Middle East and North Africa 18

[DanteGabriel]

Why do so many people think criticizing Israel is a legitimate way to attack Jews everywhere?

What the suffering fuck does this even mean?

No one is attacking Jews everywhere. The government of the state of Israel is being criticized, and rightfully so, for human rights abuses.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

TOaFK,

Why do so many people think criticizing Israel is a legitimate way to attack Jews everywhere?

Who is doing that? Who has made complaints about Jews generally as opposed to Israel specifically?

[aceluby]

Why do so many people think criticizing Israel is a legitimate way to attack Jews everywhere?

Nobody is doing that, and as you go on your rhetoric is getting demonstrably worse.

[The Once and Future King]

Nobody is doing that, and as you go on your rhetoric is getting demonstrably worse.

TOaFK,

Who is doing that? Who has made complaints about Jews generally as opposed to Israel specifically?

What the suffering fuck does this even mean?

No one is attacking Jews everywhere. The government of the state of Israel is being criticized, and rightfully so, for human rights abuses.

http://www.i24news.tv/en/mobile#content/57588

http://bbcwatch.org/2015/02/20/bbc-analysis-of-copenhagen-terror-promotes-faux-linkage-to-israel-but-erases-attacks-on-jews/

http://www.newsmax.com/t/newsmax/article/618256

im not talking about feelings being Hurt. Im talking about murder. About Jews being killed in Cyprus, in South America, and in India by Iranian sponsored terror. I am talking about Jews murdered in Denmark and France, beaten in germany and england for the crime of being Zionist. (regardless of their political views)

As long as people who want to be critics of Israel join with the perpetrators of such attacks they lose legitimacy. When They say that shooting up buses on the way to school, blowing up pizza stores, and sniping babies are legitimate forms of protest they lose legitimacy. And when they single out Israel as the sole discussed human rights aggressors in rhe world, ignore by way of ignorance or hatred the realities and the facts they lose legitimacy.

And one a 'critic of Israel' loses all legitimacy, you just have a group of bigots spewing anti-semitism online.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

TOaFK,

Who... on the board... is blaming Jews generally?

[DanteGabriel]

I thought it was pretty clear we were talking about anti-Semitism in this thread. Because we got started on that topic with Fez's comments about anti-Semitism in the thread.

Or did you just take the first halfway natural segue to start spewing your next Newsmax-inflected understanding of the world?

[Shryke]

First of al, colonization does not really fit it, now does it?

You can't really deny that jews kind of lived there throught at least the last 2200 years. That just bends the definition of colonization, but on the other hand I have to concure that it seems more and more to be just an other buzz word completely void of any real meaning or definition.

How doesn't it?

There may have been jews living there throughout history but the jews that made up Israel around it's founding were not those jews. They were part of an organized mass immigration movement to form an ethno-religious state in the area. It's colonialism.

At best, you can say it doesn't fit some definitions of colonialism that require another state to be controlling the immigration and the more diffuse political backing of late-19th century/early-to-mid 20th-century zionism doesn't count, in which case you still have all the worst parts of colonialism anyway so it seems a rather pointless quibble and not one that actual fits within the statement you made.

Like, are you at all familiar with why the state of Israel even exists? Cause this statement you made here implies that you are not.

Just drop your useless thinking about colonization (because thats not what it is about) and you will see. Even under British rule there were tendencies to creat an jewish state. Back then they were called terrorists you might have called them freedom fighters or not. (Depending less on the situation but more on your general attitude towards jews, I guess. Another example for sad truisms.)

Well, they succeded, granted with outside support but again apartait south africa crumbled because of outside force.

Then you had a nation stated of the jewish people. With UN-Resolution and everything. So as far as legitimicy goes, that pretty much beats any other nation.

Then they were attacked several times and conquered territories in the process. Thats as much colonization as I would call the loss of german territories after WWI and WWII colonialization.

Again, this has nothing to do with what you were responding to. Why are you bringing up legitimacy? In what way does this have anything to do with the statement that the palestinian people have suffered under Israeli (ie - jewish) rule?

Seriously, wtf are you even talking about? Your replies have no relation to the posts you are quoting.

[Shryke]

im not talking about feelings being Hurt. Im talking about murder. About Jews being killed in Cyprus, in South America, and in India by Iranian sponsored terror. I am talking about Jews murdered in Denmark and France, beaten in germany and england for the crime of being Zionist. (regardless of their political views)

As long as people who want to be critics of Israel join with the perpetrators of such attacks they lose legitimacy. When They say that shooting up buses on the way to school, blowing up pizza stores, and sniping babies are legitimate forms of protest they lose legitimacy. And when they single out Israel as the sole discussed human rights aggressors in rhe world, ignore by way of ignorance or hatred the realities and the facts they lose legitimacy.

And one a 'critic of Israel' loses all legitimacy, you just have a group of bigots spewing anti-semitism online.

But nobody is joining the perpetrators of those acts. So wtf are you talking about?

If I like ice cream and Strom Thurmond liked ice cream that does not make the pro-ice-cream stance racist.

[DanteGabriel]

And when they single out Israel as the sole discussed human rights aggressors in rhe world, ignore by way of ignorance or hatred the realities and the facts they lose legitimacy.

This is a marvelously blinkered strawman argument you've set up, since I've been criticizing you for your failure to engage with my questions about the abusive monarchy of Saudi Arabia. There's a great opportunity for you to get involved in a discussion about someone else's human rights abuses, oh, except it's a brutal, backwards regime whose sins you're interested in minimizing and explaining away, and you refuse to elaborate upon your previous statement that they have made "real steps" to not being a barbaric, oppressive tyranny.

No, much easier to just ignore all the other threads in which you've been asked to back up monstrously ignorant off-the-cuff statements declaimed from a childish understanding of the world, and hop on this argument about Israel and Jews around the world that no one but you was making.

This whole "look at all the people who blame Jews all around the world for Israel's actions" is a stupid answer to a question no one asked.

[The Once and Future King]

But nobody is joining the perpetrators of those acts. So wtf are you talking about?

If I like ice cream and Strom Thurmond liked ice cream that does not make the pro-ice-cream stance racist.

Supporting The BDS movement started by an organization that calls for the blood of jewish children.

Supporting Hamas Hetzballah and PLF who proudly murder civilians and have since before 67.

The list continues extensively.

[The Once and Future King]

This is a marvelously blinkered strawman argument you've set up, since I've been criticizing you for your failure to engage with my questions about the abusive monarchy of Saudi Arabia. There's a great opportunity for you to get involved in a discussion about someone else's human rights abuses, oh, except it's a brutal, backwards regime whose sins you're interested in minimizing and explaining away, and you refuse to elaborate upon your previous statement that they have made "real steps" to not being a barbaric, oppressive tyranny.

No, much easier to just ignore all the other threads in which you've been asked to back up monstrously ignorant off-the-cuff statements declaimed from a childish understanding of the world, and hop on this argument about Israel and Jews around the world that no one but you was making.

This whole "look at all the people who blame Jews all around the world for Israel's actions" is a stupid answer to a question no one asked.

The majority of people on here have solid opinions based in some facts. As you are clearly just looking for fights regardless of the issue I dont plan to answer your questions in the future. But in closing I did not support the Kingdom. I was asked my opinion. I said they are heading in the right direction. I said they have a way to go. only in your sloped mind did that become unquestionable support based on their military connection with the US.

[Shryke]

Supporting The BDS movement started by an organization that calls for the blood of jewish children.

Supporting Hamas Hetzballah and PLF who proudly murder civilians and have since before 67.

The list continues extensively.

I can't remember doing either. You must be thinking of other people.

[DanteGabriel]

The majority of people on here have solid opinions based in some facts. As you are clearly just looking for fights regardless of the issue I dont plan to answer your questions in the future. But in closing I did not support the Kingdom. I was asked my opinion. I said they are heading in the right direction. I said they have a way to go. only in your sloped mind did that become unquestionable support based on their military connection with the US.

I'd say you're taking a much kinder view of an objectively worse regime than the Iranians for reasons that are hard to fathom beyond a simple propagandized understanding of one side as the "Axis of Evil" while the other guys are our allies (to the extent that we fight their wars for them) and most reliable oil pimps.

But here, the floor is yours: please explain why the Iranians deserve nothing but suspicion while the barbaric House of Saud monarchy deserves credit for these sideshow cosmetic gestures toward the 20th (let alone the 21st) century that you seem to think qualify as "real steps."

[Biglose]

How doesn't it?

There may have been jews living there throughout history but the jews that made up Israel around it's founding were not those jews. They were part of an organized mass immigration movement to form an ethno-religious state in the area. It's colonialism.

At best, you can say it doesn't fit some definitions of colonialism that require another state to be controlling the immigration and the more diffuse political backing of late-19th century/early-to-mid 20th-century zionism doesn't count, in which case you still have all the worst parts of colonialism anyway so it seems a rather pointless quibble and not one that actual fits within the statement you made.

Like, are you at all familiar with why the state of Israel even exists? Cause this statement you made here implies that you are not.

And thats just not true. Jews made up the majority of the population in the parts which became Israel in 1949. And lets be honest: Everybody kind of moved to the place where they made their nation. Just look at the wandering of people during the time of the roman empire. If you want to look at it like that, the romans kind of colonialised "israel" and pushed the jews out. Now that colonialisation has been undone. Why would you not consider that a good thing?

Again, this has nothing to do with what you were responding to. Why are you bringing up legitimacy? In what way does this have anything to do with the statement that the palestinian people have suffered under Israeli (ie - jewish) rule?

Seriously, wtf are you even talking about? Your replies have no relation to the posts you are quoting

Well, because lets be honest, if you use this definition of colonialisation, then every national movement is already colonilisation. Whenever a "Kingdom" became a nation you had the same process. True, some people argue that this kind of was a bad thing, because nationalism is a bad thing. So it would have been better if for example Europe had some kind of european emperor and everybody would have stayed a royal subject with more and more rights beeing added. Yeah, maybe that would have been a nicer timeline for it would have made everybody a royal subject and would have not drawn up divisive lines. Like: Democracy + Racism is worse than nothing of that at all.

To put it simply: I reject the notion that creating your nation state is colonlialism to start with. If Israel is a colony where is the "Israeli-Motherland"?

[Shryke]

Oh, and speaking of the big bad Iran:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/02/world/iran-nuclear-talks/

The United States and other world powers have agreed on the general terms of a deal meant to keep Iran's nuclear program peaceful, a major breakthrough after months of high-stakes negotiations.

The deal, announced Thursday evening in Switzerland, calls for Iran to limit its enrichment capacity and stockpile in exchange for the European Union lifting economic sanctions that have hobbled Iran's economy.

Iran also agreed to enrich nuclear materials only at one plant, with other nuclear facilities converted for other uses, said Federica Mogherini, foreign policy chief for the European Union.

[DanteGabriel]

Oh, and speaking of the big bad Iran:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/02/world/iran-nuclear-talks/

Does that mean Iran is taking "real steps"? That certainly seems like a more real step than naming some women to an advisory council and telling them what laws they're not allowed to consider.

[Shryke]

And thats just not true. Jews made up the majority of the population in the parts which became Israel in 1949.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? They made up the a large portion of the population in some parts in 1947 because they had all just immigrated there.

And lets be honest: Everybody kind of moved to the place where they made their nation. Just look at the wandering of people during the time of the roman empire. If you want to look at it like that, the romans kind of colonialised "israel" and pushed the jews out. Now that colonialisation has been undone. Why would you not consider that a good thing?

If we're going to be honest here, we should be honest about what the consequences of people "kind of mov[ing] to the place where they ma[k]e their nation".

It ain't pretty.

Well, because lets be honest, if you use this definition of colonialisation, then every national movement is already colonilisation. Whenever a "Kingdom" became a nation you had the same process. True, some people argue that this kind of was a bad thing, because nationalism is a bad thing. So it would have been better if for example Europe had some kind of european emperor and everybody would have stayed a royal subject with more and more rights beeing added. Yeah, maybe that would have been a nicer timeline for it would have made everybody a royal subject and would have not drawn up divisive lines. Like: Democracy + Racism is worse than nothing of that at all.

To put it simply: I reject the notion that creating your nation state is colonlialism to start with. If Israel is a colony where is the "Israeli-Motherland"?

Uh, no. Not at all. Just the ones that involved massive immigration for the purpose of forming a colony/state. There's tons of states that don't fit that definition.

You can reject the notion that Israel was founded by mass immigration for the purpose of creating an ethno-religiously homogeneous state but then you are just being silly.

[Biglose]

@Shryke

If we're going to be honest here, we should be honest about what the consequences of people "kind of mov[ing] to the place where they ma[k]e their nation".

I kind of do not understand what the bracets are about...

Uh, no. Not at all. Just the ones that involved massive immigration for the purpose of forming a colony/state. There's tons of states that don't fit that definition.

I mean Europe is kind of a no go in general. The one I could kind of think of would be Iran. But of course only going with the persian heritage not the islamic one....

I mean people kind of mass immigrated throught history and there is barly a place on earth which did not witness it.

[Dicer]

How is the US supported Saudi bombing of Yemen doing?

Around 1 a.m. on Thursday, masked gunmen armed with RPGs, hand grenades, and assault rifles stormed a central security prison in eastern Yemen, freeing more than 300 prisoners, including a top al-Qaeda commander.

Pictures posted to Twitter, apparently pulled from CCTV footage near the prison, show a pickup truck full of heavily armed men near the prison. Other photos capture a large explosion punching through the dark sky and, in another, an open gate with several figures walking away.

The prison break in al-Mukalla freed Khalid Ba Tarfi, an AQAP regional commander who was captured in 2011, and hundreds of others.

The incident underscores the degree to which the country’s security forces have collapsed amid months of political chaos and the recent barrage of a Saudi-led bombing campaign.

One of the predictable, if unintended, consequences of more than a week of Saudi airstrikes is the growing freedom al-Qaeda has to operate in the country. The Saudi-led coalition, which has labeled its efforts “Operation Decisive Storm,” has largely targeted the Huthis, a Zaydi-Shi’a militia group, as well as military units still loyal to former President Ali Abdullah Salih

http://www.buzzfeed.com/gregorydjohnsen/al-qaeda-commander-freed-in-yemen-prison-break#.yu2gQ3gR2N

Woohoo!! As predicted, Saudi Arabia with American support has cleared the path for Al Qaeda and ISIS in Yemen. More death and destruction to look forward to. American defense companies must be salivating at the prospect!

[Axes]

Are you being deliberately obtuse? They made up the a large portion of the population in some parts in 1947 because they had all just immigrated there.

Well, they were a slight majority in the area allocated to them in the partition plan. Most Jews immigrated, legally buying land, although some were native. The immigrated to an area that was never self-ruled which was controlled by the empires of the time (Ottoman then British) governed it. On the other hand, a certain percent (argued to death how high it was) of Palestinians were originally Arabs who immigrated in the 20s and 30s due to the financial growth of the region (albeit far lower than Jews). Hard to make it a clear cut case for colonization in the classical sense.