Middle East and North Africa 18

[Axes]

So IDF hunts down kids like dogs 'cause 'terrorists' ? These guys are dumb

I was replying to the insinuation that IDF bombes civilian centers out of the blue due to rock throwing. True or not, this is a result of rockets, not rocks.

[Dicer]

I was replying to the insinuation that IDF bombes civilian centers out of the blue due to rock throwing. True or not, this is a result of rockets, not rocks.

I wish people would stop with the nonsensical excuses for the bombing of schools and hospitals and the massacre of innocent civilians.

1. In a lot of the situations the UN has stated that there were no rockets fired from anywhere near the vicinity of the school

2. Even if Hamas was firing useless rockets, there is no justification for the wholesale, indiscriminate slaughter of civilians. It's illegal and a war crime.

United Nations officials had told the Israeli military 17 times that a school in Gaza’s biggest refugee camp was a shelter for Palestinian civilians fleeing fighting in the teeming coastal strip, but it was not enough to save them from deadly shelling.

Blown to pieces as they huddled asleep on mattresses on classroom floors, at least 15 men, women and children were killed and more than 100 wounded when Israeli artillery fire struck Jabalya Girls Elementary School on Wednesday, U.N. officials said.

The victims had fled their homes in other battle zones hoping they would be safe under the blue-and-white U.N. flag.

Most of the injured were women and children. Among the dead was a mother and her one-year-old baby. UN staff had been attempting to organise the school's evacuation when the attack took place.

Thursday's assault on the school – one of the grimmest incidents of the war – occurred at about 2.50pm as the playground was crowded with families waiting to be ferried to safety, Peter reports:

According to survivors, one shell landed in the schoolyard followed by several more rounds that hit the upper stories of the building.

Most of the wounded were moved initially to a local hospital where terrified women and children clung to each other, waiting for news of relatives. A shell exploded about 50 metres from the hospital building as they waited.

http://forward.com/articles/203121/un-informed-israel--times-about-gaza-school-shel/

http://www.globalresearch.ca/israel-bombs-yet-another-united-nations-school-killing-women-and-children/5394068

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2014/jul/24/gaza-crisis-palestinian-death-toll-passes-700-live-updates

Hey, at the least give them the time to get out of the school before blowing it to bits.

But a warning is not much better. 57 seconds to get out before your shelter is blown up. Pity for the handicapped and disabled if they can't move fast enough.

Israel claims it is warning civilians about missile strikes by “roof knocking.” Israeli army spokesperson Lt. Col. Peter Lerner made that claim to a credulous Wolf Blitzer last night on CNN. We tap harmlessly on roofs, he said, so the residents can leave.

Residents document how Israel Air Force drops mortars on the roofs of homes before destroying them with bigger bombs.”

The building is destroyed 57 seconds after the “warning.” What kind of warning is that?

I mean just think about it. You have trapped a population by blocking all exits and not allowing them to leave and then you indiscriminately bomb them killing thousands and maiming thousands more. How is this justifiable in any sense of the word?

[Dicer]

Is TOAFK in charge of pro-Israeli propaganda in the US? I remember him mentioning something about being some sort of liaison. Its strange that after he mentions Hamas and Hitler, ads are taken out in buses in Philadelphia...

Ads showing a photograph of Adolf Hitler with a former Arab leader have started appearing on Philadelphia transit buses.

Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority buses serving riders Wednesday bear ads with the tagline “Jew Hatred: It’s in the Quran.”

The ads from the pro-Israel American Freedom Defense Initiative will appear on 84 buses. One features a 1941 photograph of Hitler and supporter Hajj Amin al-Husseini, a Palestinian Arab nationalist.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/01/hitler-philadelphia-bus-ads?CMP=share_btn_tw

A US court has allowed this Islamophobic ad to run. And at the same time an US court has banned an anti-Israel ad to run on buses.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4638631,00.html

Islamophobia and inciting hate against a people based on their religion is okay in the US, but criticizing American supported apartheid and oppression is a big no. Tells us all we need to know about the western farce of free speech.

[Biglose]

Even if we accept this batshit racist as fuck premise, that still doesn't make any of the claims untrue.

Can we just start the war against the Fourth Reich already so people like you can stop pretending not to be bigoted as fuck?

Yeah, I know honesty is bigotry. Welcome to Orwell.

Because the situation in Gaza is so much better than it is in the West Bank. (An no, they are not under occupation! Even though you need this lie to make your narrative work.)

If Israel would retreat from the west bank today, a few things would happen.

1. Any economy they had tied to Israel would break down.

2. Most of the money from the EU and the US because of the occupation would stop to flow in.

And lets be honest about it, thats pretty much everything there.

It would be a faild state from the get go. Every fucked up terrorist organisation would want to make a name for themselve going there and shoot some rockets at Israel. And Israel would respond with airstrikes.

And now that it would be a terrorist nomansland (because well, they would not even have the cloth for a police force) there would not be a single NGO, there would not be a single penny from the EU, because they won't risk their lives. They can work there because of the security the IDF provides. As cynical as it is.

But I guess you know all of that. Because lets be honest, thats not secret information most of it can already be found in the links Dicer is providing. You just have to read them an then think a bit about it.

(Yeah, a lot of it is just shitty propaganda and probably lies but every lie needs some truth around it. You can't claim the IDF is shooting guys from the moon)

So yes, I stick with it, an independent palestine would probably be much worse for the people who get to live in it. I mean just look at the opinion polls beeing taken of arabs if they would like to live in Israel or in an independent palestine. Most prefere "second class" citizen status in israel. Hard to imagine from an liberal ivory tower in a first world country.

@Dicer

A US court has allowed this Islamophobic ad to run. And at the same time an US court has banned an anti-Israel ad to run on buses.

Form your own link:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4638631,00.html

The county eventually rejected that ad, along with others proposed by pro-Israel groups. The pro-Palestinian Seattle Mideast Awareness Campaign sued, and a judge in a lower court sided with the county.

"Because the county simultaneously rejected all of the proposed ads on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict – from opposing viewpoints – no reasonable jury could find that it engaged in viewpoint discrimination," 9th Circuit Judge Paul Watford wrote on Wednesday.

Yeah, go figure...

You do not even read what you post...

[Shryke]

Yes, I deny that. They are probably better of under israely occupation than they would be otherwise. Lets just be realistic about it.

Just look how dandy they have it in jordan. (irony)

You do realise that what you say here does not actually deny Dicer's statements, yes?

That suffering under Israeli occuptation is (potentially) better then living in a failed state of your own does not actually exist in opposition with Dicer's position. They two can both, easily, be true.

So one wonders why you are pretending they are. Cause it seems like you want to minimize the current situation by saying "Well, it could be worse" or something.

[The Once and Future King]

Man don't talk fucking bullshit. Leave Iran out. It is clear you never visited that place.

Read the most recent UN human rights briefing on Iran suggesting rhey emd rhe practice of raping 9 year old girls.

[The Once and Future King]

Even if we accepted that premise as true*, it does not excuse the behavior of the state of Israel towards the Palestinians. If someone is wrong it doesn't mean that the less wrong action of someone else is now right.

Have you ever actually spend time in the Middle East, besides Israel? Did you ever visit the Occupied Territories (and not settlements)? Have you visited any other countries in the Middle East? Have you ever actually had a conversation with with a Palestinian? Did you know there are Israeli Jews who object to what their government is doing and how their government treats the Palestinians?

This was not excusing anything. This was in response to a specific sentence

[The Once and Future King]

What is the obsession with Iran? Do you know that place to call it the realm of evil? Iran is in many regards 1000x more democratic, liberal, cultivated than our allies KSA, UAE, Qatar, Pakistan,...

But yeah Bush boy says Iran is EEEEVIL and so it must be...

By the way: how many foreign Nations did evil Iran attack in the last centuries? Can you tell me?

Do you know how many hundreds of thousands of Iranian children died because of Saddam? A war which would NEVER EVER have happened without the support and backing of the US?

All Americans should be very very quiet to call Iran evil because it was the US that caused suffering and destruction to the Iranian people more than any other people since maybe the Invasion of the mongols and later on Tamerlan. Look up the history of Iran in the last 70 years...

Even the mullah regime is the result of American fuck up (Shah regime).

Iran has admitted terror proxies all over the world and has ordered attacks in 8 countries in the last 5 years including Washington D.C.

[Shryke]

As far as regimes the US gets into bed with, just in that region, Iran is like ... one of the least objectionable.

The hysterics over it are absolutely fucking silly.

[The Once and Future King]

I wish people would stop with the nonsensical excuses for the bombing of schools and hospitals and the massacre of innocent civilians.

1. In a lot of the situations the UN has stated that there were no rockets fired from anywhere near the vicinity of the school

2. Even if Hamas was firing useless rockets, there is no justification for the wholesale, indiscriminate slaughter of civilians. It's illegal and a war crime.

http://forward.com/articles/203121/un-informed-israel--times-about-gaza-school-shel/

http://www.globalresearch.ca/israel-bombs-yet-another-united-nations-school-killing-women-and-children/5394068

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2014/jul/24/gaza-crisis-palestinian-death-toll-passes-700-live-updates

Hey, at the least give them the time to get out of the school before blowing it to bits.

But a warning is not much better. 57 seconds to get out before your shelter is blown up. Pity for the handicapped and disabled if they can't move fast enough.

I mean just think about it. You have trapped a population by blocking all exits and not allowing them to leave and then you indiscriminately bomb them killing thousands and maiming thousands more. How is this justifiable in any sense of the word?

You mean the same UN group that when they found a stockpile of bombs in a school turned them over to Hamas?

The same UN the allowed fighters to use rheie ambulances for tramsport of guns?[emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23]

[Arakan]

You do realise that what you say here does not actually deny Dicer's statements, yes?

That suffering under Israeli occuptation is (potentially) better then living in a failed state of your own does not actually exist in opposition with Dicer's position. They two can both, easily, be true.

So one wonders why you are pretending they are. Cause it seems like you want to minimize the current situation by saying "Well, it could be worse" or something.

Well said, Shryke, well said.

[Biglose]

You do realise that what you say here does not actually deny Dicer's statements, yes?

That suffering under Israeli occuptation is (potentially) better then living in a failed state of your own does not actually exist in opposition with Dicer's position. They two can both, easily, be true.

So one wonders why you are pretending they are. Cause it seems like you want to minimize the current situation by saying "Well, it could be worse" or something.

No, they can't if you think about it.

If A leads to B, and Not-A leads to C, and C is worse than B. A is responsible for an improvement.

But I agree it kind of falls short of the actual issue.

We could go around and ask ourselves what would have been the case if the "Israelis" would not have been (at least partly) imprinted with the moral guidance of judaism but with lets say something along "islam". And looking at the middle east the awnser to that is unfurtinatly very clear. There would not be any palestinians left. Or just take christianity for that matter. Or even the ancient roman or greek morality (Which would be even worse compared to christianity).

Do you deny that Judaism is a religion that has led to misery, suffering, death and destruction for millions of Palestinians?

So yes, I deny that. It is (if you hold your breath and go do down that dirty train of thought) just factually plain wrong.

Everybody except the jews (unless you take the amish) would have been with a very high probabilty worse.

Alright, I concede that maybe a more radical approach in 67 would have forced a resolution by now, so more suffering back then could have prevented suffering now. But I can't and would not like to be the judge of that.

So one wonders why you are pretending they are. Cause it seems like you want to minimize the current situation by saying "Well, it could be worse" or something.

Thats at best naive at worst evil. You always have to ask yourself what the alternatives are. Look, in hospitals we cut people open (injure them on purpose) to prevent another "injury".

Antibiotics are poisons which we use because they tend to kill the bacterias faster than they kill the host. There is always a tradeof. Somethimes it is huge sometimes it is small. And sometimes it does not matter in hindsight. But saying something is bad, without looking at alternative possibilities is at best ignorant.

Everything which does do good, costs something. And be it just the energy to do it.

As far as regimes the US gets into bed with, just in that region, Iran is like ... one of the least objectionable.

Thats both true and actually very sad. A very commen combination I am afraid.

[Shryke]

I'm gonna highlight a pair of key statements here:

Do you deny that Judaism is a religion that has led to misery, suffering, death and destruction for millions of Palestinians? Do you deny that Judaism has led to Palestinian children dying and being maimed and tortured, being denied education and medicine and a decent life, kicked out of their homes and farms and not allowed to return because they belong to the wrong religion?

Everybody except the jews (unless you take the amish) would have been with a very high probabilty worse.

Cause this is your problem.

This statement does not contradict Dicer's. At all.

It can be true that being colonized by a muslim group would have been worse for the palentinians and that being colonized by jews has led to misery, suffering, death and destruction for millions of Palestinians. These two statements are not in opposition to one another.Your argument is not logically valid and seems to just be an attempt to distract from the question posed.

Why in the world are you trying to frame this as one kind of colonization vs another? That has nothing to do with what was stated.

[Dicer]

Racist bullshit

I am tired of this white man's burden bullcrap.

Why don't the Israelis first of all release the Palestinian tax money, stop stealing or destroying their farms and orchards and don't shoot them dead when they try to fish and allow them to have access to healthcare and education. Maybe then they would have a chance at building their economy!

Instead the Israelis relentlessly crush them, make them go through humiliating check points to travel, destroy everything and you have the temerity to blame the Palestinians for having a failed economy?!

“Animals. Animals. Like the Discovery Channel. All of Ramallah is a jungle. There are monkeys, dogs, gorillas. The problem is that the animals are locked they can’t come out. We’re humans. They’re animals. They aren’t humans we are.” - Israeli border police

Restrictions on the freedom of movement of Palestinians have seriously affected their access to medical care, including emergency medical treatment. The ability to reach medical care and healthcare is very uncertain and depends on a number of arbitrary decisions and restrictions.

Soldiers at checkpoints consistently stop ambulances and patients. The Palestinian Red Crescent Society, has reported 112 deaths and 35 stillbirths as a result of preventing medical personnel and patients from crossing checkpoints. The World Health Organization deplores “the incidents involving lack of respect and protection for Palestinian ambulances and medical personnel (…) as well as the restrictions on movement imposed on them by Israel, the occupying power, in violation of international humanitarian law”.

https://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/special-topics/checkpoints/

First talk about changing the racist attitude of the Israelis and people like yourself. Learn to see the Palestinians as human beings deserving of equal rights. Then talk about their economy.

[Biglose]

I'm gonna highlight a pair of key statements here:

Cause this is your problem.

This statement does not contradict Dicer's. At all.

It can be true that being colonized by a muslim group would have been worse for the palentinians and that being colonized by jews has led to misery, suffering, death and destruction for millions of Palestinians. These two statements are not in opposition to one another.Your argument is not logically valid and seems to just be an attempt to distract from the question posed.

Why in the world are you trying to frame this as one kind of colonization vs another? That has nothing to do with what was stated.

First of al, colonization does not really fit it, now does it?

You can't really deny that jews kind of lived there throught at least the last 2200 years. That just bends the definition of colonization, but on the other hand I have to concure that it seems more and more to be just an other buzz word completely void of any real meaning or definition.

Why in the world are you trying to frame this as one kind of colonization vs another? That has nothing to do with what was stated.

Just drop your useless thinking about colonization (because thats not what it is about) and you will see. Even under British rule there were tendencies to creat an jewish state. Back then they were called terrorists you might have called them freedom fighters or not. (Depending less on the situation but more on your general attitude towards jews, I guess. Another example for sad truisms.)

Well, they succeded, granted with outside support but again apartait south africa crumbled because of outside force.

Then you had a nation stated of the jewish people. With UN-Resolution and everything. So as far as legitimicy goes, that pretty much beats any other nation.

Then they were attacked several times and conquered territories in the process. Thats as much colonization as I would call the loss of german territories after WWI and WWII colonialization.

[The Once and Future King]

I am tired of this white man's burden bullcrap.

Why don't the Israelis first of all release the Palestinian tax money, stop stealing or destroying their farms and orchards and don't shoot them dead when they try to fish and allow them to have access to healthcare and education. Maybe then they would have a chance at building their economy!

Instead the Israelis relentlessly crush them, make them go through humiliating check points to travel, destroy everything and you have the temerity to blame the Palestinians for having a failed economy?!

https://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/special-topics/checkpoints/

First talk about changing the racist attitude of the Israelis and people like yourself. Learn to see the Palestinians as human beings deserving of equal rights. Then talk about their economy.

You admit Hamas runs Gaza. The world recognizes Hamas as a terror group who blow up buses and pizza shops. But why are there checkpoints between the terrorists and civilization? ?

[Galactus]

No because Hamas sprung up before israel had tactics. Hamas is the taken name of the regions Muslim Brotherhood a terror organization active since the 20s

Hamas was founded as a the successor to an earlier islamist charity in 1988 (one that was to some extent funded by Israel). Their first attack was carried out in 1989. (to further the irony, Hamas contacts with Hezbollah was established when many of their leaders were deported to South Lebanon by Israel...)

[The Once and Future King]

Hamas was founded as a the successor to an earlier islamist charity in 1988 (one that was to some extent funded by Israel). Their first attack was carried out in 1989. (to further the irony, Hamas contacts with Hezbollah was established when many of their leaders were deported to South Lebanon by Israel...)

Hamas is a recognized chapter of the Muslim Brotherhood. It adopted the name Hamas but kept the same leadership ond dogma it had since 1928

[Galactus]

Hamas is a recognized chapter of the Muslim Brotherhood. It adopted the name Hamas but kept the same leadership ond dogma it had since 1928

No it didn't. The precursor was founded as a charity in 1973. (as part of the general israeli drive to encourage islamist movements in order to weaken Fatah) It was part of a general centralization effort among various islamic groups in the 70's and 80's, pooling their resources together.

[Mr Fixit]

Is TOAFK in charge of pro-Israeli propaganda in the US? I remember him mentioning something about being some sort of liaison. Its strange that after he mentions Hamas and Hitler, ads are taken out in buses in Philadelphia...

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/01/hitler-philadelphia-bus-ads?CMP=share_btn_tw

A US court has allowed this Islamophobic ad to run. And at the same time an US court has banned an anti-Israel ad to run on buses.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4638631,00.html

Islamophobia and inciting hate against a people based on their religion is okay in the US, but criticizing American supported apartheid and oppression is a big no. Tells us all we need to know about the western farce of free speech.

Unbelievable, isn't it? Freedom of speech at its finest. An ad that doesn't promote any violence at all (Equal rights for Palestinians - Stop funding the Israeli military) is banned while one that is openly racist and inflammatory (Jew Hatred - It's in the Quran) is perfectly fine and suitable for public consumption!

Of course, it ought to be remembered that while Jews were mercilessly persecuted in medieval Europe, they found refuge and religious tolerance among Muslims, especially in Muslim-ruled Spain, a period known as Golden Age of Jewish culture. Of course, medieval Muslim world was culturally light years ahead of their Christian counterparts. One has to wonder how they managed to achieve any progress at all while being burdened with such a backward and violent religion. Maybe the crusaders could've given them a few tips on coexistence?