Will Dany become mad?

[Lord Varys]

Well, the Starks do not matter politically, or do they? And the assumption that they first demand to know each other's interpretation of the War of the Usurper before they enter into an alliance (or not) makes no sense at all. Could be that some Stark survivors will back Stannis - if he is still alive by then. Then they will be enemies. But not because of the things Ned did sixteen years ago.

Great Masters:

We know that a Pahl was amongst those crucified (or more than one?), and the Pahls supposedly were amongst the big fish in the Meereenese pond prior to Dany's arrival. I'd also not be betting that the really powerful/guilty guys got away. Usually, when threatened to be crucified people tend to break and point out the really guilty ones rather than offering to give themselves up - especially not in such an uncertain environment in which Daenerys could still decide to dispossess/enslave all the Great Masters, rendering a potential promise of the more powerful to look after the families of those who gave them up null and void.

Dany really seems to have rid the city of the cream of the Great Masters, as there are simply not many of them left. The new leaders of the elite aren't core members of the old guard - Hizdahr zo Loraq has an impeccable bloodline, but he does not seem to have been in the midst of things before Dany came, and the Green Grace is the high priestess who seems to have filled the void left by the crucification (the Galares aren't top notch nobility, either). Skahaz is a new man, and Reznak apparently of middle-class nobility.

Mikkel,

I'm not sure if Dany is to be fully blamed for her lack of knowledge about her parents. Selmy actively tries to shield her from Aerys' madness, and they never had an opportunity for a thorough history lesson. Barristan casually defends Eddard Stark, but since apparently nobody has ever told Dany the details of the Stark involvement in the Rebellion, she doesn't know why she should like that guy. Not to mention that the picture Jorah painted of Ned wasn't all that good, either.

Overall, I expect Aegon to completely steal Dany's thunder, rallying all the remaining Targaryen loyalists behind himself. That should make it very difficult for Dany to find allies in Westeros, especially if she shows up with Ironborn. But this could mean that she'll be able to make surprising allies - Lannisters (not Jaime or Cersei) and Westermen, for example, who do not like Aegon's regime in KL. Whether she'll have the Vale/Sansa will depend on what they are going to do. If they ally themselves with Aegon, he'll have them. If they stay out of the coming war again, she'll might get them.

My personal guess is that Oldtown will join Dany rather than Aegon (or fight against her), as Sam and Sarella are there, believing that Dany is the promised princess. They will ensure that Lord Leyton saves his strength for her - and Marwyn should convince her to reach out to the Citadel as well.

But in the end it really does not matter. Dany will be powerful to invade Westeros without Westerosi allies, and thus she simply will go through with it, no matter if the odds are for or against her.

[Mithras]

My personal guess is that Oldtown will join Dany rather than Aegon (or fight against her), as Sam and Sarella are there, believing that Dany is the promised princess. They will ensure that Lord Leyton saves his strength for her - and Marwyn should convince her to reach out to the Citadel as well.

:rolleyes:

How can Sam and Sarella have any effect in which side the Hightowers will support? Marwyn will convince her to wipe out the grey sheep.

[khal drogon]

There was no investigation of any sort mentioned or even hinted at in the text. Everything suggests they were arbitrarily chosen to make up the numbers, so that Dany can feel good about herself. It's enough to make even the master of self-delusion herself frown, but then the ever-valid "for the children" reasoning kicks in and it's all good.

Newsflash: The children are dead already. They don't need atrocities committed in their name. You can't do anything "for the children", it's much too late for that. Dany needed it done, because she was angry - because her actions led to the death of all those children, and she needed someone to blame. That is all there is to it. Later on she almost realizes what a load of crap this kind of justice is, almost being the operative word. Note that I'm not saying Dany is to blame for the children's deaths, of course she isn't, but that's still what it is about.

Can you explain how her actions led to the death of the children?

[Lord Varys]

Mithras,

come on, you have read the books. The Hightowers - especially Lord Leyton and the Maid Maid - are into magic. They may already know what is going on at the Wall, and if not, then Sam and Sarella will reach out to them once they learn that Oldtown is about to join the false savior.

Not to mention that the Hightowers don't have the strength to support Aegon militarily while the Ironborn threat is not resolved. Aegon has no reason to risk his troops crossing the Reach while he has not yet taken KL.

[Mithras]

Mithras,

come on, you have read the books. The Hightowers - especially Lord Leyton and the Maid Maid - are into magic. They may already know what is going on at the Wall, and if not, then Sam and Sarella will reach out to them once they learn that Oldtown is about to join the false savior.

Not to mention that the Hightowers don't have the strength to support Aegon militarily while the Ironborn threat is not resolved. Aegon has no reason to risk his troops crossing the Reach while he has not yet taken KL.

If they are into magic, they might well know that Dany is the false savior.

Both Mel and BR are deep into magic but they support different saviors.

The ironborn threat will be resolved when Euron attacks Oldtown and gets his ass-kicked by fAegon.

[OldGimletEye]

Well, the Starks do not matter politically, or do they? And the assumption that they first demand to know each other's interpretation of the War of the Usurper before they enter into an alliance (or not) makes no sense at all. Could be that some Stark survivors will back Stannis - if he is still alive by then. Then they will be enemies. But not because of the things Ned did sixteen years ago.

You think the Starks are going to enter into alliance with Dany, if she takes the position that Ned's actions were illegitimate? Even, if Dany were to suggest that she was going to pardon Ned, that would be damn insulting. I could see Dany offering a pardon, thinking that she was being magnanimous, without the slightest clue how insulting her "pardon" would be.

I'm not sure if Dany is to be fully blamed for her lack of knowledge about her parents. Selmy actively tries to shield her from Aerys' madness, and they never had an opportunity for a thorough history lesson. Barristan casually defends Eddard Stark, but since apparently nobody has ever told Dany the details of the Stark involvement in the Rebellion, she doesn't know why she should like that guy. Not to mention that the picture Jorah painted of Ned wasn't all that good, either.

It's not Barristan's job to force feed Dany information. Nor is it Jorah's. Both Barristan and Jorah know the details of RR. It's on Dany for not asking. Jorah at one point, I think it's in ACOK, mentions something about Ned's honor. The quip by Jorah doesn't pique Dany's interest in the slightest. Dany is a queen and a military leader. It's her job to seek out information. If she doesn't want information, then that is not on her subordinates. Dany's lack of aggressive information gathering is one of her biggest problems as a leader.

[Lord Varys]

Again, about what Starks are we talking about here? Bran is a tree, Rickon is a child which will be led around by the nose by Lord Manderly, Arya is a political non-entity, and Sansa will hopefully do what suits her best. Being a girl which has gone through roughly the same things as she herself, Dany should be able to relate to her (and Sansa as well).

Didn't Dany say in ASoS that she actually wants to hear everything there is from Barristan? If he lives long enough to see her again she may ask. And Tyrion will tell her truth whether she asks for it or not.

We don't even know whether Dany knows what Aerys has done to Rickard and Brandon. If she does not know that, she cannot really have a good picture of Ned, as he would then have rebelled against her father without a good cause.

Mithras,

not sure how anyone could think that Dany is a false savior. But even if she was, she would be a much better false savior as Aegon who does not have any dragons.

And you really believe Aegon will march to Oldtown and defeat Euron without any ships? That's really ridiculous. Why should he even care about the Hightowers?

[Mikkel]

Can you explain how her actions led to the death of the children?

Sure. Dany marched on Meereen, someone (presumably the Masters) ordered the children crucified. Again, note that I never said Dany were to blame for it, just that her actions undeniably caused the death of the children, and Dany knows it.

[OldGimletEye]

Again, about what Starks are we talking about here? Bran is a tree, Rickon is a child which will be led around by the nose by Lord Manderly, Arya is a political non-entity, and Sansa will hopefully do what suits her best. Being a girl which has gone through roughly the same things as she herself, Dany should be able to relate to her (and Sansa as well).

I'm not so sure if Rickon will be led around the nose by Manderly. I think there is a good chance that Jon will be the defacto leader of the North. And even if Manderly does become regent, do you think he's going to let Dany refer to Ned as "Usuper Dog" and suggest the entire North were nothing but a bunch of dirty rebels? How many Northern lords are going to go for that?

Didn't Dany say in ASoS that she actually wants to hear everything there is from Barristan? If he lives long enough to see her again she may ask. And Tyrion will tell her truth whether she asks for it or not.

Words are wind. She certainly has taken her sweet old time. Also, even if does learn about RR, she might still believe that the Rebels actions were largely illegitimate.

[Mikkel]

Didn't Dany say in ASoS that she actually wants to hear everything there is from Barristan? If he lives long enough to see her again she may ask. And Tyrion will tell her truth whether she asks for it or not.

Yes. In ASoS. Which is... quite a while ago. She also actively stopped Barristan telling her, because at that time she didn't feel like hearing it. Then nothing after that. The fact of the matter is, Dany has had plenty of opportunities, from one of if not the prime inside source on Aerys and the Rebellion, and yet she has taken steps to not learn from him.

[Lord Varys]

Well, if she wants to sit the Iron Throne she cannot (and should not) talk about legitimate rebellion.

The point of that was that the Starks are children. They won't lead anyone. And Jon should actually support Daenerys if he learns about his own heritage by then. He would be about as closely related to Daenerys as to his Stark cousins. And my personal guess is that Jon will be extremely pissed about Ned and the way he treated him, making him believe he was a bastard rather than the rightful king/true heir. This could, in part, even extend to his living Stark relatives.

The boy is still fifteen, after all.

And what Dany is believing privately about the Northmen does not matter. She should better not proclaim that the Starks have been traitors if she wants their allegiance, but I imagine she'll treat them how she sees fit. If she needs them, she'll ask them, if not she'll demand that they submit like Aegon I did. They are, with the possible exception of Sansa, not exactly in a shape to threaten her ascension to the Iron Throne.

[kimim]

Sure. Dany marched on Meereen, someone (presumably the Masters) ordered the children crucified. Again, note that I never said Dany were to blame for it, just that her actions undeniably caused the death of the children, and Dany knows it.

...but Dany had no way of knowing that the slavers would crucify children in response to her appearance, so she can't be blamed for that. She did kill every slaver over 12 in Astapor, so she can be blamed for the deaths of children 13, 14, whatever. In that culture, 13 year olds are seen as adults, but not consistently. Ned is outraged at Robert ordering Dany's killing, and I think at that point, she is 13. Karstark kills the two squires held by Robb, and part of the problem is that they're very young, possibly 13 or 14.

I'm not so sure if Rickon will be led around the nose by Manderly. I think there is a good chance that Jon will be the defacto leader of the North. And even if Manderly does become regent, do you think he's going to let Dany refer to Ned as "Usuper Dog" and suggest the entire North were nothing but a bunch of dirty rebels? How many Northern lords are going to go for that?

Words are wind. She certainly has taken her sweet old time.

ita Starks have great potential, so dismissing them is a mistake

Dany is Martin's amethyst-eyed girl, so I doubt that she will be unable to understand why the rebellion happened, once she finally hears about it from someone she trusts.

[Mithras]

Mithras,

not sure how anyone could think that Dany is a false savior. But even if she was, she would be a much better false savior as Aegon who does not have any dragons.

Perhaps Aegon has to take the dragons from her according to them.

And you really believe Aegon will march to Oldtown and defeat Euron without any ships? That's really ridiculous. Why should he even care about the Hightowers?

Fighting against the ironborn speaks well for PR. That is what Jon told Stannis to do. And Bolton was doing the same Varys knows the power of the Faith and what better way to gain he favor of the Faith than defending the once-secter of the Faith?

[Northbound3.0]

The point of that was that the Starks are children. They won't lead anyone. And Jon should actually support Daenerys if he learns about his own heritage by then. He would be about as closely related to Daenerys as to his Stark cousins. And my personal guess is that Jon will be extremely pissed about Ned and the way he treated him, making him believe he was a bastard rather than the rightful king/true heir. This could, in part, even extend to his living Stark relatives.

Wow! We really need one of those Emo characters, with an exploding head!

How, within the same paragraph, can you say that Jon should support Dany and that he is/was the rightful king/heir? Then to further suggest, that Jon would side over his "cousins," for Dany. Mind=Blown!

As for the OP question. I doubt Dany is mad or will be mad. But depending on what side of fence you are on; she maybe seen as an enemy to some in Westeros.

[El Guapo]

Yes. In ASoS. Which is... quite a while ago. She also actively stopped Barristan telling her, because at that time she didn't feel like hearing it. Then nothing after that. The fact of the matter is, Dany has had plenty of opportunities, from one of if not the prime inside source on Aerys and the Rebellion, and yet she has taken steps to not learn from him.

Not true at all, in ADWD she told Barristan to tell her everything about her father the good and the bad. Then they were interrupted because for wahtever reason GRRM has decided that Tyrion is going to tell her all about the past.

[Mithras]

I'm not so sure if Rickon will be led around the nose by Manderly. I think there is a good chance that Jon will be the defacto leader of the North. And even if Manderly does become regent, do you think he's going to let Dany refer to Ned as "Usuper Dog" and suggest the entire North were nothing but a bunch of dirty rebels? How many Northern lords are going to go for that?

We know his reaction to a similar event.

“They say?” Rhaegar Frey sported a silky beard and a sardonic smile. “His enemies say, aye … but it was the Young Wolf who was the monster. More beast than boy, that one, puffed up with pride and bloodlust. And he was faithless, as my lord grandfather learned to his sorrow.” He spread his hands. “I do not fault White Harbor for supporting him. My grandsire made the same grievous mistake. In all the Young Wolf’s battles, White Harbor and the Twins fought side by side beneath his banners. Robb Stark betrayed us all. He abandoned the north to the cruel mercies of the ironmen to carve out a fairer kingdom for himself along the Trident. Then he abandoned the riverlords who had risked much and more for him, breaking his marriage pact with my grandfather to wed the first western wench who caught his eye. The Young Wolf? He was a vile dog and died like one.”

The Merman’s Court had grown still. Davos could feel the chill in the air. Lord Wyman was looking down at Rhaegar as if he were a roach in need of a hard heel … yet then, abruptly, he gave a ponderous nod that set his chins to wobbling. “A dog, aye. He brought us only grief and death. A vile dog indeed. Say on.”

Rhaegar Frey went on. “Grief and death, aye … and this onion lord will bring you more with his talk of vengeance. Open your eyes, as my lord grandsire did. The War of the Five Kings is all but done. Tommen is our king, our only king. We must help him bind up the wounds of this sad war. As Robert’s trueborn son, the heir of stag and lion, the Iron Throne is his by rights.”

“Wise words, and true,” said Lord Wyman Manderly.

And the rest is the best pies you've ever had.

[Mithras]

...but Dany had no way of knowing that the slavers would crucify children in response to her appearance, so she can't be blamed for that. She did kill every slaver over 12 in Astapor, so she can be blamed for the deaths of children 13, 14, whatever. In that culture, 13 year olds are seen as adults, but not consistently. Ned is outraged at Robert ordering Dany's killing, and I think at that point, she is 13. Karstark kills the two squires held by Robb, and part of the problem is that they're very young, possibly 13 or 14.

Dany did everything to convince Drogo to start his conquest of Westeros. She saw the results of her desire in MMD's village.

[Mithras]

Not true at all, in ADWD she told Barristan to tell her everything about her father the good and the bad. Then they were interrupted because for wahtever reason GRRM has decided that Tyrion is going to tell her all about the past.

Wishful thinking.

[Mithras]

Well, if she wants to sit the Iron Throne she cannot (and should not) talk about legitimate rebellion.

The point of that was that the Starks are children. They won't lead anyone. And Jon should actually support Daenerys if he learns about his own heritage by then. He would be about as closely related to Daenerys as to his Stark cousins. And my personal guess is that Jon will be extremely pissed about Ned and the way he treated him, making him believe he was a bastard rather than the rightful king/true heir. This could, in part, even extend to his living Stark relatives.

Lol. Jon did the same thing to Mance's kid. Jon is not a hypocrite like Dany, so I don't see it happening.

[Northbound3.0]

Then they were interrupted because for wahtever reason GRRM has decided that Tyrion is going to tell her all about the past.

I believe this as well. Im guessing it would be because the scene between Dany/Tyrion, would be far better than Dany/Selmy. No doubt, she learns about the past. I just can't wait to she what she does with it.