ElizabethB. Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Political assassinations in Russia are always pinned on disgruntled/extremist individuals from the Caucasus region..shocking revelation, that.Yeah that is standard, but worthy of attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Nice article from Der Spiegel about the competing interests in the West with regards to Ukraine and the disinformation and propaganda being used to try and undermine the peace initiative. Link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Furthering this logic, there should be democratic referendums in Chechnya, Dagestan, Ingushetia, Tatarstan et al who are clamoring for automony from the Motherland. But will Russia accede to this? Absolutely. Those regions SHOULD have the opportunity of a democratic referendum. Of course Russia wont allow that. But this doesnt change the fact that the right of self-determination is a great principal. What some here do not understand is that self-determination does not neccessarily mean independence but also includes autonomy or a federal structure in general. The way Russia approached the Crimea issue is absolutely not ok but this doesnt change the fact that the Crimeans should have the right for self-determination. The Ukrainian government will learn this lesson that only a federalisation will pacify the East. For example the German or US government cant oppose federalisation with a straight face as both those countries are built upon this principle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Nice article from Der Spiegel about the competing interests in the West with regards to Ukraine and the disinformation and propaganda being used to try and undermine the peace initiative. Link.I was referring to this earlier on with the question whether this issue has reached US news media. But as I am only a one-trick pony there is obviously no need by the likes of Shryke or Suttree to respond to that. It's enough to insult others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted March 8, 2015 Author Share Posted March 8, 2015 Iceman,Scot, can you make even one argument why this should be a problem within a liberal, humanist, democratic society?Without some formalized system or mechanism to formalize the change it is overly chaotic and almost inevitably leads to armed conflict between the formerly soveriegn state and the subdivision seeking secession. It's not that I don't think people should have a right to self-determination it's that the chaos that results tends to end up with a lot of dead bodies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Fixit Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 For example the German or US government cant oppose federalisation with a straight face as both those countries are built upon this principle. Problem is, they can oppose it! Major players support decentralisation, autonomy, and even the right to self-determination where and when it suits them. But when it doesn't, they don't. In Bosnia, for example, the "international community" has been trying to re-centralise the country and strip its constituent parts of as much autonomy as possible. The various local factions oppose this vehemently though, so it's neither here nor there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Fixit Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Nice article from Der Spiegel about the competing interests in the West with regards to Ukraine and the disinformation and propaganda being used to try and undermine the peace initiative. Link. An informative article. Thanks for the link. It was quiet in eastern Ukraine last Wednesday. Indeed, it was another quiet day in an extended stretch of relative calm. (...) On that same day, General Philip Breedlove, the top NATO commander in Europe, stepped before the press in Washington. Putin, the 59-year-old said, had once again "upped the ante" in eastern Ukraine -- with "well over a thousand combat vehicles, Russian combat forces, some of their most sophisticated air defense, battalions of artillery" having been sent to the Donbass. "What is clear," Breedlove said, "is that right now, it is not getting better. It is getting worse every day." German leaders in Berlin were stunned. They didn't understand what Breedlove was talking about. And it wasn't the first time. Once again, the German government, supported by intelligence gathered by the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), Germany's foreign intelligence agency, did not share the view of NATO's Supreme Allied Commander Europe (SACEUR). The pattern has become a familiar one. For months, Breedlove has been commenting on Russian activities in eastern Ukraine, speaking of troop advances on the border, the amassing of munitions and alleged columns of Russian tanks. Over and over again, Breedlove's numbers have been significantly higher than those in the possession of America's NATO allies in Europe. As such, he is playing directly into the hands of the hardliners in the US Congress and in NATO. The German government is alarmed. Are the Americans trying to thwart European efforts at mediation led by Chancellor Angela Merkel? Sources in the Chancellery have referred to Breedlove's comments as "dangerous propaganda." Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier even found it necessary recently to bring up Breedlove's comments with NATO General Secretary Jens Stoltenberg. ___________ And my personal favourite, being the butt of so many jokes on these boards: But Breedlove hasn't been the only source of friction. Europeans have also begun to see others as hindrances in their search for a diplomatic solution to the Ukraine conflict. First and foremost among them is Victoria Nuland, head of European affairs at the US State Department. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Iceman,Without some formalized system or mechanism to formalize the change it is overly chaotic and almost inevitably leads to armed conflict between the formerly soveriegn state and the subdivision seeking secession. It's not that I don't think people should have a right to self-determination it's that the chaos that results tends to end up with a lot of dead bodies.Fully agreed but what you describe are "technical" issues which can be overcome. Am I thus correct to assume that in principal you agree that the regions of the Ukraine should have had the right to at least to a certain degree govers themselves (= federal principle) if they want to do so? Honestly, a system where regional governors are appointed by the central authority is IMO intrinsically flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Problem is, they can oppose it! Major players support decentralisation, autonomy, and even the right to self-determination where and when it suits them. But when it doesn't, they don't. In Bosnia, for example, the "international community" has been trying to re-centralise the country and strip its constituent parts of as much autonomy as possible. The various local factions oppose this vehemently though, so it's neither here nor there.Of course they oppose it and they are highly hipocritical. The only way I have to "punish" those politicans is not voting for them at the next general election in 2017. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suttree Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Lol. "No no no, there isn't 40,000 Russian troops on the border, it's only 30,000!l!"@BBENow that we are this far along in the land grab has anyone actually opposed a legitimate vote with international observers as an end to the current situation? That said there is no realistic sequence of events which would lead to Russia allowing that to happen. It's a pipe dream. It's enough to insult others.Funny that you single out two posters when it has been numerous people across the board(including mods) who call you out on your bs. Even more ironic in that these people focus on your arguments while you start crying and go the personal attack route. Ride on pony. Ride on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Lol. "No no no, there isn't 40,000 Russian troops on the border, it's only 30,000!l!"Is it actually possible for you to have a serious discussion without ridiculing and insult others or their arguments? Do you actually want to discuss or refer to the Spiegel article? We do not have to agree but we can have a fruitful discussion like for example with Ser Scot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted March 8, 2015 Author Share Posted March 8, 2015 Arakan,But what control does the larger polity get to have. How is a proper polity to have indepenence defined? Should my neighborhood have the right to declare independence? I'm not asking sarcastically, I'm asking seriously. What is the point at which the soveriegn subdivision should stop and what say does a larger polity have over such a subdivision? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Fixit Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Lol. "No no no, there isn't 40,000 Russian troops on the border, it's only 30,000!l!" It would be smart to quote the entirety of the passage you referred to. Regarding General Breedlove's assertions on Russian military buildup for a possible invasion of Ukraine, German sources say this: There weren't 40,000 soldiers on the border, they believed, rather there were much less than 30,000 and perhaps even fewer than 20,000. Furthermore, most of the military equipment had not been brought to the border for a possible invasion, but had already been there prior to the beginning of the conflict. Furthermore, there was no evidence of logistical preparation for an invasion, such as a field headquarters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Even more ironic in that these people focus on your arguments while you start crying and go the personal attack route. Ride on pony. Ride on.Please don't be so rude. I am a human being and not a horse. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB. Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Is it actually possible for you to have a serious discussion without ridiculing and insult others or their arguments? Do you actually want to discuss or refer to the Spiegel article? We do not have to agree but we can have a fruitful discussion like for example with Ser Scot.omg :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Arakan,But what control does the larger polity get to have. How is a proper polity to have indepenence defined? Should my neighborhood have the right to declare independence? I'm not asking sarcastically, I'm asking seriously. What is the point at which the soveriegn subdivision should stop and what say does a larger polity have over such a subdivision?Those are justified questions and obviously not easy to answer. IMO a certain degree of sustainability is neccessary but as I said not an easy question. Just look at Kosovo for example which as a souvereign state is absolutely not sustainable (was big news in Germany lately due to ten thousands of refugee seekers from Kosovo). But one can state Germany or Spain post Franco as success stories and it seems the UK is going that route as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Fixit Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 A particularly interesting bit, one that informed people don't need Spiegel for: Berlin officials have noticed that, following the visit of American politicians or military leaders in Kiev, Ukrainian officials are much more bellicose and optimistic about the Ukrainian military's ability to win the conflict on the battlefield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Fixit Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Those are justified questions and obviously not easy to answer. IMO a certain degree of sustainability is neccessary but as I said not an easy question. Just look at Kosovo for example which as a souvereign state is absolutely not sustainable (was big news in Germany lately due to ten thousands of refugee seekers from Kosovo).But one can state Germany or Spain post Franco as success stories and it seems the UK is going that route as well. Regarding Kosovo, it should be noted the almost the entire top political establishment there has been linked to various war crimes, organ theft and trafficking, and similar illustrious activities. But it is OT, so I'll stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 My guess would be Russia's moderately successful exploitation of anti-american sentiment in Europe (and vice versa) in order to create a false equivalency to justify the war against Ukraine and keep NATO disunited on this issue. Negotiate with the europeans and mock them as being gay and weak appeasers while provoking the americans and painting them as simple-minded brutes. It generates amusingly petty debates like on this board but really only is concerning when the allied govs start to criticize each other openly in a similar manner as well. Which goes both ways, just to be clear, and makes me wonder whether deliberately misrepresenting the truth in public should have the same consequences for gov officials as infidelity or cheating in university. Ayup. You can see Arakan twisting his ass off with this kind of reasoning. Like trying to compare American Sniper to official government propaganda for no reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Furthering this logic, there should be democratic referendums in Chechnya, Dagestan, Ingushetia, Tatarstan et al who are clamoring for automony from the Motherland. But will Russia accede to this? Definitely. Is Putin a hypocrite? Definitely. Does that negate the right of the Crimeans to have a choice? No. Iceman,Without some formalized system or mechanism to formalize the change it is overly chaotic and almost inevitably leads to armed conflict between the formerly soveriegn state and the subdivision seeking secession. It's not that I don't think people should have a right to self-determination it's that the chaos that results tends to end up with a lot of dead bodies.Well, that armed conflict had already happened. Last years news. Well, two years already. Furthermore, working out such a mechanism would actually be worthwile. @BBENow that we are this far along in the land grab has anyone actually opposed a legitimate vote with international observers as an end to the current situation? That said there is no realistic sequence of events which would lead to Russia allowing that to happen. It's a pipe dream.Considering that the NATO speeches are all about "You've got no right to vote at all", not "that vote wasn't up to standards, you'll have to repeat it and this time we will send observers instead of declining when asked to"... I'm looking more toward Luhansk and Donezk with that particular approach anyway. Crimea is done in any case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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