Ukraine 17: I really wanted to use the "Where's Putin" subtitle, dang it.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Mr. Fixit,

Saying I don't trust the Russian Government because it lies is hardly moving the goalposts.

[snake]

It seems that Yanukovich was not that wrong to flee Ukraine and being pro-Russian is apparently very bad for ones health. Was there any wide spread condemnation of these murders? Or is the work of one devious and evil Vladimir Putin??

Story

[The Fallen]

With regards to Russia's mind games, their aim is to muddy the waters enough so that no information can be deemed trustworthy. And they use their state-run news and bot armies to do it. It isn't about propaganda, per say. I can't recall any other government trying something similar.

[Dofs]

I have read a lot of Ukrainian sources, forums, commentaries, etc. and I can say that the hate of Russians an anything pro-Russian is strong one there, and this hate is fueled a lot by anti-Russian propaganda in the Ukrainian media, who straight up make up bullshit stories just to vilify Russia more. That's an understandable tactic to rally the divided population against the invading army, considering that a huge percentage of the population are this invading country's sympathizers, but it really leads to things like pro-Russian journalists being persecuted and outright killed and other nasty stuff, unfortunately.

[Shryke]

But this is precisely the beauty of it: if they get it right, it looks like this is simply how the media must be and there is no other way. It's not true though. The American media has a consensus version of nearly all foreign affairs on top of which they then build partisan variations (i.e. Fox spins it one way and MSNBC goes another way). The partisan spin is independent, but the underlying consensus is carefully crafted with a thorough understanding of how the giant oligopolistic conglomerates we call "the media" work.

The underlying consensus isn't crafted though. That's the point. No one is behind it all.

The government says X, various other groups say Y, the media decides on Z based on a variety of factors.

Of course not, but what does it matter? Propaganda is never expected to convince absolutely everyone. Enough people were convinced of the original lie to start the war and enough people went along with the pivot in rationale to get G.W. Bush re-elected in 2004. The propaganda campaign was extremely well executed and accomplished its goals (it's too bad the goals were so stupid, but that's another story).

Yes, but it was executed by the government, not the government-as-media.

[Shryke]

It seems that Yanukovich was not that wrong to flee Ukraine and being pro-Russian is apparently very bad for ones health. Was there any wide spread condemnation of these murders? Or is the work of one devious and evil Vladimir Putin??

Story

Lemme get some nails for your cross, hold on.

[snake]

Lmao. That was a weird reply. Have you been drinking?? :P

[Shryke]

Lmao. That was a weird reply. Have you been drinking?? :P

No, but your post makes a whole bunch of assumptions in order to try and paint yourself as the lone and long victimized voice of reason for no goddamn reason.

You should cut that shit out, it's tiring.

[Mr Fixit]

It seems that Yanukovich was not that wrong to flee Ukraine and being pro-Russian is apparently very bad for ones health. Was there any wide spread condemnation of these murders? Or is the work of one devious and evil Vladimir Putin??

Story

Of course not. It's only Evil Vlad's crimes that are worth widespread condemnation. Didn't you know?

[Mr Fixit]

An interesting article on BBC's website.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32341840

In the last three months, at least 10 people who served in his [Yanukovich's] government or in his Party of Regions (POR), or had connections to people who were, have met premature ends either by being murdered or reportedly committing suicide.

1. Oleh Kalashnikov, MP of Party of Regions (POR), gunshot, presumed murder

2. Olexiy Kolesnyk, former governor of Kharkiv region, hanged

3. Stanislav Melnyk, gunshot, possible suicide, POR member

4. Serhiy Valter, former mayor of Melitopol, hanged

5. Olexandr Bordiuh, deputy chief of Melitopol police, found dead, "hypertension"

6. Olexander Peklushenko, former governor of Zaporizhia region, gunshot

7. Mykhailo Chechetov, former POR deputy chairman, jumped to death

8. Serhiy Melnychuk, former Odesa prosecutor, pushed/fell/jumped to death

9. Mykola Serhiyenko, former first deputy chief of Ukrainian railroads, gunshot

10. Oles Buzyna, a very provocative pro-Russian journalist and writer, gunshot

Ah, the sweet smell of democracy in the morning.

[Horza]

That's one response to that story, I guess.

[Arakan]

An interesting article on BBC's website.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32341840

In the last three months, at least 10 people who served in his [Yanukovich's] government or in his Party of Regions (POR), or had connections to people who were, have met premature ends either by being murdered or reportedly committing suicide.

1. Oleh Kalashnikov, MP of Party of Regions (POR), gunshot, presumed murder

2. Olexiy Kolesnyk, former governor of Kharkiv region, hanged

3. Stanislav Melnyk, gunshot, possible suicide, POR member

4. Serhiy Valter, former mayor of Melitopol, hanged

5. Olexandr Bordiuh, deputy chief of Melitopol police, found dead, "hypertension"

6. Olexander Peklushenko, former governor of Zaporizhia region, gunshot

7. Mykhailo Chechetov, former POR deputy chairman, jumped to death

8. Serhiy Melnychuk, former Odesa prosecutor, pushed/fell/jumped to death

9. Mykola Serhiyenko, former first deputy chief of Ukrainian railroads, gunshot

10. Oles Buzyna, a very provocative pro-Russian journalist and writer, gunshot

Ah, the sweet smell of democracy in the morning.

Wow...

But I am not surprised that Shryke simply ignores this very disgusting site about the new Ukraine government, not surprised at all.

[Mr Fixit]

Scores of political assassinations, political parties banned, glorifying Nazi collaborators in WW2, installing members of what, until relatively recently, used to be called Social-National Party of Ukraine to high government positions. Among military personnel to be trained by US soldiers in west Ukraine are members of the Azov battalion, whose leader is this guy - photo from 2008. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector#/media/File:Second_Congress_of_the_Patriots_of_Ukraine,_Kharkov,_April_12,_2008.jpg

Rejoice!

[Horza]

Yeah, would be nice if that could all be fixed. Neither side's descent into glorification of bloodsoaked 20th century antecedents is good news. As long as Russia keeps using the breakaway republics and other parties behind the lines as leverage, I don't see how it gets reversed though.

[Shryke]

Wow...

But I am not surprised that Shryke simply ignores this very disgusting site about the new Ukraine government, not surprised at all.

I am not at all surprised that you jumped straight to attacking me over something I did not do. You have yet to let facts, or even HISTORICAL FACTS, get in the way of spewing shit.

[Shryke]

Yeah, would be nice if that could all be fixed. Neither side's descent into glorification of bloodsoaked 20th century antecedents is good news. As long as Russia keeps using the breakaway republics and other parties behind the lines as leverage, I don't see how it gets reversed though.

Pretty much.

The Ukrainian government was never uncorrupt at the best of times and the whole war Russia is propping up is leading to them leaning on some not particularly savoury characters for support.

[Arakan]

I am not at all surprised that you jumped straight to attacking me over something I did not do. You have yet to let facts, or even HISTORICAL FACTS, get in the way of spewing shit.

Let me see...

snake:

It seems that Yanukovich was not that wrong to flee Ukraine and being pro-Russian is apparently very bad for ones health. Was there any wide spread condemnation of these murders? Or is the work of one devious and evil Vladimir Putin??

Shryke's response (to quite a serious issue): lemme get some nails for your cross, hold on

But nevermind and never change :)

[Shryke]

Let me see...

snake:

It seems that Yanukovich was not that wrong to flee Ukraine and being pro-Russian is apparently very bad for ones health. Was there any wide spread condemnation of these murders? Or is the work of one devious and evil Vladimir Putin??

Shryke's response (to quite a serious issue): lemme get some nails for your cross, hold on

But nevermind and never change :)

Uh Arakan, you realise the point of my comment is that nobody is defending these political assassinations and so I'm asking Snake to stop pretending like people in this thread are so he can play the martyr? I am literally saying the opposite of what you are claiming. But you just like to think I am because you want to attack me, despite your inability to articulate a coherent argument or understand what other people are saying.

Like dude, if you can't hack basic reading comprehension, you are going to continue to have problems with this whole writing thing.

[snake]

No, but your post makes a whole bunch of assumptions in order to try and paint yourself as the lone and long victimized voice of reason for no goddamn reason.

You should cut that shit out, it's tiring.

[snake]

I don't know what you're talking about man. Lay off the shrooms. I was poking fun at Ukraine officials for their ham fisted attempt to blame everything on Putin. Don't take it so personal. You're self righteous shtick is getting tiresome.