Heresy 162

[superunknown5]

If this is so, might it not be the case that dragonglass and dragonsteel are so named because they work equally well on the big scaly beasts by destroying their magic as well? We do after all have that story about Azor Ahai slaying the "monster". In other words the "Others" may encompass all the creatures of both ice and fire held by magic and the real struggle here might come down in the end to man against magic.

:agree:

[wolfmaid7]

I love posts like this. Love it. And thanks for the shout out about the KoW denying Guest Right. Your posts are terrific.

I was thinking, which I'm sure a few people might be rolling their eyes to hear, but about that ice and fire thing... Rhaegar puts tsoiaf in a single person, Aegon. A fire parent and a sun and spear parent, who more importantly perhaps has Rhoynish "water magic" (see Garin) blood. This is why for many years I was certain Jon is the true Aegon (eh, I haven't put that aside entirely, anyway...)

If Rhaegar's son Aegon was/is TWTWP, and he needed three heads of the dragon to fight the enemy, I can only presume Rhaegar had information about the enemy of his super special son, conceived during a comet.

What if Rhaegar was tying to pre-empt his sons battle with his enemy, and possibly cheat the prophecy, by kidnapping the woman carrying it?

If Aegon is tsoiaf, he can't be the only one playing. Otherwise, what is the point of a magical dragon-riding trifecta?

Let's put it this way, if the IceLyannaFireRhaegar baby was supposed to be the balance, it certainly has not worked. How would that work? Jon is exposed as the Ice/Fire baby and suddenly all is right with the world? I can't wrap my head around that considering the coming conflicts. I don't expect anyone to drop their weapons and bend the knee if the big reveal is RLJ, and all manner of things are then well.

The Ice/Fire song has not happened yet. Jon will be on ONE side of that, not both. IMO. Cheers.

I tend to agree that Jon is all Ice myself,but a reminder just in case this means anything.Per the WB coutesy of the Maester from Dorne(forgot his name).Dorne is hot as the North is cold,they are opposites so Dorne also has a fire motif going on it's just not the Targs.What i like about this is we have a First Man house that has that motif.

ETA: Lol i'm not giving up on Jon being the original Aegon either.

[WeaselPie]

I tend to agree that Jon is all Ice myself,but a reminder just in case this means anything.Per the WB coutesy of the Maester from Dorne(forgot his name).Dorne is hot as the North is cold,they are opposites so Dorne also has a fire motif going on it's just not the Targs.What i like about this is we have a First Man house that has that motif.

Jon has "MORE of the North in him."

[Black Crow]

Anyone can hold and wield Dawn. It is just a sword after all. Jaime can use it. But he CANNOT be the Sword of the Morning. The Sword of the Morning is an OFFICE. It's a title, that is conferred ONLY upon a member of House Dayne BY the authority of House Dayne.

Exactly so. Jaime may be destined for his own apotheosis but not as Sword of the Morning. As the debate goes on the more convinced I am that will eventually fall to Jon, but the sword business need not be exclusive. The last hero was so-called only because he was the last of thirteen; both maester Aemon and Rhaegar spoke of three; and there are other numbers scattered through the book. We need not necessarily therefore look for a single hero wielding a sword but perhaps a band of them.

[wolfmaid7]

Jon has "MORE of the North in him."

Word!

[Black Crow]

Word!

Indeed, which is why casting him as a lost Targaryen prince would completely overturn him as a character and make no sense in relation to the synopsis. The story is about the Starks and the Lannisters with the Targaryen Dragonlords as outsiders.

[superunknown5]

How long the darkness endured no man can say, but all agree that it was only when a great warrior—known variously as Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser—arose to give courage to the race of men and lead the virtuous into battle with his blazing sword Lightbringer that the darkness was put to rout, and light and love returned once more to the world. - TWOIAF

Eldric Shadowchaser? Eldric sounds like a name for a Dayne if ever I heard one. The current lord of House Dayne, is Edric Dayne. There is also menion of an Ulrick Dayne in The Sworn Sword.

[Black Crow]

And Elric of Melnibone was the guy with the demonic soul-drinking sword :cool4:

[Not to mention of course Ulrich von Bek]

I'd be wary though given that Messrs Martin, Garcia and Antonsson admitted having great fun finding names for all those new characters populating the World Book.

[superunknown5]

And Elric of Melnibone was the guy with the demonic soul-drinking sword :cool4:

[Not to mention of course Ulrich von Bek]

I'd be wary though given that Messrs Martin, Garcia and Antonsson admitted having great fun finding names for all those new characters populating the World Book.

I always am. :cool4:

You may have a point, though. Elio and Linda are fond of the Daynes. They may have thrown a Dayneish name in there for that reason. Mmm. Dayneish. *Homer Simpson drool*

And, to your point, Eldric Shadowchaser is very similar to Elric Stormbringer. Neat.

[PrettyPig]

I love posts like this. Love it. And thanks for the shout out about the KoW denying Guest Right. Your posts are terrific.

I was thinking, which I'm sure a few people might be rolling their eyes to hear, but about that ice and fire thing... Rhaegar puts tsoiaf in a single person, Aegon. A fire parent and a sun and spear parent, who more importantly perhaps has Rhoynish "water magic" (see Garin) blood. This is why for many years I was certain Jon is the true Aegon (eh, I haven't put that aside entirely, anyway...)

If Rhaegar's son Aegon was/is TWTWP, and he needed three heads of the dragon to fight the enemy, I can only presume Rhaegar had information about the enemy of his super special son, conceived during a comet.

What if Rhaegar was tying to pre-empt his sons battle with his enemy, and possibly cheat the prophecy, by kidnapping the woman carrying it?

If Aegon is tsoiaf, he can't be the only one playing. Otherwise, what is the point of a magical dragon-riding trifecta?

Let's put it this way, if the IceLyannaFireRhaegar baby was supposed to be the balance, it certainly has not worked. How would that work? Jon is exposed as the Ice/Fire baby and suddenly all is right with the world? I can't wrap my head around that considering the coming conflicts. I don't expect anyone to drop their weapons and bend the knee if the big reveal is RLJ, and all manner of things are then well.

The Ice/Fire song has not happened yet. Jon will be on ONE side of that, not both. IMO. Cheers.

Thanks! And likewise on the posts - much of my own crackpot has origin in yours. :cheers:

Agree on Jon not being a Balance baby if in fact he is ice/fire.....I suspect he may actually the IMbalance baby at least as far as the

involved powers are concerned.

Re: Rhaegar on a quest to gather opposing elemental forces, I mentioned several threads back that as he saw AEGON as his PtwP and was determined to fulfill prophecy, he may have considered it his personal mission to “make” the nemesis as well….Aegon can’t be a hero if there’s no threat to be the hero against, right? Hence, kidnapping a female of the opposing elemental and raping her to produce the antagonist spawn.

Otoh, his trying to preempt the prophecy of an elemental antihero by kidnapping the pregnant mother and her unborn child also makes total sense and plays out perfectly with the whole prophecy being a fickle bitch angle – remember George’s tale of the guy dying under the sign? By trying to avoid it, we may end up bringing it to pass. Great thought.

Also, if Rhaegar was trying to circumvent fate in such a way, it makes sense to 1) hide away in Dorne, 2) keep 3 KG to guard “it”, 3) instruct those KG to ensure that “it” doesn’t get away, 4) have Ned hide “it” away in WF until “it” has a chance to go to the Wall. (That may knock Rhaegar out of the paternity park though…so maybe your idea of Lyanna mating with an Other is back in action.)

Either way, it dovetails with my thought that whatever Jon *is*, Jon wasn’t supposed to happen – in the words of Haggon he is an abomination, an affront to some gods or other, and all of the secrecy around his origins goes back to keeping the knowledge of these combined elements away from the wrong power. It also circles back to Rhaegar's involvement in some way or another, which all in all still seems likely/plausible to me.

[WeaselPie]

Thanks! And likewise on the posts - much of my own crackpot has origin in yours. :cheers:

Agree on Jon not being a Balance baby if in fact he is ice/fire.....I suspect he may actually the IMbalance baby at least as far as the

involved powers are concerned.

Re: Rhaegar on a quest to gather opposing elemental forces, I mentioned several threads back that as he saw AEGON as his PtwP and was determined to fulfill prophecy, he may have considered it his personal mission to “make” the nemesis as well….Aegon can’t be a hero if there’s no threat to be the hero against, right? Hence, kidnapping a female of the opposing elemental and raping her to produce the antagonist spawn.

Otoh, his trying to preempt the prophecy of an elemental antihero by kidnapping the pregnant mother and her unborn child also makes total sense and plays out perfectly with the whole prophecy being a fickle bitch angle – remember George’s tale of the guy dying under the sign? By trying to avoid it, we may end up bringing it to pass. Great thought.

Also, if Rhaegar was trying to circumvent fate in such a way, it makes sense to 1) hide away in Dorne, 2) keep 3 KG to guard “it”, 3) instruct those KG to ensure that “it” doesn’t get away, 4) have Ned hide “it” away in WF until “it” has a chance to go to the Wall. (That may knock Rhaegar out of the paternity park though…so maybe your idea of Lyanna mating with an Other is back in action.)

Either way, it dovetails with my thought that whatever Jon *is*, Jon wasn’t supposed to happen – in the words of Haggon he is an abomination, an affront to some gods or other, and all of the secrecy around his origins goes back to keeping the knowledge of these combined elements away from the wrong power. It also circles back to Rhaegar's involvement in some way or another, which all in all still seems likely/plausible to me.

And how about this angle. This is a little bizarro, but I talked about this maybe 5-6 heresies ago. If you do a search for "pale blue" (like Other blood, the Wall, Lyanna's roses, the fire on Jaime's dream swords), these words are almost always in an interesting context. Like this one regarding putting a hit on Dany:

Ser Barristan Selmy raised his pale blue eyes from the table and said, "Your Grace, there is honor in facing an enemy on the battlefield, but none in killing him in his mother's womb. Forgive me, but I must stand with Lord Eddard."

Sooo not so out there to reason that the KG were hanging around waiting for the nemesis babe to be born while the whole event was guarded with a very particular sword (why else would GRRM make such a big deal of the sword if it were not tied into the events?)... a sword that Eddard made sure stayed far, far away from the babe after the fact.

(for the record, I think the KG were also guarding the true Aegon, hence Dorne).

Anyhoo, was the plan to keep this otherbabe a hostage? Kill it so that Aegon could live without the threat? Dunno.

But I think one key element to the events of the ToJ (and environs) is that Arthur Dayne was there with a very special unique mysterious sword named Dawn. The more I think about this, the more those events cannot be explained without taking the presence of Dawn into consideration.

Combined with the "far away" comment and my annoying rambles about Gorne's Way. Voila.

ETA an argument against RLJ is that the KG would have no way of knowing if "Rhaegar's fetus with Lyanna" would be born alive or male for all those months. The impending babe being the nemesis, combined with Barristan's honor speech... then the waiting around makes sense.

[superunknown5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormbringer

Stormbringer has a "brother" sword named Mournblade - Wikipedia

The Sword of the Mourning anyone?

[WeaselPie]

Speaking of Morning and Dawn, what is up with the Evenstar of Evenfall Hall? Winterfell, Starfall and Evenfall sound like a matched set. House Tarth has sun as well as the moon as it's sigil. Selwyn always has singers around, and agrees to a midnight meeting (in a grove, no less) with Davos.

Ties up Brienne as part of the puzzle very neatly. Dawn (Jaime) and Evening (Brienne).

From World

Once kings in their own right, the Lords of Tarth still style themselves "the Evenstar," a title that they claim goes back unto the dawn of days.

[wolfmaid7]

Indeed, which is why casting him as a lost Targaryen prince would completely overturn him as a character and make no sense in relation to the synopsis. The story is about the Starks and the Lannisters with the Targaryen Dragonlords as outsiders.

Yep agree 100%.

[Voice]

Late reply...busy day...

My problem with this remains the view that you are drawing a false distinction between your "ancient others" and the white walkers. We know for certain now that the others/white walkers are indeed a different kind of life - ice made flesh and held together by magic. That obviously does require someone to work that magic but there seems no reason at all to doubt that party "made" the first others/white walkers as well as the present ones. Having assured us that the walkers are created by magic and are not a separate race it makes no sense to introduce "another" separate race rather than keep the whole thing in-house and look for the sorcerers within the story, whether they be the children or any else

I am not drawing a distinction between archaic others/white walkers, and modern... I think you are slightly misunderstanding my theory. Not by much, but just enough to confuse my meaning. I think our current white walkers are identical to the white walkers that came in the long night. They are all "the neverborn" and are made in precisely the same way, wield the same cold longswords, ride the same dead mounts, speak the same crackling language.

That obviously does require someone to work that magic but there seems no reason at all to doubt that party "made" the first others/white walkers as well as the present ones.

I think you're slightly misunderstanding my theory. Not by much, but there is a discrepancy... I think our current white walkers are identical to the white walkers that came in the long night. They are all "the neverborn" and are made in precisely the same way, wield the same cold longswords, ride the same dead mounts, speak the same crackling language.

But as you say, it "obviously does require someone to work that magic." And it is here where we differ. GRRM tells us who is working that magic though:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

Of course, I've been telling the interwebs this for a while, but I guess I can understand it if people don't trust my theories as much as the author's words :)

1-Inhuman Others.... "raise" 2-wights "and" 3-white walkers

It isn't just my querulous semantic interpretation anymore ;) The author himself identifies elder "half forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others" raising "legions" of the other two. Like I've been saying all along, Old Nan was right.

What I think you are missing, is that the elder rank within the hierarchy are only seen in Winter, which of course, has only just arrived. That means we haven't seen them yet, as the events (including our two glimpses of white walkers) of the first 5 books only occur during summer and spring. The author states they "prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter."

Sounds pretty clear to me.

Having assured us that the walkers are created by magic and are not a separate race it makes no sense to introduce "another" separate race rather than keep the whole thing in-house and look for the sorcerers within the story, whether they be the children or any else

I think you will be disappointed on this front. Our beloved author is not restricted by what you think makes sense. It makes complete sense to me, for there to be an elder branch of Others raising the undead and the neverborn, and I'm not alone. And his 1993 letter directly supports my theory.

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

I know you prefer the three-fingered lot being behind the Others/white walkers, but there are fundamental issues with that theory. The first of which being, GRRM has said that the Others can do things with Ice that we can only imagine. We've yet to see that btw, and the children wield no such power over Ice. I know you prefer to think they helped build the Wall, but according to canon, First Men built it. We've nothing in the text to connect the magics of "those who sing the song of earth" ...to Ice.

I agree with this,i think all players are and have always been in the story.I get what Voice is trying to say,but i think in the end the "Ancient Others" is just an Old Power.

:cheers: An old power, indeed. And I also agree they "are and always have been in the story." As you yourself often point out, we've only seen white walkers twice in five books. Is it so hard to imagine we've yet to see who's making them? Old Nan has clearly foreshadowed a greater threat than Sers Puddles and Crackles. So has Samwell... That's two. Beyond the page, I'm not alone anymore ;) GRRM himself has given the old power a more tangible incarnation than you are suggesting, as early as 1993: "...half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others..."

[Voice]

Indeed, which is why casting him as a lost Targaryen prince would completely overturn him as a character and make no sense in relation to the synopsis. The story is about the Starks and the Lannisters with the Targaryen Dragonlords as outsiders.

:agree: LOL

If he were a lost Targaryen prince, it would indeed overturn him as a character. He will never sit the IT. But if he were not a princeling, but a "Targaryen bastard" how does that development overturn him as a character?

[Balerion06]

:agree: LOL

If he were a lost Targaryen prince, it would indeed overturn him as a character. He will never sit the IT. But if he were not a princeling, but a "Targaryen bastard" how does that development overturn him as a character?

It doesn't really overturn him as a character per se. For me, it just comes across as somewhat degrading to Ned's own progeny.

"Hey, guess what kiddos? Turns out someone with half the opposing element in him is more of the North and Starky than y'all!"

Plus I don't know why Rhaegar would really want a Stark-Targaryen child. Even after he met Lyanna at the Tourney of Harrenhal, he believed that Aegon was the Prince that was Promised (if we go by the HotU vision). He only needs a third child, and any woman could do that for him. There's nothing to indicate that between Aegon's birth and Rhaegar's disappearance with Lyanna that he had a revelation that he needed a child of Ice, because as far as he was concerned, the Song of Ice and Fire belonged to Aegon.

As others have posted, perhaps he was trying to conceive an "enemy" for Aegon. But then you really don't wanna give the future Big Bad your own blood coz then he might just end up with a dragon of his own.

So, personally, I don't see why he'd want a child with Lyanna. If it was love, then he's an idiot. If it was for prophecy and a third head, then he's also an idiot, because by his own criteria any woman would do.

[wolfmaid7]

:cheers: An old power, indeed. And I also agree they "are and always have been in the story." As you yourself often point out, we've only seen white walkers twice in five books. Is it so hard to imagine we've yet to see who's making them? Old Nan has clearly foreshadowed a greater threat than Sers Puddles and Crackles. So has Samwell... That's two. Beyond the page, I'm not alone anymore ;) GRRM himself has given the old power a more tangible incarnation than you are suggesting, as early as 1993: "...half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others..."

The bolded part is where i agree and disagree as it's a matter of "who" the Others really are.I don't think the Others are a separate race or that they are a "they".I think what behind the raising of the wights and the wws is just another greenseer that's of the cold persuation and he is the NK/CHs which ever name you prefer.

If we look at how GRRM's work has progress we see the idea of identity and the internal struggle of humans woven within it.And this is not a story in my mind where the inhuman demons are without but within,there is a human heart and face be it corrupted or not at the root of this tale. I think the Others have evolved from being inhuman demons ,to being humans corrupted by their own internal demons aided by the misuse of magic is where the story is....But hey i could be wrong.

[addicted to snow]

I always saw the flaming Dondarrion sword to be a trick since he was with Thoros this whole time who used to do that to his own sword in tourneys and such. And now that Thoros (a red priest) can raise the dead through his sorcery, perhaps he can do more with fire than he could before. How did Melisandre get that eagle to catch fire? It could be the same trick. Maybe it could also be some sort of clue as to how the fire magic works since unBeric uses his own blood on the sword, so who knows?

But another thing to consider is that this happened at the high hill, no? Isn't that a cave with a bunch of weirwood roots too? hmmmmmm

No trick, Those who carry the 'kiss of life' can cause weapons to burn with their blood... This is how Catelyn (lady Stoneheart) is nissa nissa...

[Voice]

The bolded part is where i agree and disagree as it's a matter of "who" the Others really are.I don't think the Others are a separate race or that they are a "they".I think what behind the raising of the wights and the wws is just another greenseer that's of the cold persuation and he is the NK/CHs which ever name you prefer.

If we look at how GRRM's work has progress we see the idea of identity and the internal struggle of humans woven within it.And this is not a story in my mind where the inhuman demons are without but within,there is a human heart and face be it corrupted or not at the root of this tale. I think the Others have evolved from being inhuman demons ,to being humans corrupted by their own internal demons aided by the misuse of magic is where the story is....But hey i could be wrong.

I don't disagree, without a doubt the threat they pose from the north represent an internal struggle. But, I think it's pretty clear that in this case, they are more that merely inner demons. Inner demons, we got. We have them in plenty. One does not build a huge Wall to keep out inner demons. No, in this case, we're talking about the greatest danger of all...

"The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."" -- These are not intangibles. These are not concepts. These are not merely conflicts of the human heart. These are not, as you state in boldface, "inhuman demons," these are "half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others."

Per GRRM, it is they who "raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn." That isn't an interpretation, that's literally what the author states. You may argue things have changed since 1993. And I would agree. The paragraph BC adheres to regarding Jon+Arya has changed more than any other. But as I stated back in Heresy 100 and something ;) Bran draws the same distinction:

“Oh, my sweet summer child,” Old Nan said quietly, “what do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.”

“You mean the Others,” Bran said querulously.

“The Others,” Old Nan agreed.