Black Crow Posted April 4, 2015 Author Share Posted April 4, 2015 Perhaps. And perhaps this is why the 13th Lord Commander might want to return to his old bed chamber as well. Winterfell itself seems to be the goal for a great many characters (even Tywin at one time), and Winter seems to now be emanating from it. Curiouser and curiouser. The Stark words Winter is Coming have tended to be interpreted in Heresy as a battle-cry rather than an injunction to lay in extra firewood. I did mention earlier that Jon and Sansa might be connected by the snowflake communion. Arya, despite her troubles, has never forgotten that she is a Stark of Winterfell. Sansa seemed to lose that until the snowflake communion. Jon likewise has disconnection problems, as expressed in the crypt dreams, yet Winterfell is calling to him and if he hasn't already taken that snowflake he seems very likely to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 The Stark words Winter is Coming have tended to be interpreted in Heresy as a battle-cry rather than an injunction to lay in extra firewood. I did mention earlier that Jon and Sansa might be connected by the snowflake communion. Arya, despite her troubles, has never forgotten that she is a Stark of Winterfell. Sansa seemed to lose that until the snowflake communion. Jon likewise has disconnection problems, as expressed in the crypt dreams, yet Winterfell is calling to him and if he hasn't already taken that snowflake he seems very likely to.I've always agreed with the war cry, but the question remains which side Starks were on. Both, seems to be the answer. NK on one side, the Stark that cast him down on the other. I see Jon filling the latter role this time around, rather than the prior. I know some heretics disagree. Mayhaps he'll hook up with Sansa after all, though that sounds way too "happily ever after" for GRRM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted April 4, 2015 Author Share Posted April 4, 2015 I've always agreed with the war cry, but the question remains which side Starks were on. Both, seems to be the answer.NK on one side, the Stark that cast him down on the other. I see Jon filling the latter role this time around, rather than the prior. I know some heretics disagree.Mayhaps he'll hook up with Sansa after all, though that sounds way too "happily ever after" for GRRM. I'm not sure that it can't be both. The synopsis does point to the recovery of the Family Stark and given that there are so many redemption arcs tied up in this I can see Jon, like Bran, being drawn to the dark side before fighting that battle not as one of the damned, but as a son of Winterfell - and I really wouldn't rule out Uncle Benjen as the Nights King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaronomus Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Its a good point, but I really can't see where this could go, conversely although Bran does seem the obvious candidate its difficult to see anything that has happened to him in the show that would preclude a change. I suppose the question of course may not relate to what we've seen but to something that happens in series 5. Just keep in mind that it's a twist that took years to occur to GRRM. It's not likely to be forseen by us any sooner (unless of course he got the idea from a page like this one). Whatever this twist is, if indeed he decides to implement it, I I'd be surprised if I weren't surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 When we next see Benjen, my money is on him being an Other or in the Process of being transformed into an Other. I'm sticking with my guns that the Others are House Stark... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted April 4, 2015 Author Share Posted April 4, 2015 When we next see Benjen, my money is on him being an Other or in the Process of being transformed into an Other. I'm sticking with my guns that the Others are House Stark... That, I think, is too sweeping. As I said above I think that there may indeed be a connection, and that some Starks are involved, but not all of them. Hence that business of the Nights King being cast down by his brother, the Stark of Winterfell. I think its going to be more complicated than you're suggesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 That, I think, is too sweeping. As I said above I think that there may indeed be a connection, and that some Starks are involved, but not all of them. Hence that business of the Nights King being cast down by his brother, the Stark of Winterfell. I think its going to be more complicated than you're suggesting. Agree with this,though i'm more confident about Bran going darkside than Jon.I think Jon will be darker ,maybe he'll even tempted but not corrupted like Bran might be.Essentially i think we'll be seeing a pair of Wolves fighting. This is not limited to Bran and Jon though,it could be Jon and his predecessor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firepoet Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Seems more like her "disturbing" chapter won't be rape by Littlefinger but Sansa herself using sex to her own ends. I just wanted to clarify that this was the chapter that was described as controversial. The original comment was blown out of proportion by Vulture and the fan community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 I'm not sure that it can't be both. The synopsis does point to the recovery of the Family Stark and given that there are so many redemption arcs tied up in this I can see Jon, like Bran, being drawn to the dark side before fighting that battle not as one of the damned, but as a son of Winterfell - and I really wouldn't rule out Uncle Benjen as the Nights King. I'm thinking both as well. But I tend to see Jon sticking with the honorable Ned-like role, and Bran the Broken descending into the darkness he feels so comfortable in. Ghost didn't find Bran's new state all that appealing you will remember. And Ghost sees all. Bran is the chained winged wolf. Rather than liberate him, the Reeds brought him to the dungeon. That being said, I still don't think BR is bad. He was vilified, as was Tyrion, during his handship, but I think his intentions are not as dark as some other folks around here believe. Ramsay, he is not. Ned, he is not. But I think he may end up being more like Jon, crossed with Tyrion, than he gets credit for. Also, there is no need for a "new Night's King." Neither Benjen nor Jon will fill this role. The original one still reigns to this day in the Heart of Winter. He misses his home, and he wants his sword back ;) Bran caught a glimpse of his doings in his falling dream. Coldhands exists to demonstrate, for the reader, the antiquity of Northern players in the Song. "They killed him long ago..." and he knows the Night Fort well. He swore his oath in the long night. When we next see Benjen, my money is on him being an Other or in the Process of being transformed into an Other. I'm sticking with my guns that the Others are House Stark... The Others are undoubtedly tied to First Men, if not formerly First Men. But not House Stark exclusively. While we lack evidence either way as of yet, I'm pretty confident they pre-date House Stark. House Stark consolidated it's power in the immediate wake of the Long Night, but I think the Others have their origins in events that occurred long before the Long Night itself. Theirs is an acorn that grew slowly... That, I think, is too sweeping. As I said above I think that there may indeed be a connection, and that some Starks are involved, but not all of them. Hence that business of the Nights King being cast down by his brother, the Stark of Winterfell. I think its going to be more complicated than you're suggesting. I think House Stark came to exist as a direct response to Others. If the tales are to be believed, an early Stark built the Wall and formed the Watch. While we might disagree over timelines, there can be no doubt that both the Night's Watch and the Wall were established as a response to the Long Night and the Others. Thus, the Wall, the NW, and House Stark itself were "built" to rise and meet the "true threat" to Westeros. Agree with this,though i'm more confident about Bran going darkside than Jon.I think Jon will be darker ,maybe he'll even tempted but not corrupted like Bran might be.Essentially i think we'll be seeing a pair of Wolves fighting. This is not limited to Bran and Jon though,it could be Jon and his predecessor. Ghost smelled death around Bran. Was this just the rich, earthy, compost around the weirwood roots? Or death itself? Intriguing thoughts. Bran is no doubt already "less good" than Jon. Jon hasn't snatched any simpleton's body as of late. I just wanted to clarify that this was the chapter that was described as controversial. The original comment was blown out of proportion by Vulture and the fan community. Thanks for the re-alignment of expectations. You are a party pooper, but you're right :D Hard not to jump aboard the hype train every once in a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 Also, there is no need for a "new Night's King." Neither Benjen nor Jon will fill this role. The original one still reigns to this day in the Heart of Winter. He misses his home, and he wants his sword back ;) Ghost smelled death around Bran. Was this just the rich, earthy, compost around the weirwood roots? Or death itself? Intriguing thoughts. Bran is no doubt already "less good" than Jon. Jon hasn't snatched any simpleton's body as ofWell if your up with the theme flowing, the current Nk's like BR has to be replaced.That's the way it has to go,the only thing now is if he's going to go quietly or not.Death is more than just the tangible stench of decay for sure and as I said I have no doubt that it is Bran who will be going dark.Though I think in this case true to the story it will be ambiguous.Bran has shown propensity for rebellion.It is no coincidence BR is not attending to how far Bran should fly,while the 3EC sought the opposite.I don't think BR is evil,I think he has been playing a long game.Are we going to drink the kool-aid that he ceased being who he is because he's in a tree? That he went all Zen,nah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 Well if your up with the theme flowing, the current Nk's like BR has to be replaced.That's the way it has to go,the only thing now is if he's going to go quietly or not.Death is more than just the tangible stench of decay for sure and as I said I have no doubt that it is Bran who will be going dark.Though I think in this case true to the story it will be ambiguous.Bran has shown propensity for rebellion.It is no coincidence BR is not attending to how far Bran should fly,while the 3EC sought the opposite.I don't think BR is evil,I think he has been playing a long game.Are we going to drink the kool-aid that he ceased being who he is because he's in a tree? That he went all Zen,nah.I don't subscribe to the office of NK being replenished. I remember many heresies ago we had a good discussion about it. Shrouded Lord references, etc. I agree about death being more than decay, and Bran likely being more grey than black or white. Clearly, though only a boy, he's not afraid of fearful surroundings, nor of committing fearful abominations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tyrion XX Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 GRRM wants TWOW finished by end of 2015 to be released before season 6 starts.I'm STOKED. Now if only I could nap for 9 or 10 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 I don't subscribe to the office of NK being replenished. I remember many heresies ago we had a good discussion about it. Shrouded Lord references, etc. I agree about death being more than decay, and Bran likely being more grey than black or white. Clearly, though only a boy, he's not afraid of fearful surroundings, nor of committing fearful abominations.I know you don't . .....As for Bran being only a boy,well as Ned says He won't be a boy for long and Winter is coming.Bran being a "boy" in this story means nothing because he is a boy with power in the hands of another with serious street cred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 I know you don't . .....As for Bran being only a boy,well as Ned says He won't be a boy for long and Winter is coming.Bran being a "boy" in this story means nothing because he is a boy with power in the hands of another with serious street cred. Nice! I was using his "boyhood" ironically. Though young, he's far from innocent. Hodor on the other hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 Now if only I could nap for 9 or 10 months. If only you could... LOL just kidding KT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Ida Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 GRRM wants TWOW finished by end of 2015 to be released before season 6 starts.I'm STOKED. Now if only I could nap for 9 or 10 months. Great news, but I hope you stay awake over rhe summer. Next Winter will come :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aDanceWithFlagons Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 A little easter funny via Jim Gaffigan (old) http://youtu.be/i15sOVWoN4g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Cooterian Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 Nice! I was using his "boyhood" ironically. Though young, he's far from innocent. Hodor on the other hand... Careful Voice....that's pretty close to the old hanging participle infraction. The Heresy governing board has determined that for three infractions the poster has to give up 10 pieces of obsidian. :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 Nice! I was using his "boyhood" ironically. Though young, he's far from innocent. Hodor on the other hand...Hodor the muscle :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 That, I think, is too sweeping. As I said above I think that there may indeed be a connection, and that some Starks are involved, but not all of them. Hence that business of the Nights King being cast down by his brother, the Stark of Winterfell. I think its going to be more complicated than you're suggesting. My way of thinking is this: The Others / their Origin had to been introduced to the reader in the early chapters of the book... Of course, the dots were not connected, but according to the basic rules of writing, the audience at least needed to be introduced to who/what these Others are... Also, Who the Others are has to be intriguing & it has to be properly foreshadowed to the reader. So far, there does not seem to be any of the necessary foreshadowing... Unless we consider that all the time spent down in the crypts, whether characters are physically there, or dreaming, or remembering is this foreshadowing & the reader is simply missing the key to the puzzle that will link the Others to the Crypts... After the big reveal that the Others are The Starks of Winterfell (Ned's Frozen Hell Reserved for the Starks of Winterfell), all of the foreshadowing will become clear... I've been thinking about this for years (as have you) & personally, I do not see an alternative... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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