The Hierarchy of the Others

[Mother of Dragons]

Tier 1 - Stannis

Tier 2 - King Other

Tier 3 - Worker Others

Tier 4 - Walking Dead On Ice

Tier 5 - Everyone Else

I think of TWD too whenever I read about them now or see them on the HBO show. Rick & co. don't realize how much worse it could actually be.

[LmL]

p.s.:

House Dustin: Neither their arms or their words appear in the text. According to semi-canon sources they blazon their shield as two rusted longaxes with black shafts crossed, a black crown between their points

a black crown?? meaning what exactly?!?!

The longaxes with black shafts reminds me of something from the iron islands, with all their various reaper and sickle motifs and their love of the color black. The black crown is really interesting. A black crown could be something a super-villian or "lord of night" would wear, or it could hint at a poisoned crown - the curse of the Barrow King. The King who rises too high will be cast down.

[TheSmallOther]

Just a thought regarding dragonglass and dragonsteel stuff. Perhaps it's just a matter of armor (perhaps not usual but some magical one). Some lower-rank Others (known as white walkers) do not have it, so they are killed by dragonsteel. Same as simple human warrior (e.g., city guard) can be shot by an arrow. High-rank Other (Other-knight) has more armor on him and therefore requires more powerfull weapon (dragonsteel) in order to be killed.

And by the way, show has similar different appearances. These white walkers we've seen in the woods (Royce and co., Sam and Gilly) looked like they were naked. Icy, but without any proper cloth. 13 guys (aka as NK band) who took Craster's son and turned his eyes blue, were dressed in something. I bet dragonsteel is for them.

[Voice]

I'll bold my responses within your text

in response to the rest, i think it's interesting of note, in the wiki:

The Barrow Kings claimed descent from the First King of the First Men, who is said to be buried at Great Barrow at Barrowton.^[1][2] Singers claim the Barrow Kings fought against the Kings of Winter, the Starks of Winterfell north of the barrowlands, in the Thousand Years War, but runes of the First Men indicates the conflict lasted about two hundred years. When the last Barrow King submitted to Winterfell, the Stark king received his daughter in marriage.

(Could this daughter be a Lady Dustin, and could this Lady Dustin, have been considered the Queen, with Bran The Builder Stark, 13th Lord Commander, and Night's King, the Stark King that won her? Or, perhaps there was a triangle, between The Lady Dustin, The Night's King, and The King Of Winter that drove him away? Could that be the scene Bran sees with the guy getting his throat slit by the pale woman with bronze sickle?)

The Dustins of Barrowton claim descent from the First King and the Barrow Kings.^[1]

Maester Kennet's Passages of the Dead mentions a curse was supposedly placed on the Great Barrow, weakening and making corpselike any living man who dared to equal the First King. Some maesters think the corpse queen of the Night's King may have actually been a daughter of a Barrow King, as they were often connected with graves.^[1]

I agree with you on the interpretation you gave of neverborn. It's an apt term, but since they're called white walkers in the published version, I think it would only confuse people to run with it. But I do agree. The Others are creating the neverborn and wights.

I don't wholly subscribe to the theory the Others built the Wall. But, if the LH = NK, it stands to reason he built the Wall using the magics he obtained from the pale woman or cotf or whatever else he came upon. The Black Gate beneath the Nightfort clearly evokes cotf type magics: a warded weirwood entrance. But, we have nothing in text to suggest cotf utilized Ice. Ever. So, that may point to multiple schools of magic being employed.

And indeed on the white ravens! They are the true harbingers, as are their inhuman counterparts, turning black crows into their thralls north of the Wall.

As to your quote above, I am always distrustful of the Citadel's "history" of the North, particularly the North before the Andal Invasion, as records were not yet written. I tend to trust the wetnurses more than the maesters. Thus far in the series, Old Nan has proved far more reliable in terms of the realities of the North than Maester Luwin.

So I admit my bias upfront. Because of that, I don't put a lot of weight in the the Barrowton bride. I remain open minded, but given the material at hand, I remain on the side of the pale woman being more otherworldly than merely being a Dustin. Also, if the LH=NK, and if his name was Brandon the Builder, all this occurred before House Stark was consolidated as a formal House. Bran founded the lineage, and the Barrow King story clearly takes place well after House Stark was founded.

[Voice]

I was more referring to the specific arc of the Nights King, as opposed to light and dark generally speaking. The story of a Morningstar deity (Lucifer, Osiris) is they try to challenge God, rising high before falling and being resurrected as lord of the dead / lord of the underworld. That's what I was proposing - as the Bloodstone E, he rises high and challenges God ("cast down the true gods and worshipped a black stone that fell from the sky"), is brought low (the battle at Battle Isle), and finds redemption through sacrifice as the Nights King, sacrificing his soul and his seed to keep some sort of pact with the Others.

As was I. I think, like most of our characters, the man who was the Last Hero and Night's King was both good and bad. I don't think he was at first a tyrant, nor at first a hero. I think he was just a man, like any other, who started building a Wall by day, and delving into dark magics by night. Like Stannis, he may have originally felt that was the only way to win his war. And, like Mel, his enchantress was likely quite charismatic and persuasive.

I don't see a Pact existing with the Others myself. They don't seem like the negotiating types, and would have nothing to gain from a Pact. The cotf were able to protect their sacred trees, and so were motivated to forge a peace. I don't see what the Others could be offered. There are many who share the view such a Pact exists though, and that Craster's sons are an example of the offerings they gladly accept. But how is that adequate for their needs? Why demand the needed resource to build your cavalry if you never intend to use it?

And if as the synopsis states, they seek to destroy all we would call "life," it seems difficult to placate that impetus just by offering a son once in a while. Also, bear in mind, Waymar Royce was killed by a white walker, in spite of Craster offering his sons to the wood.

[Voice]

Why do you think I'm going to get greyscale?

LOL well, honestly, it started as a joke to tease Dany's fandom. But the more I thought about it, the more it started making sense. I think greyscale is the biological doom of Valyria. Something killed the dragons there and it wasn't volcanic activity. They are fire made flesh after all, that was their native habitat.

There is also Mel's desire to wake the "stone dragon" at "Dragonstone." So I asked myself, how can a dragon become stone? Well, dragons have scales. And if I had scales, I certainly wouldn't want to come into contact with a disease called greyscale. Greyscale turns men into stone. Why not dragons? Now we have Jon Connington hiding the disease in the Crownlands. So I think there's nice bittersweet recipe for disaster waiting for Dany and her dragons....

There might be room for Linnaean classification yet, though. I don't know if it was here or Heresy, but a quote from Old Nan's story to Bran tells of The Others laying with humans and one of them had half human babies. I want to say halfling, but I'm sure they didn't produce anything that would be as cute as an ice hobbit. I used to read about fairies when I was a lot younger, so it's been awhile, but I'm sure there's a legend somewhere about human-fae offspring. My point being that a hybrid would be a new species and it would be funny to create a taxonomy about them when we know eeverything.

These books have so many forms of life and un-life that you almost have to develop a classification system just to keep them all straight! There are Mel's shadowbabies, which can't speak nor possess any physical body or longevity. There are white walkers, who speak, laugh, ride horses, etc. There are the un-dead, like Beric, Lady Stoneheart, and Coldhands, who all speak and retain their memories. But of this group, Coldhands is cold, while when Beric sheds blood, it is hot. There are un-dead wights, which seem to operate by hive mind, or remote. There are other outliers, like Robert Strong and the Undying of Qarth. Maybe once it all concludes GRRM can give us a nice spoilery second volume of the Worldbook. Coming to bookstores in Fall 2045 ;)

[Voice]

Just a thought regarding dragonglass and dragonsteel stuff. Perhaps it's just a matter of armor (perhaps not usual but some magical one). Some lower-rank Others (known as white walkers) do not have it, so they are killed by dragonsteel. Same as simple human warrior (e.g., city guard) can be shot by an arrow. High-rank Other (Other-knight) has more armor on him and therefore requires more powerfull weapon (dragonsteel) in order to be killed.

And by the way, show has similar different appearances. These white walkers we've seen in the woods (Royce and co., Sam and Gilly) looked like they were naked. Icy, but without any proper cloth. 13 guys (aka as NK band) who took Craster's son and turned his eyes blue, were dressed in something. I bet dragonsteel is for them.

As much as I'd like to, I'm hesitant to use material from the show to support any theories. And as far as armor goes, the white walker Samwell stabbed in the neck with dragonglass was wearing armor. We don't know if it is protective against dragonglass, but it may well be. That would definitely make a lot of sense. It clearly offers them incredible (Predator-like) camouflage. In the books, I'll point out, all white walkers thus far have worn armor.

I do agree dragonsteel is required for the higher-ranking Others though. Whether that is because of magical properties within the blade, or because the other Others are tougher in some way, remains to be seen. The answer is likely both I think.

Falling asleep so I'll have to add more on the morrow haha :)

[Neumond]

Great topic and an interesting read so far. :)

I would like to go back to the archers armed with dragonglass.

I don´t know what the relationship between winter and the ww or others or whatever is.

Perhaps they bring winter with them or they come with winter.

But either way I believe, winter enhances their abilities.

In the first chapter of GoT, we get told how cold everything got. We have the experienced ranger telling us how the cold is the worst even before we see the others.

And I always thought this was the most frightening ability of them.

Just imagine a village, a holdfast even a castle in winter.

They´ve stored food and wood and whatever you need to survive a winter that lasts years. People are wrapped up in cloaks, are lying in their beds cuddled together to get warm.

And then there are creatures coming that make winter so much worse. Everything is freezing up.

They probably can´t light enough fires to fight the cold. Perhaps even the air will be too cold to breath.

Could you shoot them with dragonglass arrows? You probably could, if you can move your finger in this otherworldly cold... And if they come close enough to be shot...

Perhaps they don´t need to touch you to kill you in a real winter? Perhaps their appearance is enough to kill.

It could be, that we just didn´t see the full potential of the ww to cause havoc yet. Chances are: they are much worse when winter is upon the north.

Westeros is already in a bad shape to go through a normal winter.

I believe, the next winter will be the mother of winters. It will be the long night.

We had all these warnings. how a long summer is followed by a long winter. All this talk of the long night, that lasted generations.

It won´t last a generation. But it will be much longer than every winter the people of westeros are remembering.

Be warned, if you go past this point, crackpottery will await you:

The sleeping beauty scenario:

I imagine men of the NW standing motionless on top of the wall. Frozen to death were they stood. The Others are probably riding their ice spiders through an army of statues, all in a deadly silence.

Btw: Thanks for the epic image of giant ice spiders creeping up the wall. It seems so obvious but it never occurred to me.

Castle Black turns into the castle of the sleeping beauty.

Actually the sleeping beauty castle had a big magical wall too.

Perhaps Jon is the sleeping beauty, and know what? He just got stung.

And I wouldn´t be too surprised, if winter comes right now in that moment. Who will give the prince a kiss to awake him and his brothers from his dead-like sleep? I don´t think it will be a lovely princess. And our sweet prince will probably not be the same as he was.

Synopsis: Just because dragonglass is the perfect weapon now. It doesn´t mean it will be the perfect weapon when winter is there. So I wouldn´t say this is proof for WW and Others being different.

[Voice]

:cheers: thanks for checking it out Neumond. Great comments...

Great topic and an interesting read so far. :)

I would like to go back to the archers armed with dragonglass.

I don´t know what the relationship between winter and the ww or others or whatever is.

Perhaps they bring winter with them or they come with winter.

But either way I believe, winter enhances their abilities.

In the first chapter of GoT, we get told how cold everything got. We have the experienced ranger telling us how the cold is the worst even before we see the others.

Indeed! And Winter has only just begun. That ranger is Gared, who smells something strange in the cold. Will feels it too. And they know that whatever it is, it loves them not.

And I always thought this was the most frightening ability of them.

Just imagine a village, a holdfast even a castle in winter.

They´ve stored food and wood and whatever you need to survive a winter that lasts years. People are wrapped up in cloaks, are lying in their beds cuddled together to get warm.

And then there are creatures coming that make winter so much worse. Everything is freezing up.

They probably can´t light enough fires to fight the cold. Perhaps even the air will be too cold to breath.

When Mel weds Alys Karstark to the Magnar of Thenn, Jon notices that the fire itself seems to cower under the cold wind. Diminished somehow. I wish I had the quote handy, but I don't.

We also have two separate groups of wildlings, apparently killed by a sudden cold snap. One group is the encampment Will found in the AGOT prologue:

“It was the cold,” Gared said with iron certainty. “I saw men freeze last winter, and the one before, when I was half a boy. Everyone talks about snows forty foot deep, and how the ice wind comes howling out of the north, but the real enemy is the cold. It steals up on you quieter than Will, and at first you shiver and your teeth chatter and you stamp your feet and dream of mulled wine and nice hot fires. It burns, it does. Nothing burns like the cold. But only for a while. Then it gets inside you and starts to fill you up, and after a while you don’t have the strength to fight it. It’s easier just to sit down or go to sleep. They say you don’t feel any pain toward the end. First you go weak and drowsy, and everything starts to fade, and then it’s like sinking into a sea of warm milk. Peaceful, like.”

“Such eloquence, Gared,” Ser Waymar observed. “I never suspected you had it in you.”

“I’ve had the cold in me too, lordling.” Gared pulled back his hood, giving Ser Waymar a good long look at the stumps where his ears had been. “Two ears, three toes, and the little finger off my left hand. I got off light. We found my brother frozen at his watch, with a smile on his face.”

Ser Waymar shrugged. “You ought dress more warmly, Gared.”

Gared glared at the lordling, the scars around his ear holes flushed red with anger where Maester Aemon had cut the ears away. “We’ll see how warm you can dress when the winter comes.” He pulled up his hood and hunched over his garron, silent and sullen.

“If Gared said it was the cold...” Will began. “Have you drawn any watches this past week, Will?”

“Yes, m’lord.” There never was a week when he did not draw a dozen bloody watches. What
was the man driving at?

“And how did you find the Wall?”

“Weeping,” Will said, frowning. He saw it clear enough, now that the lordling had pointed it out. “They couldn’t have froze. Not if the Wall was weeping. It wasn’t cold enough.”

Royce nodded. “Bright lad. We’ve had a few light frosts this past week, and a quick flurry of snow now and then, but surely no cold fierce enough to kill eight grown men. Men clad in fur and leather, let me remind you, with shelter near at hand, and the means of making fire.” The knight’s smile was cocksure. “Will, lead us there. I would see these dead men for myself.”

The means of making fire wasn't enough, we now know. We saw what this weaponized cold looks like firsthand in the ADWD prologue from V6's POV: the frost growing on the weirwood, frozen blood...

Could you shoot them with dragonglass arrows? You probably could, if you can move your finger in this otherworldly cold... And if they come close enough to be shot...

Perhaps they don´t need to touch you to kill you in a real winter? Perhaps their appearance is enough to kill.

We learned from Samwell's POV that it felt like his bladder was going to freeze within him when Ser Puddles approached. Any longer in his presence, and he would have frozen to death.

The come in the cold, but they bring an even stronger cold with them.

It could be, that we just didn´t see the full potential of the ww to cause havoc yet. Chances are: they are much worse when winter is upon the north.

Westeros is already in a bad shape to go through a normal winter.

I believe, the next winter will be the mother of winters. It will be the long night.

We had all these warnings. how a long summer is followed by a long winter. All this talk of the long night, that lasted generations.

It won´t last a generation. But it will be much longer than every winter the people of westeros are remembering.

Winter is their native habitat. They walk as easily upon snow as we walk down the street. Easier, in fact. We've only yet seen them in Summer and Fall. We haven't even seen the true threat and dangers they pose. Now that Winter has come, we will.

Be warned, if you go past this point, crackpottery will await you:

The sleeping beauty scenario:

I imagine men of the NW standing motionless on top of the wall. Frozen to death were they stood. The Others are probably riding their ice spiders through an army of statues, all in a deadly silence.

Btw: Thanks for the epic image of giant ice spiders creeping up the wall. It seems so obvious but it never occurred to me.

Castle Black turns into the castle of the sleeping beauty.

Actually the sleeping beauty castle had a big magical wall too.

Perhaps Jon is the sleeping beauty, and know what? He just got stung.

And I wouldn´t be too surprised, if winter comes right now in that moment. Who will give the prince a kiss to awake him and his brothers from his dead-like sleep? I don´t think it will be a lovely princess. And our sweet prince will probably not be the same as he was.

Are you envisioning a kiss from Mel? ...or perhaps, Night's King? I do like the imagery of frozen rangers atop the Wall. It recalls Jon's flaming sword dream, and the scarecrow rangers that stood beside him. Cool stuff :)

Synopsis: Just because dragonglass is the perfect weapon now. It doesn´t mean it will be the perfect weapon when winter is there. So I wouldn´t say this is proof for WW and Others being different.

Entirely possible, and it's something I've considered. But, we've nothing to suggest dragonglass would lose its effectiveness against white walkers in Winter... And dragonsteel was wielded by the Last Hero, when the Others first came in the long night. That means he was dealing with the Ancient variety, before sacrifices were made to them from which they might create their neverborn white walker servants....

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

[Neumond]

Don´t thank me.

I have to thank you for creating an interesting topic and moderating such a great discussion :).

And wow, you know these several thousand pages by heart do you? Amazing.

The cowering fire:

I´ve forgotten Jons remark about the fire during the wedding. That´s cool stuff, I will check it out tomorrow. Thank you for pointing it out.

The prologue:

And I still think the prologue of GoT is the richest encounter we had so far. It has so much information webbed into. And the exact dialogue you cited feels creepier every time I read it...

Sam´s encounter with Ser Puddles is also great stuff.

And I think, that they do both, too: Coming in the cold and bringing cold with them.

They probably draw strength from the cold and I think this will make their ability to kill with cold even stronger.

As you say, winter is their natural habitat.

Could Sam have come as close to Ser Puddles in a true winter? And by winter I´m talking of the long night now. There is probably some magic involved with a long night that is lacking in a "normal" winter. We seem to be on the same page with this believe :).

Crackpot-time:

A Kiss from Mel seems the obvious choice in this scenario. The fiery kiss was already performed to give "life" in this story. I know, the show isn´t the best source. But I think there is significance in D&D hitting us with Mel´s knowledge about it. But perhaps we get some underdog performing a kiss? What about this lovely nights queen, that was already mentioned in this thread? I think there could be several possibilities. I actually hope it won´t be the obvious Mel-Kiss.

(...)

Entirely possible, and it's something I've considered. But, we've nothing to suggest dragonglass would lose its effectiveness against white walkers in Winter... And dragonsteel was wielded by the Last Hero, when the Others first came in the long night. That means he was dealing with the Ancient variety, before sacrifices were made to them from which they might create their neverborn white walker servants....

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

I didn´t want to suggest that dragonglass will lose it´s powers. Just that it could be very difficult to get close enough to these creatures to use dragonglass on them. Be it as blade or arrow. I somehow imagine the "cold-range" of them will increase. But this is obviously just a believe.

I think you are on to something with the Ancient variety. The 93 quote is very suggesting. (My first impulse was to write telling ;).)

And I really hope to see them riding ice spiders in future books. And now I will be disappointed if they won´t be able to climb the wall.

[Voice]

Don´t thank me.

I have to thank you for creating an interesting topic and moderating such a great discussion :).

And wow, you know these several thousand pages by heart do you? Amazing.

LOL thanks for the kind words! Truth be told, I've read these books more than a normal amount of times ;) And, I debated this theory for a year on the interwebs before formally writing it out as you see here. The release of the 1993 letter is what made me get off my ass and do it before someone else took credit for all my (then) crazy rants :D

The cowering fire:

I´ve forgotten Jons remark about the fire during the wedding. That´s cool stuff, I will check it out tomorrow. Thank you for pointing it out.

The prologue:

And I still think the prologue of GoT is the richest encounter we had so far. It has so much information webbed into. And the exact dialogue you cited feels creepier every time I read it...

I just stumbled onto this quote, later in the chapter cited at the end of this post...

“Tormund,” Jon said, as they watched four old women pull a cartful of children toward the gate, “tell me of our foe. I would know all there is to know of the Others.”

The wildling rubbed his mouth. “Not here,” he mumbled, “not this side o’ your Wall.” The old man glanced uneasily toward the trees in their white mantles. “They’re never far, you know. They won’t come out by day, not when that old sun’s shining, but don’t think that means they went away. Shadows never go away. Might be you don’t see them, but they’re always clinging to your heels.”

“Did they trouble you on your way south?”

“They never came in force, if that’s your meaning, but they were with us all the same, nibbling at our edges. We lost more outriders than I care to think about, and it was worth your life to fall behind or wander off. Every nightfall we’d ring our camps with fire. They don’t like fire much, and no mistake. When the snows came, though … snow and sleet and freezing rain, it’s bloody hard to find dry wood or get your kindling lit, and the cold … some nights our fires just seemed to shrivel up and die. Nights like that, you always find some dead come the morning. ’Less they find you first. The night that Torwynd … my boy, he …” Tormund turned his face away.

I should probably add this quote to the OP. Makes a strong case for my "weaponized cold."

Sam´s encounter with Ser Puddles is also great stuff.

And I think, that they do both, too: Coming in the cold and bringing cold with them.

They probably draw strength from the cold and I think this will make their ability to kill with cold even stronger.

As you say, winter is their natural habitat.

Could Sam have come as close to Ser Puddles in a true winter? And by winter I´m talking of the long night now. There is probably some magic involved with a long night that is lacking in a "normal" winter. We seem to be on the same page with this believe :).

Doubtful indeed. I get the feeling someone would almost have to be armored in fire itself to stand toe to toe with one of them....

Crackpot-time:

A Kiss from Mel seems the obvious choice in this scenario. The fiery kiss was already performed to give "life" in this story. I know, the show isn´t the best source. But I think there is significance in D&D hitting us with Mel´s knowledge about it. But perhaps we get some underdog performing a kiss? What about this lovely nights queen, that was already mentioned in this thread? I think there could be several possibilities. I actually hope it won´t be the obvious Mel-Kiss.

He may not need a kiss to awaken, since GRRM seems to strongly hint that he is alive in this interview:

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: So why did you kill Jon Snow?

GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: Oh, you think he’s dead, do you?

I didn´t want to suggest that dragonglass will lose it´s powers. Just that it could be very difficult to get close enough to these creatures to use dragonglass on them. Be it as blade or arrow. I somehow imagine the "cold-range" of them will increase. But this is obviously just a believe.

Makes sense. I think the cold is reserved for groups. As thus far, we've only seen it used on encampments of wildlings. But there's no telling.

Waymar and Will definitely noticed a sudden, extreme cold... in spite of the weeping Wall....

“Will, where are you?” Ser Waymar called up. “Can you see anything?” He was turning in a slow circle, suddenly wary, his sword in hand. He must have felt them, as Will felt them. There was nothing to see. “Answer me! Why is it so cold?”

It was cold. Shivering, Will clung more tightly to his perch. His face pressed hard against the trunk of the sentinel. He could feel the sweet, sticky sap on his cheek.

I think you are on to something with the Ancient variety. The 93 quote is very suggesting. (My first impulse was to write telling ;).)

And I really hope to see them riding ice spiders in future books. And now I will be disappointed if they won´t be able to climb the wall.

:cheers:

And never fear on the ice spiders. They're coming:

That night he dreamt of wildlings howling from the woods, advancing to the moan of warhorns and the roll of drums. Boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM came the sound, a thousand hearts with a single beat. Some had spears and some had bows and some had axes. Others rode on chariots made of bones, drawn by teams of dogs as big as ponies. Giants lumbered amongst them, forty feet tall, with mauls the size of oak trees.

“Stand fast,” Jon Snow called. “Throw them back.” He stood atop the Wall, alone. “Flame,” he cried, “feed them flame,” but there was no one to pay heed.

They are all gone. They have abandoned me.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. “Snow,” an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again.

[Mother of Dragons]

Who in their crazy mind wouldn't fear ice spiders, VoTFM?! I was just starting to think you were a reasonable person...;)

Do you have the bronze theory for dragonsteel because of the first men and Bran's vision? I think logically it makes sense if the 1st men used it, as they'd have to be ready for an attack from their natural enemies when they came down from the North. Bronze also looks like fire, so I'd associate it more with red priests.

But I like what someone posted here or on Heresy more about the meteorite/comet. We know there are lots of minerals found on meteorites, and this would make sense, except the fact it would be very rare.

I was going to say bronze is too soft, but so is obsidian. I have no idea which theory is right, I just assumed Valyrian steel, and figured Westeros was f*@!$ due to how rare it is. Maybe someone will figure it out though now that dragons are back and the ancient mysteries are coming back.

It's kind of like the Westerosi equivalent of the apocalypse, no? Makes you wonder if the rest of Planetos will be getting their taste, too.

[Durran Durrandon]

Who in their crazy mind wouldn't fear ice spiders, VoTFM?! I was just starting to think you were a reasonable person... ;)

Do you have the bronze theory for dragonsteel because of the first men and Bran's vision? I think logically it makes sense if the 1st men used it, as they'd have to be ready for an attack from their natural enemies when they came down from the North. Bronze also looks like fire, so I'd associate it more with red priests.

But I like what someone posted here or on Heresy more about the meteorite/comet. We know there are lots of minerals found on meteorites, and this would make sense, except the fact it would be very rare.

I was going to say bronze is too soft, but so is obsidian. I have no idea which theory is right, I just assumed Valyrian steel, and figured Westeros was f*@!$ due to how rare it is. Maybe someone will figure it out though now that dragons are back and the ancient mysteries are coming back.

It's kind of like the Westerosi equivalent of the apocalypse, no? Makes you wonder if the rest of Planetos will be getting their taste, too.

I liked bronze for a while. It is all over the Royce and Reed material. But then we have the Qartheen moon myth where a moon is described as being broken at apart by the sun and the fragments falling to earth. In the myth dragons poor forth from the moon and drink in the suns fire. Think of moon bits crashing to earth as meteorites. We already have one sword, Dawn being forged from a meteorite, so dragonsteel being meteorite metal seems to be a likely leap.

[LmL]

I hope to finish cleaning out my old house today and perhaps post part 3 on Friday or Saturday. I'm going to crawl out onto the flimsy branch of speculative pseudo-metalurgy to try to determine just what the magic swords were made out of (I think there were two). I believe each sword ultimately had 3 materials. I don't know that I have it totally perfect of course, but I'm going to get as close as I can in hopes of furthering the debate and perhaps arriving at the right answer. :)

Both swords made from "falling stars," but not the same ones or from the same source.

[Mother of Dragons]

I hope to finish cleaning out my old house today and perhaps post part 3 on Friday or Saturday. I'm going to crawl out onto the flimsy branch of speculative pseudo-metalurgy to try to determine just what the magic swords were made out of (I think there were two). I believe each sword ultimately had 3 materials. I don't know that I have it totally perfect of course, but I'm going to get as close as I can in hopes of furthering the debate and perhaps arriving at the right answer. :)

Both swords made from "falling stars," but not the same ones or from the same source.

I like meteorites, too, but it's impractical. Where can they get more before the white walking dead start walking south? Craters would have been mentioned by now I would think.

[Blazfemur]

I like meteorites, too, but it's impractical. Where can they get more before the white walking dead start walking south? Craters would have been mentioned by now I would think.

theres a big red one as we speak hurdling toward the earth :)

[Mother of Dragons]

LOL well, honestly, it started as a joke to tease Dany's fandom. But the more I thought about it, the more it started making sense. I think greyscale is the biological doom of Valyria. Something killed the dragons there and it wasn't volcanic activity. They are fire made flesh after all, that was their native habitat.

There is also Mel's desire to wake the "stone dragon" at "Dragonstone." So I asked myself, how can a dragon become stone? Well, dragons have scales. And if I had scales, I certainly wouldn't want to come into contact with a disease called greyscale. Greyscale turns men into stone. Why not dragons? Now we have Jon Connington hiding the disease in the Crownlands. So I think there's nice bittersweet recipe for disaster waiting for Dany and her dragons....

And that's how Stannis' daughter got greyscale at Dragonstone? I think I've read theories before that say the one she has (is her name Shiera?) Isn't the same as the one JonCon brought back. But Val doesn't seem to think so. It would still stand to reason as to why there wasn't an epidemic at Dragonstone. I was hoping she'd be on the show.

[Mother of Dragons]

theres a big red one as we speak hurdling toward the earth :)

The important question is, before or after GRRM is expected to finish?

[Blazfemur]

The important question is, before or after GRRM is expected to finish?

actually, thats how i see the wall coming down, and the Others to walk through it. that, or if its The Night's King, he's a member and can lead them through the gate

[LmL]

You might consider taking a glance at the first two essays in my signature, astronomy of planetos 1 and 2. Comets are covered in very great detail. :)