new theory of potential eclipses; he concludes that once every 2049 years the one sun visible is eclipsed, resulting in a brief "night". His theory is that this "night" was so horrifying to the people who experienced it that they desperately sought out any light source to try to drive it away: particularly, by frantically starting fires which burned down and destroyed their successive civilizations.Since the current population of Lagash has never experienced general darkness, the scientists conclude that the darkness would traumatize the people and that they would need to prepare for it. When nightfall occurs, the scientists (who have prepared themselves for darkness) and the rest of the planet are most surprised by the sight of hitherto invisible stars outside the six-star system filling the sky. Never having seen other stars in the sky, the inhabitants of Lagash had come to believe that their six-star system contained the entirety of the universe. In one horrifying instant, anyone gazing at the night sky – the first night sky which they have ever known – is suddenly faced with the reality that the universe contains many millions upon billions of stars: the awesome, horrifying realization of just how vast the universe truly is drives them insane. The short story concludes with the arrival of the night and a crimson glow that was "not the glow of a sun", with the implication that societal collapse has occurred once again. In the novel and X Minus One program, civil disorder breaks out; cities are destroyed in massive fires and civilization collapses, with the ashes of the fallen civilization and the competing groups trying to seize control"

[Voice]

Brightroar - that should be self explanatory. The brightest roar ever. Lady Forlorn, the remaining moon, alone without its companion. Lamentation, well that was the cry of the entire world when the moon goddess was destroyed. It's almost like these Valyrian steel swords are trying to tell us something.

I have to agree. Between 'House Words', ancestral Valyrian or milkglass sword names, as well as the "clash", "song", and "water dancing" that accompany all swords, the language of swords is clearly meant to convey messages to the reader. In fact, you could say the first, and last (so far), messages of the entire series came from a sword (or sickle).

It's at once both a subtle and in-your-face device. Layers and layers and layers, folded upon themselves over and over again.

[LmL]

Very nice, yes that's a good metaphor. Of course, we know it takes more an 30- I mean 50- I mean 100 days to produce a Valyrian steel novel. Heat, hammer, fold, edit, hammer, re-write, fold, appear at cons, heat, troll Wetsros forums, hammer and fold, kill some Starks, heat, hammer...

[LmL]

Nightfall may be reference to interesting story by Isaac Asimov, titled "Nightfall"

summary from Wikipedia: " The fictional planet Lagash (Kalgash in the novel adaptation) is located in astellar system containing six suns (Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta are the only ones named in the short story; Onos, Dovim, Trey, Patru, Tano, and Sitha in the novel), which keep the whole planet continuously illuminated; total darkness is unknown, and as a result so are all the stars outside the planet's stellar system.A group of scientists from Saro University begin to make a series of related discoveries: Sheerin 501, a psychologist, researches the effects of prolonged exposure to darkness; Siferra 89, an archaeologist, finds evidence of multiple cyclical collapses of civilization which have occurred regularly about every 2000 years, and Beenay 25 is an astronomer who has discovered irregularities in the orbit of Lagash around its primary sun Onos. Beenay takes his findings to his superior at the university, Aton, who formulated the Theory of Universal Gravitation (the in-story discussion of this makes light of an article once written about Einstein's Theory of Relativity, referencing the false notion that "only twelve men" could understand it). This prompts the astronomers at Saro University to seek the cause of this anomaly. Eventually they discover that the only possible cause of the deviation is an astronomical body that orbits Lagash.Beenay, through his friend Theremon 762, a reporter, has learned some of the beliefs of the group known as the Cult ("Apostles of Flame" in the novel). They believe the world would be destroyed in a darkness with the appearance of stars that unleash a torrent of fire. Beenay combines what he has learned about the repetitive collapses at the archaeological site, and the new theory of potential eclipses; he concludes that once every 2049 years the one sun visible is eclipsed, resulting in a brief "night". His theory is that this "night" was so horrifying to the people who experienced it that they desperately sought out any light source to try to drive it away: particularly, by frantically starting fires which burned down and destroyed their successive civilizations.Since the current population of Lagash has never experienced general darkness, the scientists conclude that the darkness would traumatize the people and that they would need to prepare for it. When nightfall occurs, the scientists (who have prepared themselves for darkness) and the rest of the planet are most surprised by the sight of hitherto invisible stars outside the six-star system filling the sky. Never having seen other stars in the sky, the inhabitants of Lagash had come to believe that their six-star system contained the entirety of the universe. In one horrifying instant, anyone gazing at the night sky the first night sky which they have ever known is suddenly faced with the reality that the universe contains many millions upon billions of stars: the awesome, horrifying realization of just how vast the universe truly is drives them insane. The short story concludes with the arrival of the night and a crimson glow that was "not the glow of a sun", with the implication that societal collapse has occurred once again. In the novel and X Minus One program, civil disorder breaks out; cities are destroyed in massive fires and civilization collapses, with the ashes of the fallen civilization and the competing groups trying to seize control"

Blue Tiger that was a wild little story, I do belive I shall read it, as I have been meaning to educate myself in the world of Asimov for years. Martin is definitely aware and probably familiar with all of his work, as most writers are, so its definitely possible this story may have been in the back of his mind when he was brainstorming astronomy death scenarios. In my third astronomy essay, linked below, I mentioned a ferocious Obsidian-claw Butterfly goddess from the Aztecs, she was lord of these star entities which came forth during an eclipse and ate people. The stars around the sun during an eclipse we perceived as to be attacking the sun. Definitely a similar idea, and kind of shows the precedent for using weird astronomy to create interesting circumstances for a fantasy or sci Fi novel. The concept of mankind basing his religion and beliefs on astronomy is well understood by many great authors - it's a basic, fundamental part of human existence. To be honest, studying mythtology without accounting for astronomy is like ancient man trying to understand what people are doing on the trading floors on Wall Street without being told what a computer is, or money for that matter.

[Voice]

Confirmation the Ice Spiders are Coming!!!

[LmL]

Dude I just died. That's was the funniest GoT spoof probably ever.