Why didn’t the Targaryens use Fused Stone Technology?

[Dorian Martell]

Yes, "unexpectedly" is the key word here. It makes sense for the Targs to lose this knowledge of the Doom caught them by surprise, which I think is a possibility. But with 12 years supposed warning, it's hard to fathom why they didn't get at least ONE person who knew these secrets in on their plan to escape the Doom.

They very well may have had someone on dragonstone but as I said, if they die unexpectedly, their knowledge would be lost

[TyshaLives]

I think GRRM thought up the intrinsic Valyrian background details much after he conceived how Targs lived in Westeros, so now there are deviations.

[G-Stark]

I think GRRM thought up the intrinsic Valyrian background details much after he conceived how Targs lived in Westeros, so now there are deviations.

I agree. Sometimes, we have to realise that not everything is thought through to the nth degree. It's not a real world with a real history. All of this creation is out of one man's brain and he's more focussed with the characters and the plot.

[Equilibrium]

Have you noticed all things Valyrians weren't doing V. steel, V. stone are the things I mentioned as perversion of GEOTD technology by blood magic? They also used different method of dragon bonding. In TWOIAF where everything magical is a plenty, we haven't seen much of the early Targs using blood magic, maybe they actually forsake blood magic and that is the reason they left Valyria

This actually goes in favor to my hypothesis that Targ are direct descendants of Amethyst Empress and that they were against Valyrian blood magic. When you look at it that way, whole story about flight of Targs is similar to the Biblical stories, both of Lot and escape from Sodom (with fire, destroying corrupt city) and Noah (they go by ship, they save dragons as a specie) in both of which righteous escape catastrophe. Of course this could be subverted here with Targs themselves destroyed Valyria (via Lannister gold and Faceless Men)

We know Aenar brought slaves to the DS, but it's last mention of slavery in Westeros, he could freed them or slowly turned them into serfs. Isn't it suspicious Targs both abandoned blood magic and abolished slavery, of course that could be part of the deal with FM, but it could be the reason all of it started. They had no reason to do so, you have no army, no significant wealth, blood magic and slavery are just the things you need to fuel expansion. Maybe even conquest was not the plan, maybe Aegon went against legacy of his ancestors for personal glory.

[Modesty Lannister]

I think there are several things to consider here:

1. We have observed that an excessive use of magic leads to natural disasters on Planetos. I can provide quotes if you need them, but, for now, we know that:

- Greenseers gathered en masse to raise hammer of the waters

- A non-stop practice of black magic of all sorts polluted Asshai to the point that there is an unnatural sort of darkness even during the day

- Nefer, where dark magic is also practiced without control, also lives far from sunlight - 9/10 of the city is underground while fish in the nearby waters are distorted

- Black oily stones that can be seen as artefacts leaking dark magic, polluting wild life around it as well as the nature of people who live around it.

- Examples can be found in Yeen where nature dies around the stone and apparently people become so evil when living there that every attempt to "resettle Yeen ended in horror".

- The same applies to the Iron Islands. Nagga's bones are most probably a petrified weirwood, which died off because of the dark magic leaking from the Seastone Chair. And the Ironborn are completely destructive (we do not sow) and ashamed of any productive work.

- Asshai is the darkest of places where there are no children and no natural life can survive while any life in the nearby river has been also deformed like in Nefer.

- The overuse of dark blood magic of the Isle of Tears led to a horrible Red Death.

- People on the Isle of Toads are also deformed most probably due to another oily black stone artefact.

- The same applies to the people that inhabits Thousand Islands who worship their fish gods whose statues appear when the tide recedes. We can speculate that these idols are also made of oily black stone.

- Each time Mel makes a shadowbaby, Stannis gets weaker.

- Each time Thoros revives Beric, he feels he is more removed from life

We also know that before the Doom, the use of magic in Valyria was excessive. When magically forewarned, maybe Targaryens wanted not only to flee Valyria, but magic as well. So, their choice not to bring any knowledge or anyone possessing that knowledge with them may have been very deliberate.

2. The fact that it took a lot of time for dragons to recover on Dragonstone suggests that they were weakened on Valyria proper by the overuse of magic. On Dragonstone, where there was no excessive use of magic, it took them a while to decontaminate and restart normal breeding. That would explain a time gap between the arrival of the whole Targaryen family onto Dragonstone and the resumption of what we can assume are normal dragon breeding habits.

3. Why didn't the Targaryens build stone fused buildings and roads? Point 1 explains it to a point. Furthermore, in order to build, one must have a builder. We know that the NW is divided between rangers, stewards and builders. Let's say all the builders got killed in Mance's attack, who would continue to build? Someone would, out of necessity, but old skills would be lost. And since Valyrian building skills included magic, I believe that Targaryens, who wanted to get rid of all things magical, never took anyone with them who was specialised in any form of magic.

4. Before conquering Westeros, Aegon visited Oldtown - the place where no magic is welcome, at least it is not welcome in the Citadel (Hightowers are a different matter). That would be consistent with the family tendency to reject magic or at least excessive magic that existed on Valyria. Furthermore, I'd like to think that the visit to the Oldtown had been a pivotal event for Aegon's preparation of invasion of Westeros. Oldtown opened its gates to him at the end of his conquest. The faith of seven embraced him regardless of his Valyrian decent. That suggests a deal was struck before the invasion. I believe a part of that deal was to get rid of the Ironborn who were slicing through Westeros like a knife and building Harrenhal, a place where dark magic was also excessively performed (mixing mortar with human blood, cutting down weirwood groves and incorporating them into the structure, human sacrifice to the construction etc.).

5. Finally, and this is the most speculative bit, I believe that Valyrians were a part of the ancient pact with CotF. If the oath Jojen and Meera are swearing to Bran are the words of that ancient pact, they include a bit "I swear by ice and fire". The last bit would suggest presence of Valyrians in the pact. Aegon's actions confirm this. Construction of Harrenhal was sacrilege of the Old Gods religion and earth/water magic practiced by CotF and most probably the Sacred Order of Green Men on the Isle of Faces. Harrenhal being built next to the Isle of Faces was a dark magic presence that may have corrupted the Isle of Faces itself. I believe that protection of this Isle is central and essential for the fight for a new natural balance. Destroying it, may have been fatal for the natural balance. Arya tells us that Harrenhal was not build for humans. Maybe it wasn't. Maybe it was built for whoever was going to come from the sea and invade humanity. Maybe the fishlike gods of the Thousand Islands are a race living underwater. But, I do not want to stray too far. Aegon's actions were all going against dark magic and its excessive use. I feel he made a pact with the Citadel that involved no practice of Valyrian magic, worship of Valyrian gods or exercising Valryian customs on Westeros. Maegor breached this with polygamy. Rhaenys breached it further by recruiting dragon riders from potential Targaryen bastards on Dragonstone.

So, to sum it up, I believe Targaryens did not just flee Valyria. They fled from Valyrian magic as well. The Citadel and Westeros in general made a good use of their dragons to get rid of the Ironborn and their dark magic, but when that threat was perceived to be gone, dragons became redundant for the Citadel and the Dance began.

[Cat of the First Men]

Very interesting post, Lucifer. I err a bit on the side of TyshaLives with this one:

I think GRRM thought up the intrinsic Valyrian background details much after he conceived how Targs lived in Westeros, so now there are deviations.

Another possibility is that the Targs brought people with them who had the skills/magic to build roads and make Valyrian swords, but they weren't able to pass on their knowledge. For example, Dragonstone isn't that big, so eventually you'd run out of roads to build and the road builder wouldn't be able to teach apprentices. Forging Valyrian Steel must be very difficult, probably involving sacrifice of numerous slaves for each sword. Once the Targaerians got to Dragonstone, they didn't have an obvious, reliable and cheap source of slaves. The magic may have needed the 14 fires, too. Perhaps the volcanic activity at Dragonstone wasn't strong enough to provide enough heat (magma?) or possibly even the right mineral ingredients for the swords. Without all the necessary ingredients, there would have been no way to forge the steel and the knowledge would be lost in a single generation.

I wonder whether we will see fused stone construction or Valyrian steel making reinvented now that magic is growing stronger on Planetos again.

ETA That last paragraph presumes that the loss of the strength of magic caused the loss of the knowledge. Perhaps magic became instantaneously weaker during the Doom of Vayria.

[NOT A TARG I SWEAR]

They did use the technology to do some slight re-modeling of Harrenhall.

[Han Snow]

Equilibrium

This actually goes in favor to my hypothesis that Targ are direct descendants of Amethyst Empress and that they were against Valyrian blood magic.

Yep. Though it contradicts with AA being a bad guy, because Aemon thinks that TPTWP = AA ?!

Modesty Lannister

Nailed it. Love your points. It explains the thread's question perfectly.

4. Before conquering Westeros, Aegon visited Oldtown - the place where no magic is welcome, at least it is not welcome in the Citadel (Hightowers are a different matter). That would be consistent with the family tendency to reject magic or at least excessive magic that existed on Valyria. Furthermore, I'd like to think that the visit to the Oldtown had been a pivotal event for Aegon's preparation of invasion of Westeros. Oldtown opened its gates to him at the end of his conquest. The faith of seven embraced him regardless of his Valyrian decent. That suggest a deal was struck before the invasion. I believe a part of that deal was to get rid of the Ironborn who were slicing through Westeros like a knife and building Harrenhal, a place where dark magic was also excessively performed (mixing mortar with human blood, cutting down weirwood groves and incorporating them into the structure, human sacrifice to the construction etc.).

5. Finally, and this is the most speculative bit, I believe that Valyrians were a part of the ancient pact with CotF. If the oath Jojen and Meera are swearing to Bran are the words of that ancient pact, they include a bit "I swear by ice and fire". The last bit would suggest presence of Valyrians in the pact. Aegon's actions confirm this. Construction of Harrenhal was sacrilege of the Old Gods religion and earth/water magic practiced by CotF and most probably the Sacred Order of Green Men on the Isle of Faces. Harrenhal being built next to the Isle of Faces was a dark magic presence that may have corrupted the Isle of Faces itself. I believe that protection of this Isle is central and essential for the fight for a new natural balance. Destroying it, may have been fatal for the natural balance. Arya tells us that Harrenhal was not build for humans. Maybe it wasn't. Maybe it was built for whoever was going to come from the sea and invade humanity. Maybe the fishlike gods of the Thousand Islands are a race living underwater. But, I do not want to stray too far. Aegon's actions were all going against dark magic and its excessive use. I feel he made a pact with the Citadel that involved no practice of Valyrian magic, worship of Valyrian gods or exercising Valryian customs on Westeros. Maegor breached this with polygamy. Rhaenys breached it further by recruiting dragon riders from potential Targaryen bastards on Dragonstone.

I would speculate on the bolded part that they were GeoDawnians (Daynes) who were a part of that pact not Valyrians.

And secondly, I agree that Harrenhal and Ironborn definitely played a part in stirring Aegon on Dragonstone to start planning the conquest, but I think a big part of his decision was that he probably thought himself The Prince That was Promised, that he was suppose to balance things out again. TPTWP, I believe was the most significant part of Signs and Portents written by Daenys the Dreamer.

[Modesty Lannister]

Equilibrium

Yep. Though it contradicts with AA being a bad guy, because Aemon thinks that TPTWP = AA ?!

Modesty Lannister

Nailed it. Love your points. It explains the thread's question perfectly.

I would speculate on the bolded part that they were GeoDawnians (Daynes) who were a part of that pact not Valyrians.

And secondly, I agree that Harrenhal and Ironborn definitely played a part in stirring Aegon on Dragonstone to start planning the conquest, but I think a big part of his decision was that he probably thought himself The Prince That was Promised, that he was suppose to balance things out again. TPTWP, I believe was the most significant part of Signs and Portents written by Daenys the Dreamer.

Thank you. Talking about your Dayne pet theory, it is interesting that the name of the Targaryen prophet was Daenys. I believe that First Men and Valyrians are not as far apart in their origin as one may think. It is also interesting that the most magically powerful human in the recent history of Westeros - Bloodraven - is a descendent of Targaryens on one hand and old magical first men family Blackwood that was obviously magically attacked by the Ironborn black magic. Hence, the petrified weirwood tree similar to Nagga's bones on their lands.

[LmL]

{snip}

As for the 2 dragons, I think interdynastic conflict makes the most sense as an explanation as well. I also like the idea that the simple act of conquest gave the dragons (both the people and the beasts) room to grow and prosper - a dragon grows bigger when allowed to roam and hunt, and I think the actions of Aegon's conquest and the subsequent consolidation of power could have themselves strengthened both the dragonlords and their beasts, who are connected to them.

That's a pretty logical explanation. I'm not sure if it accounts for a tenfold increase, but it could, and since Targaryens and their dragons seem to strengthen each other, this makes a certain amount of sense.

[LmL]

I think GRRM thought up the intrinsic Valyrian background details much after he conceived how Targs lived in Westeros, so now there are deviations.

This is possible, since Martin is expanding as he goes - but I tend to shy away from using this to explain inconsistencies since so many of them are intentional. And I think he's thorogh enough that he at some point would think of an explanation for the dramatic increase in dragon breeding, and the fact that the Targs didn't take fused stone, v steel making, and glass candles certainly indicates an intentional choice on Georges part. Valyrian steel is strongly present as a concept in book one, so he must have thought about the idea that the art was lost with Valyria, and not preserve by thr Targs.

Which I think points to the idea that the Targs did not know the Doom was coming.

[Ser Greg of House House]

AFAIK Targaryens did not make Valyrian steel themselves as well.

Valyria, it seems to me, was a very centralized society. Their whole power was based on the monopoly over dragons, it makes sense that they would exert some kind of control over derived technologies. Maybe not everyone was allowed to make valyrian steel and/or fused stone.

It always seemed weird to me that Targs only left because of the prophecy, and that they were the only ones. If I was leader of a small dragon family, I'd be tempted to travel around the world and build myself a kingdom. But I supposed that was forbidden, since none one did it. Targs did it, but after a long, long time. I guess the Valyrians were watching them all along, until the Doom of course.

So maybe Targs just weren't allowed to do anything like that themselves.

[LmL]

Have you noticed all things Valyrians weren't doing V. steel, V. stone are the things I mentioned as perversion of GEOTD technology by blood magic? They also used different method of dragon bonding. In TWOIAF where everything magical is a plenty, we haven't seen much of the early Targs using blood magic, maybe they actually forsake blood magic and that is the reason they left Valyria.

You saw I have you a shout out right? Yes, I did notice it, and it made me think of your hypothesis about the Targs rejecting Valyrian magic. If so, I wonder if it was a part of a pact with the COTF or the Citadel, as Modesty Lannister suggested.

This actually goes in favor to my hypothesis that Targ are direct descendants of Amethyst Empress and that they were against Valyrian blood magic. When you look at it that way, whole story about flight of Targs is similar to the Biblical stories, both of Lot and escape from Sodom (with fire, destroying corrupt city) and Noah (they go by ship, they save dragons as a specie) in both of which righteous escape catastrophe. Of course this could be subverted here with Targs themselves destroyed Valyria (via Lannister gold and Faceless Men)

That's a cool comparison to draw - the Sodom and Gomorrah especially. I think this lines up with the idea that the Targaryens did not need blood sacrifice to hatch dragon eggs. The only thing I'm cautious off is attributing too much morality to the Targaryens... But then, Aenar's son Gaemon was known as Gaemon the glorious, so maybe before Aegon they were a bit more mellow and artsy, perhaps more like Rhaenys I or Jaehaerys or young Rhaegar. This plays into the idea discussed up thread that dragons can be bred and or trained for other things than war, an interesting suggestion if we are considering that the Great Empire of the Dawn may have had different ways to control dragons.

We know Aenar brought slaves to the DS, but it's last mention of slavery in Westeros, he could freed them or slowly turned them into serfs. Isn't it suspicious Targs both abandoned blood magic and abolished slavery, of course that could be part of the deal with FM, but it could be the reason all of it started. They had no reason to do so, you have no army, no significant wealth, blood magic and slavery are just the things you need to fuel expansion. Maybe even conquest was not the plan, maybe Aegon went against legacy of his ancestors for personal glory.

Another good point - the giving up of slavery indicates a desire to integrate themselves into Westerosi society. I was listening to the conquest story and it occurred to me that Aegon was indeed very open handed to his enemies, even after they fought against him. He raised many up to their former seats, and allowed the various regions to preserve most of their culture and local autonomy. He adopted the faith of the seven and made a sigil - those are all signs of a pretty wise ruler. I still consider invading and conquering by force to be completely unethical, but given that, he wasn't a total psychopathic madman.

[LmL]

They did use the technology to do some slight re-modeling of Harrenhall.

This is a good point - they had dragons whose flame was hot enough to melt stone. But to make fused stone structures, melting stone is only step one. You need sorcery to HANDLE the molten stone and shape it - that's the hard part. The Targs didn't know how to do this, it seems.

Oh and speaking of handle, I love your name, "Not a Targ I Swear," although I think you should just go for it and add a "totally" to the beginning. :)

[LmL]

I think there are several things to consider here:

1. We have observed that an excessive use of magic leads to natural disasters on Planetos. I can provide quotes if you need them, but, for now, we know that:

- Greenseers gathered en masse to raise hammer of the waters

- A non-stop practice of black magic of all sorts polluted Asshai to the point that there is an unnatural sort of darkness even during the day

I agree with your general premise, that magic can pollute the environment, but We really have no idea if the COTF caused the Hammer of the Waters (I think that was a meteor impact from the destroyed moon), and I think that Asshai is the way it is for a similar reason - magical firestorm from the exploded moon. Whether I'm right or wrong I just wanted to point out that we don't really know what caused the Doom or the Hammer otW or Asshai's condition.

- Nefer, where dark magic is also practiced without control, also lives far from sunlight - 9/10 of the city is underground while fish in the nearby waters are distorted

No funky fish in Nefer, that's at Asshai by the Shadow, and the Brimstone River in Dorne. Also, there is no natural disaster associated with Nefer, it's just underground and super creepy. and home to Neferion, another flaming sword guy, which is another clue Azor Ahai was a bad dude.

- Black oily stones that can be seen as artefacts leaking dark magic, polluting wild life around it as well as the nature of people who live around it.

- Examples can be found in Yeen where nature dies around the stone and apparently people become so evil when living there that every attempt to "resettle Yeen ended in horror".

- The same applies to the Iron Islands. Nagga's bones are most probably a petrified weirwood, which died off because of the dark magic leaking from the Seastone Chair. And the Ironborn are completely destructive (we do not sow) and ashamed of any productive work.

Wow that's a really interesting idea for why those weirwoods are dead, I haven't heard or thought of that. I've been pondering that mystery - do those weirwoods date back to a time when the Iron Islands were joined to the mainland? Because we are told that no COTF or Giants ever lived there, but those weirwoods say otherwise (I agree they are definitely weirwoods). Nice job.

- Asshai is the darkest of places where there are no children and no natural life can survive while any life in the nearby river has been also deformed like in Nefer.

- The overuse of dark blood magic of the Isle of Tears led to a horrible Red Death.

- People on the Isle of Toads are also deformed most probably due to another oily black stone artefact.

- The same applies to the people that inhabits Thousand Islands who worship their fish gods whose statues appear when the tide recedes. We can speculate that these idols are also made of oily black stone.

Maybe, but I tend to think they are hybrid offspring of the fish beings they fear so much. They are basically the rape victims of the Merlings, which is why they are so freakin terrified of the water. Their looks may be the result of hybridization, not greasy stone.

- Each time Mel makes a shadowbaby, Stannis gets weaker.

- Each time Thoros revives Beric, he feels he is more removed from life

We also know that before the Doom, the use of magic in Valyria was excessive. When magically forewarned, maybe Targaryens wanted not only to flee Valyria, but magic as well. So, their choice not to bring any knowledge or anyone possessing that knowledge with them may have been very deliberate.

This is a strong hypothesis. Part often thrust of my question is that they either didn't know the Doom was coming, or chose not to take one technologies, or didn't have access to them. The idea they CHOSE not to is really intersting from a psychology standpoint, and would really tell us a lot about the Targs vs other Valyrians if true.

2. The fact that it took a lot of time for dragons to recover on Dragonstone suggests that they were weakened on Valyria proper by the overuse of magic. On Dragonstone, where there was no excessive use of magic, it took them a while to decontaminate and restart normal breeding. That would explain a time gap between the arrival of the whole Targaryen family onto Dragonstone and the resumption of what we can assume are normal dragon breeding habits.

I don't know about that, Valyria has thousands of dragons when they roasted the Rhoynar. There is no evidence that I am aware of that Valyria's magic was weakening apart form the mystery of the Targs poor record for breeding dragons on Dragonstone. It's possible, but unsupported by other evidence. And given that the Dragonstone dragons are stronger than the pit dragons... Dragonstone seems like a great home for dragons, I would expect the breeding there to be successful pretty much right away.

3. Why didn't the Targaryens build stone fused buildings and roads? Point 1 explains it to a point. Furthermore, in order to build, one must have a builder. We know that the NW is divided between rangers, stewards and builders. Let's say all the builders got killed in Mance's attack, who would continue to build? Someone would, out of necessity, but old skills would be lost. And since Valyrian building skills included magic, I believe that Targaryens, who wanted to get rid of all things magical, never took anyone with them who was specialised in any form of magic.

Again, it's possible that the Targs were rejecting magical things, but not wholesale. They weren't against V steel blades morally - they had no problem selling them. Dragons are magic, and they had no problems their. Daenys the Dreamer was a prophet who wrote a big book full of magical information. Visenya was into sorcery (although maybe she's a backslider, who knows). I'm not ruling this possibility out but it seems they would have been rejecting certain types of magic, not all things magical.

4. Before conquering Westeros, Aegon visited Oldtown - the place where no magic is welcome, at least it is not welcome in the Citadel (Hightowers are a different matter). That would be consistent with the family tendency to reject magic or at least excessive magic that existed on Valyria. Furthermore, I'd like to think that the visit to the Oldtown had been a pivotal event for Aegon's preparation of invasion of Westeros. Oldtown opened its gates to him at the end of his conquest. The faith of seven embraced him regardless of his Valyrian decent. That suggests a deal was struck before the invasion. I believe a part of that deal was to get rid of the Ironborn who were slicing through Westeros like a knife and building Harrenhal, a place where dark magic was also excessively performed (mixing mortar with human blood, cutting down weirwood groves and incorporating them into the structure, human sacrifice to the construction etc.).

I also think the Oldtown visit is a flashing red light. Not sure if he worked out something with the Faith, or learned of dragon knowledge, or both. The citadel may not have been anti-dragon at the time, it should be considered, and so may have been totally willing to use Aegon against Black Harren. Dragons had no presence on Westeros since the Dawn Age, so the Maesters may have developed their feelings about dragons after the conquest.

5. Finally, and this is the most speculative bit, I believe that Valyrians were a part of the ancient pact with CotF. If the oath Jojen and Meera are swearing to Bran are the words of that ancient pact, they include a bit "I swear by ice and fire". The last bit would suggest presence of Valyrians in the pact. Aegon's actions confirm this. Construction of Harrenhal was sacrilege of the Old Gods religion and earth/water magic practiced by CotF and most probably the Sacred Order of Green Men on the Isle of Faces. Harrenhal being built next to the Isle of Faces was a dark magic presence that may have corrupted the Isle of Faces itself. I believe that protection of this Isle is central and essential for the fight for a new natural balance. Destroying it, may have been fatal for the natural balance. Arya tells us that Harrenhal was not build for humans. Maybe it wasn't. Maybe it was built for whoever was going to come from the sea and invade humanity. Maybe the fishlike gods of the Thousand Islands are a race living underwater. But, I do not want to stray too far. Aegon's actions were all going against dark magic and its excessive use. I feel he made a pact with the Citadel that involved no practice of Valyrian magic, worship of Valyrian gods or exercising Valryian customs on Westeros. Maegor breached this with polygamy. Rhaenys breached it further by recruiting dragon riders from potential Targaryen bastards on Dragonstone.

I'm into this whole theory about Harrenhall violating the Gods Eye pact and thus enabling Aegon to enter Westeros with dragons. This is connected to the original pact betwen the First Men and COTF and the idea that part of the pact was that the COTF would ward Westeros against dragon invasion as long as the First Men took up their religion and stopped chopping down weirwoods. This is a bit off topic, but we are now taking about the Great Empire of the Dawn, and the Bloodstone Emperor after his usurpation of the throne, having a dragon presence on Westeros in the Dawn Age. The idea is that the COTF greenseers used their warging to take down the dragons of this original invasion, likely at Battle Isle ("Archmaester Perestan has put forward a different, more plausible speculation, suggesting that the Valyrians had in ancient days reached as far as old town but suffered some great reverse or tragedy there that cause them to shun all of Westeros thereafter." - TWOAIF). This would explain why the First Men took up the Old Gods religion - the Old Gods just saved their asses from Dragons, demonstrating their power. The pact was formed, and held until the abomination of Harrenhall. I'm not sure why all the other COTF slaughter by the Andals didn't violate it, perhaps because they weren't part of the pact, but Harrenhall was certainly a multi-level abomination. And the fact that Aegon invaded the same day it was finished seems to weird to be a coincidence, although those things do happen sometimes.

So, to sum it up, I believe Targaryens did not just flee Valyria. They fled from Valyrian magic as well. The Citadel and Westeros in general made a good use of their dragons to get rid of the Ironborn and their dark magic, but when that threat was perceived to be gone, dragons became redundant for the Citadel and the Dance began.

Pretty great hypothesis Modesty Lannister, thanks for all the input.

[LmL]

Thank you. Talking about your Dayne pet theory, it is interesting that the name of the Targaryen prophet was Daenys. I believe that First Men and Valyrians are not as far apart in their origin as one may think. It is also interesting that the most magically powerful human in the recent history of Westeros - Bloodraven - is a descendent of Targaryens on one hand and old magical first men family Blackwood that was obviously magically attacked by the Ironborn black magic. Hence, the petrified weirwood tree similar to Nagga's bones on their lands.

Tend to agree here, just commenting to say, "so you think the Ironborn poisoned the Blackwood tree?"

Of course I agree with Han Snow that any dragon presence in Dawn Age Westeros or any dragonblood presence in the pact of the Gods Eye would have been GeoDawnians, not Valyrians.

[LmL]

Oh and add the dragonbinder horn that Euron gives to Victorian to the list of Valyrian technologies that the Targaryens didn’t bring with them. That’s always been a mystery - why would the Valerians need such a horn, if so many of them were dragonriders in the same way as the Targaryens were? The Targs didn’t need dragonbinder horns.

[Whitering]

I really like the idea that the Doom was partially or entirely caused by Valyrian factional infighting, that the years leading up to the Doom may have been extremely and increasingly tense. In that kind of atmosphere, it's not unreasonable to think that the power and options of smaller houses may have been limited, perhaps up to and including forbidden them from getting 'builder dragons' if such stratification existed. Also, it could make any approach to another house with more resources risky.

Then the quote from the KM to Arya makes a lot more sense than the FM being master sorcerers capable of setting of volcanoes. They could have just been strategically killing people such that the families fell to infighting thinking that other families were making moves on them, like the elves of the Underdark in the Forgotten Realms.

[Modesty Lannister]

I agree with your general premise, that magic can pollute the environment, but We really have no idea if the COTF caused the Hammer of the Waters (I think that was a meteor impact from the destroyed moon), and I think that Asshai is the way it is for a similar reason - magical firestorm from the exploded moon. Whether I'm right or wrong I just wanted to point out that we don't really know what caused the Doom or the Hammer otW or Asshai's condition.

This is an epic fantasy story with strong magical elements, LmL. You have to decide in your own analysis and theories what is more likely and what can coexist. Your astronomy is based on the myth about two moons. That is one instance in the whole text. I am not saying it is impossible, but I'd say it is not central to the story. GRRM himself said that the resolution to the question of natural misbalance will be magical by nature.

The excessive use of magic (especially dark magic) and its poisonous effects both on nature and human soul is a recurring theme as my examples demonstrate. It is recurring in all eras and all parts of Planetos. Even the myth about the Bloodstone emperor that you like so much is basically a tale of dark magic so excessive that brought forward the Long Night. That does not mean that what I am saying cannot coexist with your astronomical explanation. As we saw, a comet appearance coincided with the birth of dragons.

CotF rising hammer of the waters is something that has been recurring as well. In the books, two instances of rising hammer of the waters were mentioned - one flooded the Neck and created current geography around it:

Just beyond, through the mists, she glimpsed the walls and towers of Moat Cailin... or what remained of them. Immense blocks of black basalt, each as large as a crofter’s cottage, lay scattered and tumbled like a child’s wooden blocks, half-sunk in the soft boggy soil. Nothing
else remained of a curtain wall that had once stood as high as Winterfell’s. The wooden keep was gone entirely, rotted away a thousand years past, with not so much as a timber to mark where it had stood. All that was left of the great stronghold of the First Men were three towers... three where there had once been twenty, if the taletellers could be believed.

The Gatehouse Tower looked sound enough, and even boasted a few feet of standing wall to either side of it. The Drunkard’s Tower, off in the bog where the south and west walls had once met, leaned like a man about to spew a bellyful of wine into the gutter. And the tall, slender Children’s Tower, where legend said the children of the forest had once called upon their nameless gods to send the hammer of the waters, had lost half its crown.

Catelyn, AGOT

The other broke the arm of Dorne and divided Westoros from Essos. So, the text tells us that CotF's used their magic on an excessive scale twice - once flooding the Neck and the second time breaking the arm of Dorne. If your theory about meteoric shower is correct, these events should have coincided, but they didn't.

Finally, driven by desperation, the little people turned to sorcery and beseeched their greenseers to stem the tide of these invaders. And so they did gathering in their hundreds (some say on the Isle of Faces) and calling on their gods with song and prayer and grisly sacrifice (a thousand captive men were fed to the weirwood, one version of the tale goes, whilst another claimed the children used the blood of their own young).

TWOIAF

As for Asshai, the text tells us that Asshai has no herbal life while life in the nearby river is deformed. If your theory about the magical firestorm from an exploded moon was correct, Asshai would have been levelled to the ground. Even if (since you postulate although there is nothing in the text to support it) the magical nature of this meteoric shower did not destroy Asshai, but created pollution, it happened thousands of years ago. Don't you think some of that pollution would have gone away by now? As we know, the Long Night came and went. So, how would you explain the CURRENT situation in Asshai? The text gives us explanation - dark magic and its use on an excessive scale.

No funky fish in Nefer, that's at Asshai by the Shadow, and the Brimstone River in Dorne. Also, there is no natural disaster associated with Nefer, it's just underground and super creepy. and home to Neferion, another flaming sword guy, which is another clue Azor Ahai was a bad dude.

Even the fish taken from these eastern seas are misshapen, with a bitter, unpleasant taste, it is said. Only one port of note is to be found on the Shivering Sea east of the Bones: Nefer.

TWOIAF

So, Nefer is a port east of the Bones and the waters east of the Bones contain misshapen fish. There is nothing ambiguous about that. Pollution of water and distortion of fish is a natural disaster. I do not see how Neferion being from a creepy place (which you have no proof was as creepy at the time Neferion lived there) has anything to do with him (in case he is Azor Ahai) being a bad guy. You need much more textual evidence for such conjunctures.

Wow that's a really interesting idea for why those weirwoods are dead, I haven't heard or thought of that. I've been pondering that mystery - do those weirwoods date back to a time when the Iron Islands were joined to the mainland? Because we are told that no COTF or Giants ever lived there, but those weirwoods say otherwise (I agree they are definitely weirwoods). Nice job.

This is an old idea that I have already mentioned in a similar context on your thread. I am surprised you haven't read it. I have also posted a link on one of your threads where the issue of Nagga's bones was discussed at length. You said you read it, so I am a bit puzzled by your reaction. Also, on that thread, it was discussed that the Iron Islands may have been cut off of the main land by another hammer of the waters in order to separate the continent from dark magic of the Seastone chair. However, although there is some proof of that (since we learn in TWOIAF that the Iron Islands were covered in woodland once and they look much like Stepstones), I do not see this is the place to expand on it.

Maybe, but I tend to think they are hybrid offspring of the fish beings they fear so much. They are basically the rape victims of the Merlings, which is why they are so freakin terrified of the water. Their looks may be the result of hybridization, not greasy stone.

This is highly speculative. You have no textual evidence for this. But, even if you are right, to achieve that, you again need dark magic of an excessive scale. And they are not the only ones terrified of water. Dothraki are as well and so is Patchface.

This is a strong hypothesis. Part often thrust of my question is that they either didn't know the Doom was coming, or chose not to take one technologies, or didn't have access to them. The idea they CHOSE not to is really intersting from a psychology standpoint, and would really tell us a lot about the Targs vs other Valyrians if true.

Well, I am glad you liked it. It is derived directly from what I said before that.

I don't know about that, Valyria has thousands of dragons when they roasted the Rhoynar. There is no evidence that I am aware of that Valyria's magic was weakening apart form the mystery of the Targs poor record for breeding dragons on Dragonstone. It's possible, but unsupported by other evidence. And given that the Dragonstone dragons are stronger than the pit dragons... Dragonstone seems like a great home for dragons, I would expect the breeding there to be successful pretty much right away.

You completely misunderstood my thesis. I said that EXCESSIVE USE of magic pollutes nature and human souls. I gave many examples. It stands to reason to think that, as the Doom was approaching, all natural life on Valyrian peninsula started to suffer or even suffered gravely. If we compare the situation to Asshai or Yeen, it was probably not that bad, but similar. Therefore, all life forms would have been weakened, dragons included, while men would have been starting to display destructive behaviour (see my previous post on the Ironborn and resettlements of Yeen). There are hints of that destructive behaviour in TWOIAF. So, it would take time for dragons to recover from that pollution.

You are mixing ordinary use of magic and the pollution by excessive use magic. Of course Valyrian magic was strong. Magic is strong in Asshai. But, it comes with a price. "Only death can pay for life". And EXCESSIVE USE of magic requires excessive life sacrifice. It is all in the text, LmL. Your example of the battle between Valyrians and the Rhoynar is yet another example of the excessive use of magic that led to greyscale polluted waters to the present day.

Again, it's possible that the Targs were rejecting magical things, but not wholesale. They weren't against V steel blades morally - they had no problem selling them. Dragons are magic, and they had no problems their. Daenys the Dreamer was a prophet who wrote a big book full of magical information. Visenya was into sorcery (although maybe she's a backslider, who knows). I'm not ruling this possibility out but it seems they would have been rejecting certain types of magic, not all things magical.

Again, you mix magic, magical objects and beings with an excessive use of magic. Targs did not create any magical objects on Dragonstone or Westeros. They happened to own magical beings and write about magic. They did not blow dragon binding horns, they did not use spells to build roads or castles. They did not practice magic. Something big, like Doom, would be enough to deter a magical family from using magic. Unlike Westerosi, Targaryens KNEW what was going on in Valyria before Doom. Their distancing from magic is quite telling. It's not a question of morality, but survival. And there is no textual evidence Valyrian swords that exist on Westeros were bought from the Targaryens. Valyria is closer to Westeros than Slavers Bay. It is not such a stretch to travel and trade. Ice, for example, was in Stark possession way before the Doom.

I also think the Oldtown visit is a flashing red light. Not sure if he worked out something with the Faith, or learned of dragon knowledge, or both. The citadel may not have been anti-dragon at the time, it should be considered, and so may have been totally willing to use Aegon against Black Harren. Dragons had no presence on Westeros since the Dawn Age, so the Maesters may have developed their feelings about dragons after the conquest.

That is exactly what I said in my post.

I'm into this whole theory about Harrenhall violating the Gods Eye pact and thus enabling Aegon to enter Westeros with dragons. This is connected to the original pact betwen the First Men and COTF and the idea that part of the pact was that the COTF would ward Westeros against dragon invasion as long as the First Men took up their religion and stopped chopping down weirwoods. This is a bit off topic, but we are now taking about the Great Empire of the Dawn, and the Bloodstone Emperor after his usurpation of the throne, having a dragon presence on Westeros in the Dawn Age. The idea is that the COTF greenseers used their warging to take down the dragons of this original invasion, likely at Battle Isle ("Archmaester Perestan has put forward a different, more plausible speculation, suggesting that the Valyrians had in ancient days reached as far as old town but suffered some great reverse or tragedy there that cause them to shun all of Westeros thereafter." - TWOAIF). This would explain why the First Men took up the Old Gods religion - the Old Gods just saved their asses from Dragons, demonstrating their power. The pact was formed, and held until the abomination of Harrenhall. I'm not sure why all the other COTF slaughter by the Andals didn't violate it, perhaps because they weren't part of the pact, but Harrenhall was certainly a multi-level abomination. And the fact that Aegon invaded the same day it was finished seems to weird to be a coincidence, although those things do happen sometimes.

I'd like to stay on the topic if you don't mind. I know you are into this GEOD thing, but all these events significantly preceded the pact. When I say the First Men and Valyrians may not be as far in terms of their origin as we may think, I am not just thinking about your pet theory, which I have nothing against in principle, but about my pet theory as well, which I have been working on for a long time. But, since I haven't posted it yet and since I am satisfied with a theory only if it has a deep basis in the text, I said that part was the most speculative one.

Pretty great hypothesis Modesty Lannister, thanks for all the input.

You are most welcome. I always try to do my best.

[anonnyscouse]

I always assumed magic was used to fuse the stone, not just dragonfire. It may be that when the Targs relocated to Dragonstone they had a Mage with them in their service, but after they died they weren't able to find a new Mage with the knowledge.

Alternatively as blackstone is made by dragonfire it is likely that dragonfire would not be able to destroy it, meaning if there was a rebellion in the relatively recently united country it would be harder to quell with the dragons if the Targs had provided castles made from blackstone and/or had their own castles occupied by usurpers.