Will Dany become mad?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Now I'm remembering why I blocked you before. Utter divorce from reality and then throw in repeating your old points without responding to what I've already said about them.

Oh thank you! It's a honor! But I cannot but wonder why you felt the need to answer to someone you have in your ignore list? Now you see I am not name calling or characterizing in any way people who disagree with me, mostly because I don't give a damn about who like me or who don't and who agree with me and who don't.

I have nothing to respond to what you said because I don't find any reason to try to have a serious conversation to anyone who claim that if someone don't like a character either haven't read the books or don't understand the character. It's that simple. Not everyone can see a character from the same PoV. From your POV Dany can be sane, from my POV Dany is on her road to insanity, from X's POV Dany can be I don't know what else.

Just to play the devil's advocat: In Stannis' case we have

1. failure to conform to social norms (forced conversions)

3. impulsivity or failure to plan ahead (that siege of Winterfell isn't going as planned, is it? Was there even a plan?)

4. irritability and aggressiveness (you find that part of Stannis' character charming. I don't).

5. reckless disregard for safety of self or others (siege of Winterfell again, helping his brother)

7. lack of remorse (show Stannis does show moments of remorse for the manner of Renly's death. Book Stannis, not so much).

And hey, I like Stannis, not quite as much as Dany, but I like him for all his faults and would never call him mad :)

1. If you look at Stannis' army you will see that it is the most culturally and religiously diverse group.

3. We haven't seen the siege of WF yet.

5. As ^ We haven't seen the siege of WF yet. Helping his brother what?

7. He had done nothing to be remorseful for. If you mean about Renly I will have to remind to you that he didn't knew what happened. He partially felt it after it happened.

;)

[Gargarax]

1. If you look at Stannis' army you will see that it is the most culturally and religiously diverse group.

3. We haven't seen the siege of WF yet.

5. As ^ We haven't seen the siege of WF yet. Helping his brother what?

7. He had done nothing to be remorseful for. If you mean about Renly I will have to remind to you that he didn't knew what happened. He partially felt it after it happened.

;)

1. Yes, he has Northeners with him whose weirwood trees still stand. Because Jon told him that respecting their religion was the only way to win their support. Stannis is good at showing tolerance where this is to his advantage, and intolerance where this is to his advantage.

3. So far, thousands have died and are dying. Yes, the snow surprised them, but keep marching when they saw this coming was foolish - brave, but foolish. Even if Stannis prevails somehow (and he wouldn't without the conspirators inside Winterfell), the casualties will be enormous. Remember Dany cleverly avoiding a siege to shed as little needless blood as necessary?

5. Stannis fled to Dragonstone when he had learnt the truth about Joffrey. Yes, Robert might not have listened to him. But he didn't even try. It may not be reckless disregard for others, but my main point here was basically that he fights his wars whatever the cost and however many of his troops die.

7. There is a huge debate on whether he didn't know. As a psychology expert, you must have heard of repression, and most of what Stannis says on Renly's death sounds a lot like repression. And yes, Stannis has a lot to be remorseful for. He made human sacrifices to achieve his goals. And don't say the end justifies the means - it was not a mad things to do, it was quite rational, but unethical by Westerosi standards as well as our own.

On the question of Dany's madness - I haven't read much in this thread to convince me she is even slightly mad. Considering she was brought up by somebody who was utterly mad, she's doing quite okay. Yes, she has made poor decision, yes she has made cruel decisions (by our standards, not those of her world), yes she has been a naive fool at times. But she is very young and was off to a far more difficult start than Joffrey, who also got too much power when he was too inexperienced. One of three things will happen to her: 1. She will go mad, because she fails in her mission to end slavery. 2. She will stay the person she is forever, thus becoming a Stannis with teats. 3. She will learn to control her emotions, think decisions through more, and become a rather decent queen.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

As a psychology expert,

Sorry but I have never claim that I am a psychology expert. If I have done it please point me where I have said it.

Only 2 and 3 are arguable, in her case.

And that is your opinion! (0:31)

[UnViserion]

We should be discussing Sansa's agency here. :drunk:

[TepidHands]

In Dany's case we have;

1. failure to conform to social norms.

2. deceitfulness.

3. impulsivity or failure to plan ahead

5. reckless disregard for safety of self or others.

6. consistent irresponsibility

7. lack of remorse.

Sounds like a teenager. And I'm thinking a typical one, not an orphaned, abused, sold-into-marriage, widowed and betrayed teenager.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Oh thank you! It's a honor! But I cannot but wonder why you felt the need to answer to someone you have in your ignore list? Now you see I am not name calling or characterizing in any way people who disagree with me, mostly because I don't give a damn about who like me or who don't and who agree with me and who don't.

I have nothing to respond to what you said because I don't find any reason to try to have a serious conversation to anyone who claim that if someone don't like a character either haven't read the books or don't understand the character. It's that simple. <- snip

;)

I answered you because a lot of other people were responding to you. Turns out that putting somebody on your ignore list doesn't really block them.

But what I said about you was that you simply repeat your prior arguments without responding to what I said about them at all. You consider that an honor?

Also your summary of why I said you appeared not to have read the books - "if someone don't like a character either haven't read the books or don't understand the character" - is strikingly inaccurate. What I said was that your were flatly and obviously wrong about all the points you made about the DSM. I pointed out in some detail why I thought you were wrong about each point and you never responded to any of that.

There are plenty of people on the forum who dislike Daenerys but make it obvious that they have at least some appreciation of her character. Several things you said, such as that she never learns from her experience or that she is callously unconcerned for the feelings of others, are so very, very far from what is in the books that - at least to me - they make the issue of whether you have read the books obvious enough to bring up.

This is not simply saying I think you haven't read or understood the books because you don't like Dany. If you think that is what my statements mean, it begins to explain to me how you came to some of your conclusions about how Dany matches the DSM for whichever ailment that was you were quoting symptoms for.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Also your summary of why I said you appeared not to have read the books - "if someone don't like a character either haven't read the books or don't understand the character" - is strikingly inaccurate. What I said was that your were flatly and obviously wrong about all the points you made about the DSM. I pointed out in some detail why I thought you were wrong about each point and you never responded to any of that.

Again that is your choice. Because it is your choice it doesn't mean that from my PoV your opinion is correct. What about this is so difficult to understand?

There are plenty of people on the forum who dislike Daenerys but make it obvious that they have at least some appreciation of her character. Several things you said, such as that she never learns from her experience or that she is callously unconcerned for the feelings of others, are so very, very far from what is in the books that - at least to me - they make the issue of whether you have read the books obvious enough to bring up.

AT LAST! You said it. For you! See? For you she might be great but for me, who isn't blinded from the fact that I like her, she is one of the more blah characters I have ever read about. As blah and annoying as Marianne Dashwood and Raskolnikov and she became that mostly after aGoT when I loved her and after the numerous rereads.

Sure I am here for almost 3 years and I haven't read the books.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Again that is your choice. Because it is your choice it doesn't mean that from my PoV your opinion is correct. What about this is so difficult to understand?

AT LAST! You said it. For you! See? For you she might be great but for me, who isn't blinded from the fact that I like her, she is one of the more blah characters I have ever read about. As blah and annoying as Marianne Dashwood and Raskolnikov and she became that mostly after aGoT when I loved her and after the numerous rereads.

Sure I am here for almost 3 years and I haven't read the books.

Like I said - you never actually respond to what I say. It's not my "choice" to think that Dany is introspective: she is introspective. Nor is it my "choice" to think that she is empathetic and will take action to prevent the pains of others: she very obviously does.

All "facts" are not equal to each other. Some truths are clear, and not to be compromised on. On the other hand, some statements are obviously false. I do not believe in equal opportunity for false facts.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Like I said - you never actually respond to what I say. It's not my "choice" to think that Dany is introspective: she is introspective. Nor is it my "choice" to think that she is empathetic and will take action to prevent the pains of others: she very obviously does.

All "facts" are not equal to each other. Some truths are clear, and not to be compromised on. On the other hand, some statements are obviously false. I do not believe in equal opportunity for false facts.

Respond to what? You only said "you are wrong" without obvs understanding about opinions.

Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead; Her whole storyline in SB. She destroys cities with no plan.

Reckless disregard for safety of self or others; Have you seen her action to ender the pyre?

Consistent irresponsibility; Again,her whole storyline in SB. She destroys cities with no plan.

Lack of remorse: Wine seller's daughters and those 12 yo who had to die because they wore tokars. Does she ever show any remorse for her desicion to punish the Meereenese nobility without seeking the truth?

[ummester]

Questioning whether you are insane and deciding you are not is not the same as being aware of your own insanity. "Crazy? I'm not crazy. You're the one that's crazy!"

Crazy people are often aware that people think they are crazy, it's not the same as being aware they are crazy because they just aren't convinced that their perceptions and feelings may not be accurate.

That's just crazy :D

But then, we're never going to survive, unless we get a little bit crazy...

Meh, the whole sane/insane thing is fairly subjective also and changes over time with human societies.

[Nictarion]

:lmao: You have more patience than I do Hodor's Dragon. I commend your attempts at a rational discussion in this thread. I think you've been spot on.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Respond to what? You only said "you are wrong" without obvs understanding about opinions.

Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead; Her whole storyline in SB. She destroys cities with no plan.

Reckless disregard for safety of self or others; Have you seen her action to ender the pyre?

Consistent irresponsibility; Again,her whole storyline in SB. She destroys cities with no plan.

Lack of remorse: Wine seller's daughters and those 12 yo who had to die because they wore tokars. Does she ever show any remorse for her desicion to punish the Meereenese nobility without seeking the truth?

Good, you're at least trying now instead of just cutting and pasting what you said before. But these are some thin points, not to mention that you have dropped several of your prior points without acknowledging that you've done so. You are covering ground that has been beaten over multiple times on this forum, and while you may disagree with her decisions, there were clearly rational explanations for all of her actions.

Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead; Her whole storyline in SB. She destroys cities with no plan.

No, she had a plan: end slavery. Please tell me about her chance to plan ahead in Slavers' Bay. I mean please: I have never heard about it before. At every turn she was confronted with stark choices about whether to act right now or do nothing. I have yet to hear any kind of alternate method of ending slavery that was available to Dany. She did what she could, and what she had to.

Reckless disregard for safety of self or others; Have you seen her action to ender the pyre?

You know, I've never walked into a pyre myself, and I'm not really likely ever to do so. But Dany was guided by dreams, visions and portents. GRRM himself has said that she knew what she was doing and it was a type of magic. It did work, you know. And everything that Dany has done would not have been possible otherwise. It was her destiny to enter the pyre. Not insanity.

Consistent irresponsibility; Again,her whole storyline in SB. She destroys cities with no plan.

Above.

Lack of remorse: Wine seller's daughters and those 12 yo who had to die because they wore tokars. Does she ever show any remorse for her desicion to punish the Meereenese nobility without seeking the truth?

I'm not going to look up the cite, but yes, she showed remorse for crucifying the 163. She analyzed whether it was right or wrong several times. Of course, she was too busy to spend all day on it.

There is zero evidence in the books that any 12-year-olds died because they wore tokars. Zero. Her orders can be micro-analyzed into an interpretation that could authorize their killing, but I really don't think GRRM intended that. If he had intended that, some character would've mentioned it later, but it NEVER gets mentioned in the books. Even when her enemies are telling all kinds of lies about her and exaggerating everything she has done that could have a bad interpretation, somehow they forgot to mention her slaughter of children in Astapor. Wouldn't you think that one would lead the hit parade? So I think the good answer is that Dany never felt remorse for that because it never occurred to her and it never happened. I usually don't feel remorse for things like that, either.

[Hodor's Dragon]

:lmao: You have more patience than I do Hodor's Dragon. I commend your attempts at a rational discussion in this thread. I think you've been spot on.

Thank you, sir or madam. You know, I don't spend that much time on this forum any more. I don't come unless at all unless I feel energetic enough to properly participate. Crap like this is what drove me (mostly) away, so I really only come back to battle it.

But even battle - battle over words and fiction, anyway - should be rational, and I shoot for that. So thanks again.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

No, she had a plan: end slavery.

That is a dream not a plan. Plan is knowing what to do in order to achive your dream. She thinks that because she conquered those cities she somehow ended slavery. Bad new Dany you only made it worse.

Reckless disregard for safety of self or others; Have you seen her action to ender the pyre?

You know, I've never walked into a pyre myself, and I'm not really likely ever to do so. But Dany was guided by dreams, visions and portents. GRRM himself has said that she knew what she was doing and it was a type of magic. It did work, you know. And everything that Dany has done would not have been possible otherwise. It was her destiny to enter the pyre. Not insanity.

So believing visions aka believing hallucinations in sane?

Consistent irresponsibility; Again,her whole storyline in SB. She destroys cities with no plan.

Above.

Yet again; That is a dream not a plan. Plan is knowing what to do in order to achive your dream. She thinks that because she conquered those cities she somehow ended slavery. Bad new Dany you only made it worse.

the Meereenese nobility without seeking the truth?

I'm not going to look up the cite, but yes, she showed remorse for crucifying the 163. She analyzed whether it was right or wrong several times. Of course, she was too busy to spend all day on it.

There is zero evidence in the books that any 12-year-olds died because they wore tokars. Zero. Her orders can be micro-analyzed into an interpretation that could authorize their killing, but I really don't think GRRM intended that. If he had intended that, some character would've mentioned it later, but it NEVER gets mentioned in the books. Even when her enemies are telling all kinds of lies about her and exaggerating everything she has done that could have a bad interpretation, somehow they forgot to mention her slaughter of children in Astapor. Wouldn't you think that one would lead the hit parade? So I think the good answer is that Dany never felt remorse for that because it never occurred to her and it never happened. I usually don't feel remorse for things like that, either.

No matter if they died or not.She did ordered their death.I love how people keep nagging about Robert ordering the death of Dany something that at the end cancelled and when Dany ordered 12 yo KIDS because they wore tokars is not big deal.

Well here is 2 in the morning and after more than week I feel that I need to sleep. For someone who has difficulty sleeping it is very nice to finally feel like that. So thank you for helping me! :cheers:

[Hodor's Dragon]

That is a dream not a plan. Plan is knowing what to do in order to achive your dream. She thinks that because she conquered those cities she somehow ended slavery. Bad new Dany you only made it worse.

So believing visions aka believing hallucinations in sane?

Yet again; That is a dream not a plan. Plan is knowing what to do in order to achive your dream. She thinks that because she conquered those cities she somehow ended slavery. Bad new Dany you only made it worse.

No matter if they died or not.She did ordered their death.I love how people keep nagging about Robert ordering the death of Dany something that at the end cancelled and when Dany ordered 12 yo KIDS because they wore tokars is not big deal.

Well here is 2 in the morning and after more than week I feel that I need to sleep. For someone who has difficulty sleeping it is very nice to finally feel like that. So thank you for helping me! :cheers:

I'll drink to that. :cheers:

[ummester]

But even battle - battle over words and fiction, anyway - should be rational, and I shoot for that. So thanks again.

But, this debate being waged re Dany (and I'm not on either side) is more emotional than rational.

It's the way when people debate any of the ASoIaF characters, really, but around Dany it does seem most intense - and I think GRRM has deliberately crafted her that way.

For a character debate to be entirely rational it needs to remain objective - pure cause and effect, action and reaction. As soon as motives are discussed, objectivity starts to be lost.

[teej6]

To answer the OP, I don't think Dany is mad, at least, not yet. Dany feels entitled to the IT although she has no understanding of Westeros, its people, or its cultures. And, more importantly, she does not make any attempt to learn. How is her conquering Westeros any different from her conquering Mereen? She knows as much about Westeros as she knew about Mereen. And we all know how her conquest of Mereen turned out. If she means to march her Dothraki, unsullied, and sell swords into Westeros, I doubt she's going to be liked in Westeros (by nobles and commons) anymore than she was in Mereen. Dany also suffers from a warped, cruel, and hypocritical sense of justice and has delusions of grandeur and self importance. This is a long-winded way of saying that Dany is not presently mad but with her tyrannical my way or the high way attitude, she may be perceived as mad (especially considering she's the mad king's daughter) by many in Westeros.

[Hodor's Dragon]

But, this debate being waged re Dany (and I'm not on either side) is more emotional than rational.

It's the way when people debate any of the ASoIaF characters, really, but around Dany it does seem most intense - and I think GRRM has deliberately crafted her that way.

For a character debate to be entirely rational it needs to remain objective - pure cause and effect, action and reaction. As soon as motives are discussed, objectivity starts to be lost.

I never said I was always rational. I just said I try.

I'm a big fan of Dany, I think she's a great character and very lovable. I don't pretend to be neutral, and I'm sure my bias creeps in to my statements. But for the record, I do make an effort to be rational and to base my statements on rationality, not emotion, and while I don't claim to be 100% successful, I think I do a decent job. I try not to say anything silly in support of Dany, and I think I mostly succeed at that.

Others may disagree with that assessment. . . .

[ummester]

I never said I was always rational. I just said I try.

I'm a big fan of Dany, I think she's a great character and very lovable. I don't pretend to be neutral, and I'm sure my bias creeps in to my statements. But for the record, I do make an effort to be rational and to base my statements on rationality, not emotion, and while I don't claim to be 100% successful, I think I do a decent job. I try not to say anything silly in support of Dany, and I think I mostly succeed at that.

Others may disagree with that assessment. . . .

Well, I think she is a well written character for generating reader involvement and emotional investment.

I think if I knew here in real life now, her idealism and entitlement would annoy me. If I knew her when I was younger, I would have been smitten and acted exactly like Daario. And that a written character can generate either of those emotional responses from me is a good thing.

[Anythingatall]

That is a dream not a plan. Plan is knowing what to do in order to achive your dream. She thinks that because she conquered those cities she somehow ended slavery. Bad new Dany you only made it worse.

In what way is it worse? How are we measuring it? It certainly seems more chaotic and the future is less certain but those things on their own don't make it worse.

So believing visions aka believing hallucinations in sane?

She lives in a world where magic is fact. I don't think believing in Quaithes babble is a good idea for any number of reasons but we can't judge it the way we would in the real world because we don't have magic.

As a general comment - These threads really depress me, the general ignorance regarding mental health is shocking.