U.S. Politics - Netanyahu and Boehner OTP

[TrackerNeil]

I'm not positive what point you want me to engage or respond to?

Then I will clarify. There is a way of thinking that goes like this: Republicans and Democrats are two sides of the same coin, and are equally responsible for whatever problems one thinks are current. This is usually not the case but when you point out some policy on which one party is clearly superior, you'll get either a No True Scotsman response or something equally inadequate. In my experience, this is usually because this listener doesn't know much about the policy in question and/or is simply jaded about politics in general.

You can decide if that argument is meaningless.

[Mazrick]

Then I will clarify. There is a way of thinking that goes like this: Republicans and Democrats are two sides of the same coin, and are equally responsible for whatever problems one thinks are current. This is usually not the case but when you point out some policy on which one party is clearly superior, you'll get either a No True Scotsman response or something equally inadequate. In my experience, this is usually because this listener doesn't know much about the policy in question and/or is simply jaded about politics in general.

You can decide if that argument is meaningless.

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

While I am fairly jaded with regards to our political system, and the politicians, lobbyists, and pundits who poison it, I wouldn't assign equal blame to both parties for the state of the country. That'd be asinine. There's plenty of blame to go around, and it deserves to be assigned to the proper culprit.

[lokisnow]

Well, at least we can agree that the tea party is bad for our country and the world at large.

Speaking for myself: I dislike big government and believe in the rights of the individual citizens, thus I think fiscally conservative/socially liberal is the most accurate way to describe my political beliefs. I guess libertarian might fit, but most of the libertarians I've interacted with are too far right socially for my taste.

I'm not trying to be hip or any bullshit like that. Why would I? I don't know anybody here.

Neither party comes close to meeting my desires, so, yes, "I think both parties are bad". It would be nice if we had more than two major parties like some other countries, or the parties we do have were willing to compromise instead of playing for political points. Maybe we'd have a government that actually got shit done that way.

Well, I'm glad you're comfortable making instant judgements about people you don't know. :thumbsup:

She's too far left fiscally, I don't like hawks, and, frankly, I don't trust her. To be fair, I don't really trust any politician, so that's not a huge factor there.

Still, a thousand times better than someone like Cruz, though.

Agreed. In the extremely unlikely event that Cruz is elected, I'm out. Happily, I'm a bachelor with a passport, so I can GTFO with little hooplah.

When you say you despise big government what do you mean? Do you mean new useless massive government agencies that duplicate the same work as half a dozen other agencies because those agencies are so incompetent they refuse to work together? Or do you mean emergency expansion of unemployment benefits and food stamps?

whether you prefer republican big government or Democrat big government, government will be big when serving a big number such as 330 million (all with diverse needs and interests to meet). And if you're concerned about overall size of government, then you should support the president that has had the largest reduction in government payroll in history, obama.

Also when you say big government did you mean state local and fed or separate? It's important, I just combined them above, and it's not a very accurate way to make a generalization.

[Inigima]

Holy shit.

WSJ reports that Israel spied on US-Iran talks and fed the info to the GOP to try to sink a deal.

I don't say this lightly. I'm Jewish, I harbor real concerns about antisemitism, and I have family and friends in Israel. But at what point do we start closing embassies, expelling diplomats, cutting off funding? How much meddling in our affairs are we supposed to tolerate from this fucking clown?

[The Once and Future King]

Holy shit.

WSJ reports that Israel spied on US-Iran talks and fed the info to the GOP to try to sink a deal.

I don't say this lightly. I'm Jewish, I harbor real concerns about antisemitism, and I have family and friends in Israel. But at what point do we start closing embassies, expelling diplomats, cutting off funding? How much meddling in our affairs are we supposed to tolerate from this fucking clown?

If this is true and not just obama posturing This was found out by spying on an ally. Thats what nations do. And the white house does not claim to be offended that they were spied on, just that the information found out was told to another branch of goverment.

[lokisnow]

so republicans are conspiring with foreign governments against their democratically elected leader? Nasty.

[Maithanet]

If this is true and not just obama posturing This was found out by spying on an ally. Thats what nations do. And the white house does not claim to be offended that they were spied on, just that the information found out was told to another branch of goverment.

Spying on allies is pretty standard, and there are plenty of cases of spying in both directions for friendly relationships like US-Britain. As a general rule the aggrieved party expresses their dissatisfaction, but keeps it quiet, because they know the shoe will be on the other foot soon enough. Releasing such information to the opposing party? The US has done that sort of thing (and worse) to achieve thier political gains, but generally other countries don't have the temerity to return the favor. I give this scandal three out of five stars on the outrage scale (assuming it is true).

[The Once and Future King]

so republicans are conspiring with foreign governments against their democratically elected leader? Nasty.

So when the White House conspire to bypasses the democratically elected Congress the Members continue to dialog with World leaders? Thank God

[DanteGabriel]

so republicans are conspiring with foreign governments against their democratically elected leader? Nasty.

Of course the party that wraps itself most ostentatiously in the flag and boasts so much about its love of country and habitually questions others' patriotism is the most treacherously anti-American.

[ljkeane]

Spying on allies is pretty standard, and there are plenty of cases of spying in both directions for friendly relationships like US-Britain. As a general rule the aggrieved party expresses their dissatisfaction, but keeps it quiet, because they know the shoe will be on the other foot soon enough.

In fairness Israel has a track record of going a fair way beyond that, several people have been convicted of espionage on behalf of Israel in the US which I don't think is true of any other American allies. Having said that the spying on the talks with Iran probably doesn't rise to the level of those cases and the US didn't do anything drastic then so I doubt they will now. Leaking the fact Israel did it to the press probably is the US response.

[lokisnow]

So when the White House conspire to bypasses the democratically elected Congress the Members continue to dialog with World leaders? Thank God

Out of curiousity, are you implying that every negotiation, agreement and interaction with foreign governments goes through Congress and has to pass a 3/4 majority the same as treaties? Because only treaties are held to that extremely onerous standard and the vast majority of foreign policy is handled through the executive and not through Congress, as dictated by the Constitution. If it's not a treaty, then he's not bypassing Congress because they simply are not involved, constitutionally, in this realm.

There's a word for conspiring with foreign governments against your government, but the term escapes me at the moment...

Personally, as a patriotic American, I always put my country first. Not some other country. This is not the United States of Israel any more than it is the United States of France.

[sToNED_CAT]

Holy shit.

WSJ reports that Israel spied on US-Iran talks and fed the info to the GOP to try to sink a deal.

I don't say this lightly. I'm Jewish, I harbor real concerns about antisemitism, and I have family and friends in Israel. But at what point do we start closing embassies, expelling diplomats, cutting off funding? How much meddling in our affairs are we supposed to tolerate from this fucking clown?

Well, the Israelis said they had not spied on US directly rather they obtained the information from Iranians. Also like said (and stated in the article) mere spying on diplomatic talks isn't anything remarkable.

Anyway this quote is a real gem :

“It is one thing for the U.S. and Israel to spy on each other. It is another thing for Israel to steal U.S. secrets and play them back to U.S. legislators to undermine U.S. diplomacy,” a senior U.S. official told the newspaper.

So administration is complaining, that they were unable to conceal relevant info from Congress. :lol: That's far worse problem. If they were really transparent and kept Congress informed on their own, it wouldn't be a problem. It's pretty sad when legislative branch must get important info from foreign state instead of their own government.

[DanteGabriel]

So administration is complaining, that they were unable to conceal relevant info from Congress. :lol: That's far worse problem. If they were really transparent and kept Congress informed on their own, it wouldn't be a problem. It's pretty sad when legislative branch must get important info from foreign state instead of their own government.

And if it had been a Democratic Congress getting leaks undermining negotiations by a sitting Republican President, of course you'd feel the same way about this issue.

[The Once and Future King]

In fairness Israel has a track record of going a fair way beyond that, several people have been convicted of espionage on behalf of Israel in the US which I don't think is true of any other American allies. Having said that the spying on the talks with Iran probably doesn't rise to the level of those cases and the US didn't do anything drastic then so I doubt they will now. Leaking the fact Israel did it to the press probably is the US response.

The other side of that is that while other allys have had spies returned with a lecture and enemies have had sentences of five to ten years an Israeli spy has served over 2 decades

[lokisnow]

Well, the Israelis said they had not spied on US directly rather they obtained the information from Iranians. Also like said (and stated in the article) mere spying on diplomatic talks isn't anything remarkable.

Anyway this quote is a real gem :

So administration is complaining, that they were unable to conceal relevant info from Congress. :lol: That's far worse problem. If they were really transparent and kept Congress informed on their own, it wouldn't be a problem. It's pretty sad when legislative branch must get important info from foreign state instead of their own government.

So I assume you would also be okay with Israel stealing nuclear information, ala Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, and dessiminating all that information to all our legislators so they can have informed consent about nuclear treaties?

[The Once and Future King]

Out of curiousity, are you implying that every negotiation, agreement and interaction with foreign governments goes through Congress and has to pass a 3/4 majority the same as treaties? Because only treaties are held to that extremely onerous standard and the vast majority of foreign policy is handled through the executive and not through Congress, as dictated by the Constitution. If it's not a treaty, then he's not bypassing Congress because they simply are not involved, constitutionally, in this realm.

There's a word for conspiring with foreign governments against your government, but the term escapes me at the moment...

Personally, as a patriotic American, I always put my country first. Not some other country. This is not the United States of Israel any more than it is the United States of France.

Are you implying that a president should not include or even inform other elected officials in long term agreements with enemy nations? Cause I love HOC too but still

[DanteGabriel]

The other side of that is that while other allys have had spies returned with a lecture and enemies have had sentences of five to ten years an Israeli spy has served over 2 decades

To which specific espionage cases are you referring?

[sToNED_CAT]

And if it had been a Democratic Congress getting leaks undermining negotiations by a sitting Republican President, of course you'd feel the same way about this issue.

No, I don't see "getting leaks" as a problem. Congress should always be involved and informed, or at least Senate, that approves treaties and is more involved in foreign policy. If Obama was cooperating with Senate, those leaks would have no effect.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

The hard-right international effort to precipitate war with Iran is getting very scary indeed. If Obama can work out a deal in spite of their efforts he'll have earned that Nobel after all.

[Mexal]

Are you implying that a president should not include or even inform other elected officials in long term agreements with enemy nations? Cause I love HOC too but still

Inform them of the exact specifics of an ongoing negotiation without any resolution? No. I don't think he has to, especially when those elected officials are fucking idiots who will stop at nothing to shut it down with no reasoning other than "Iran is evil!" Given their track record and their many many attempts to undermine the President, I'm glad he bypassed them as they'd add nothing of value to the conversation as we've already seen.

And really, it's none of their business until a treaty needs to be ratified.