Heresy 162

[wolfmaid7]

I don't disagree, without a doubt the threat they pose from the north represent an internal struggle. But, I think it's pretty clear that in this case, they are more that merely inner demons. Inner demons, we got. We have them in plenty. One does not build a huge Wall to keep out inner demons. No, in this case, we're talking about the greatest danger of all...

"The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."" -- These are not intangibles. These are not concepts. These are not merely conflicts of the human heart. These are not, as you state in boldface, "inhuman demons," these are "half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others."

Per GRRM, it is they who "raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn." That isn't an interpretation, that's literally what the author states. You may argue things have changed since 1993. And I would agree. The paragraph BC adheres to regarding Jon+Arya has changed more than any other. But as I stated back in Heresy 100 and something ;) Bran draws the same distinction:

“Oh, my sweet summer child,” Old Nan said quietly, “what do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.”

“You mean the Others,” Bran said querulously.

“The Others,” Old Nan agreed.

Voice .Your still missing it....Who are the Others? Who you think they are(inhuman half-forgotten demons) and who i say they are(human in originGS) is different for sure.GRRM has already given us clues into exactly who "they" are and what they are have grown from "demons".

The Others are already here.The icy wind is all ready howling from the North,wws and wights have already been raised, Direwolves are already growing gaunt and the white walkers are already walking in the woods the nights are already growing longer and fear is already took root.

And when the snows fall 100ft deep if there happen to be ice spiders the only thing that will be riding them is other wws or whoever the NK have with him as back-up.

Yeah i'd argue that the manifestation of the Others is probably different,the story has evolved to take on the form where things are "human" in origin.

I know what the author said and more importantly i know "how" he says it.Which brings me back to this point i think you'll be disappointed when your Others show up and they "aren't really demons".Just human changellings/GS who have been changed/corrupted and have corrupted others while using the skinchanging gifts to their benefit.

[superunknown5]

I don't disagree, without a doubt the threat they pose from the north represent an internal struggle. But, I think it's pretty clear that in this case, they are more that merely inner demons. Inner demons, we got. We have them in plenty. One does not build a huge Wall to keep out inner demons. No, in this case, we're talking about the greatest danger of all...

"The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."" -- These are not intangibles. These are not concepts. These are not merely conflicts of the human heart. These are not, as you state in boldface, "inhuman demons," these are "half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others."

Per GRRM, it is they who "raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn." That isn't an interpretation, that's literally what the author states. You may argue things have changed since 1993. And I would agree. The paragraph BC adheres to regarding Jon+Arya has changed more than any other. But as I stated back in Heresy 100 and something ;) Bran draws the same distinction:

“Oh, my sweet summer child,” Old Nan said quietly, “what do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.”

“You mean the Others,” Bran said querulously.

“The Others,” Old Nan agreed.

George has been pretty adamant about his disdain for generic LOTR orc rip offs with their uninspired armies of Pure Evil™. And yet, the synopsis speaks of "inhuman others". And it would seem based on the story so far, that's more or less what we're getting, complete with the big epic battle scenes that go with it. I think GRRM is walking a very tricky tightrope here, by trying to construct these "inhuman others" as something more three dimensional, while also satisfying the audience's desire for big, bloody set pieces that are against, for want of a better phrase, evil straw target dummies.

I think that while there will undoubtedly be plenty of spectacle in these last two books, it won't come in the form of the Good Guys™ merely "setting them up and knocking them down", so to speak. But I'm honestly not sure what that's going to look like, who the Others are, and most crucially of all, what drives them that makes them more than just easy orc-style villains. And yet we have the fire side to reckon with as well. The dragons seem to be mere magical beasts who seem to have no agenda of their own beyond instinct, survival and sustenance.

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say it's more about the Ice and the Fire creatures (and magic more generally) as being metaphors for the external forces that rage chaotically around us like storms. That's why George links magic to the seasons. We cannot CHANGE or CONTROL the seasons. We can only endure them.

Ice represents reason, logic, dispassion, patience, fairness, etc. Fire represents emotion, desire, passion, love, selfishness, loyalty, etc. The question is not can these forces be "defeated" or "balanced" or "put to rights" or WHATEVER. These forces are NOT within our control. The question is, how do our intrepid heroes, Tyrion, Dany, Jon, Arya, Bran, Sansa, etc. WEATHER these forces WITHIN their own hearts, and flourish (or falter) accordingly based on who they are, what they want, and what they choose? And what are the consequences of these inner struggles based on how the world works (according to GRRM)?

[Phillip Frye]

However, my other pet theory is that Dawn is in Winterfell in Lyanna's crypt.

I would caution my fellow heretics about placing things in Lyanna's crypt, especially given how much fun we have had mocking the harp.

[Phillip Frye]

Alternatively... an odd little thought occurred to me about these swords.

I've just introduced elder son to Moorcock and to the demonic blade "Stormbringer" - drinks the souls of those it cuts. Valyrian blades were forged in the daemonic fires of Valyria using magic and no doubt blood as well. Are they intrinsically evil in a way that Dawn is not?

Also, don't forget Anglachel, which I think is more apt in this case. Say, what was Anglachel forged from again?

[Voice]

Voice .Your still missing it....Who are the Others?Who you think they are and who i say they are is different for sure.GRRM has already given us clues into exactly who "they" are.

The Others are already here.The icy wind is all ready howling from the North,wws and wights have already been raised, Direwolves are already growing gaunt and the white walkers are already walking in the woods the nights are already growing longer and fear is already took root.

And when the snows fall 100ft deep if there happen to be ice spiders the only thing that will be riding them is other wws or whoever the NK have with him as back-up.

I think I get it. I'm just surprised you disagree with someone pointing out that not only is the lumping together of terms going to bite a few folks around here in the arse, the author has given them more to bite with than just the wind itself. The white walkers are the neverborn, the undead are wights, the "inhuman others" are "the Others." GRRM says, quite literally, that it is this latter group that is raising legions of the other two.

This latter group are "the Others" that Bran querulously=corrected Old Nan about...

Looks like I first defended this position here in Heresy 118 and 119. Good times.

The Others are already here.The icy wind is all ready howling from the North,wws and wights have already been raised, Direwolves are already growing gaunt and the white walkers are already walking in the woods the nights are already growing longer and fear is already took root.

The bolded statement is directly contradicted by the letter:

"...the inhuman others [...] prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life.""

Icy summer winds =/= TWOW... no matter how much they howl.

Wights and white walkers are raised specifically because they can endure warmer climates. The Others only came in the long night, rather than Summer or Fall. I remind you that the two sightings of white walkers we've seen have been during warmer seasons. The first, when the Wall was weeping during the long hot summer. Old Nan told us:

“Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks.” Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, “So, child. Thisis the sort of story you like?”

“Well,” Bran said reluctantly, “yes, only...”

Old Nan nodded. “In that darkness, the Others came for the first time...”

GRRM clearly backs up her version:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

As you well know, The Winds of Winter isn't here yet :cool4: GRRM isn't writing the story we want. He's writing the story he wants to tell.

And when the snows fall 100ft deep if there happen to be ice spiders the only thing that will be riding them is other wws or whoever the NK have with him as back-up.

White walkers we've seen. They ride dead mounts. If they and the Others are one and the same, why haven't they ridden Ice Spiders yet? There's been plenty of snow during the summer and fall for them to tread upon...

Why is there mention of dragonsteel slaying Others, yet dragonglass seems to suffice against white walkers?

And, per GRRM, how have we seen them already, if they are "preparing" to "ride down on the winds of winter" which just so happens to be the name of the "third volume" (aka...when Winter actually Comes).

It's understandable folks doubt their existence... They are "half-forgotten demons out of legend" after all... but don't say Old Nan, Samwell, and I didn't warn you ;)

[King Tyrion XX]

Couple things to note about this:

1. It doesn't work like a normal engine, with loose search terms. If you search for "brother's lie" it will find nothing, because it's searching for that exact phrase, not those two terms.

2. If search results go past a certain number, it will simply stop functioning.

Ok #2 makes a Adobe Reader with a pdf copy handy to keep around.

[Eira Seren]

Good morning heretics! Well it's almost noon, but hey, I just woke up so...

I used to group Beric in an odd men out group with Coldhands and Stoneheart. Obviously, there were some problems with that. Stoneheart is a woman, first of all. Coldhands is cold.

Beric is very unique. His blood is hot. It isn't a bubbling, smoking, black tar, like our corrupted shadowbinder Mel's blood. It is simply hot, like a living man's blood. While Coldhands exhibits signs of corpse-hood, blood coagulation and the smell of death, Beric exhibits scars. That means Beric is truly alive. He doesn't have a huge appetite, but he'll eat and drink wine on occasion. His body is functioning, rather than being maintained by magic alone. Magic has only returned the will to function to his body.

You guys know I'm big on classifying these guys, and I tend to split semantic hairs quite obsessively, but hey, someone has to... Anyway, this has led me to group Beric, and likely Stoneheart, much differently.

Beric's body lives again.

Coldhands' body does not.

We also learn from Beric that each time he returns he feels like less of himself... diminished... I think that is because he is only his living body. His brain retains his memories and identity, but it is fading because his soul no longer invigorates them. I propose his soul moved on with his first death.

If a kiss restores Jon, it will no longer be Jon. His blood will remain hot. He'll laugh with his brother on occasion, and share their table. But it will be hollow. He'll have a long face, grey eyes so dark they look almost black, and remember who he was, but he will not be Jon. Ghost will no longer be bound to him, nor like him much. And Ghost was conspicuously absent from his side when Jon had his armored in black ice dream.

Now, thankfully, that need not happen as GRRM has given us that "so you think he's dead, do you" quote.

So getting back to Coldhands and Stoneheart. Catelyn endured her corpse-hood for longer than Beric, so she decomposed a bit more, and her body was waterlogged. She shows signs of this, but I have a feeling her body is functioning again, just less well. Like someone who's been severely injured, and then only half-recovered. But her blood is undoubtedly hot, and her soul has undoubtedly moved on. She remembers her life, remembers who she was, because that data is stored in her brain tissue...as it was for Beric. But her soul has moved on. She was never a forgiving person, but now she's Lady Stoneheart. I'm surprised she never came up in my Bran's Vision thread as the third shadow at the Trident. Anyway, she's alive now. As her rasping voice implies the passage of air, and therefore, inhalation and exhalation.

Anyway, back to Coldhands. Magic alone maintains his body. His body is dead, moveable like a puppet on strings, but not living. His body cannot heal, nor even breathe. The smell of cold death clings to him. But, rather than being a living vessel without a soul, he is a dead vessel with a living soul. That honestly sounds like a preferable existence, strange as it may be.

This brings me to wights and white walkers, and it's something I've brought up before in reference to Ancient Others, hierarchical discussions, and the ice golem idea.

Wights are not living dead, only reanimated dead. Though characters assume they remembered LC Mormont, and wanted to attack him, I've been saying for a while that I think that assumption is wrong. The force than animates them knows who Mormont was, and wanted him dead. Wish granted. Anyway, wights are not like Beric and Stoneheart. Their bodies, while somewhat mobile, do not live again. They are not like Coldhands, their souls do not endure. In this way, they are far more like golems than popsicles are. Golems do not speak. Speaking of popsicles...

White walkers are not dead. Yet they do not live as we live. They are inhuman, another form of life. One, that does not depend on biological functions to thrive. In place of biological functions, they have magical innards. Being the unnatural, half-forgotten, demons of legend they are, they cannot sustain life doing all the same, fun ;) biological activities we are blessed with. In the stead, they are neverborn. How do neverborn propagate? Well, they clearly take no wives and father no sons, so they must harvest the living. Craster's cannot have been the only sons they've harvested. We've seen no dead babies in the wildling camps, and no infant wights...nor even child-wights.

So while Beric and Stoneheart are soul-less living flesh, wights are soul-less reanimated flesh, white walkers are living souls given full-grown sidhe, neverborn, bodies made of ice. Unlike Mel's shadowbabies, procured from a living man's seed, but like them, they stand as tall as a man and know how to swing a blade. Also, unlike them, they have physical bodies. Hell, they even have a soul. It just wasn't always their own :devil: This explains why they have identities, language, humor, and laughter. That's more than we can say of Lady Stoneheart.

Here's where my ideas may become less popular... The Others that first came in the long night, my Ancient Others, predate this process. They are not spoken of in the same manner as white walkers. They hunt using ice spiders. They were not called "shadows" as their thralls were. Rather than being vulnerable to a substance called dragonglass...they were vulnerable to a substance called dragonsteel. The 1993 letter makes it clear that it is they who raise the neverborn. The show may have spoiled this, but in any case, we have it from the author now:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

Now, the neverborn term makes a lot more sense. They are not merely ice golems. They are an entirely new form of life. Or, at least it used to be new...back when the Ancient Others first made them. In past heresies and my hierarchy thread I've laid out the military advantages of this process. Ancient Others command and gather intelligence. White walkers are field infantry (haha, infants!), and wights are at times cannon fodder, at others vanguard, and at others boobytraps. Ancient Others are least expendable...they cannot be replaced or recreated. White walkers are expendable, but not without inconvenience...gotta go collect another babe in the woods every time you make a new one. And wights are as numerous as corpses on a battlefield...toss a few dozen at the Fist, just for shits and giggles.

About cat... I think the only part of her that comes back is the coldness and the stone part because that is the essence of what she was becoming in life. Possibly a little punishment for her treatment of Jon.

Beric is quite the opposite, for good reasons

[Phillip Frye]

I have been thinking about R+L=J. This is one of the older theories in the general forums. I think that version 1.0 appeared in 2006, which was well before Martin published A Dance with Dragons. What is interesting is that almost everyone here in Heresy thinks that the monomaniacal fruitcake being Jon Snow's father is not very important. Instead, what is important is that he is the son of Lyanna and the son of Winterfell, instead of some moldy old parchment and a harp on Lyanna's tomb making him the son of Rhaegar.

However, there is a character for whom being the son of Rhaegar Targaryen is of the utmost importance, whom Martin introduced in 2010: fAegon. If he is not the son of Rhaegar, fAegon is nothing (except a cheesemonger's son). Even if he finds out that Rhaegar is not his father, he will certainly keep up the pretense that he is the lost heir to the throne because all of his chips are in the middle of the table.

Aren't the inhabitants of the Crystal Palace of the general forums eager to claim that fAegon is a fake? They should be. If fAegon is really Rhaegar's son, then Jon Snow, the True King and Dragonrider, is even further down the line of succession.

So, we know that the conventional proponents of R+L=J consider Jon's lineage from Rhaegar to be of the utmost importance because Good King Jon is destined to rule the realm with Good Queen Fire 'n' Blood. However, Martin's wife, Parris, has stated that this is too obvious, and Martin doesn't do obvious.

So a few years after R+L=J takes off, and people begin to get excited about harps on tombs, and talk of moldy parchments fill the forums, all because of the monomaniacal fruitcake is the father of Jon Snow. So, in the very next book, Martin introduces a character who must be the son of Rhaegar to sit on the Iron Throne. Who here thinks that things are going to work out well for fAegon in the end?

I am not asserting this as fact, but it almost looks as if Martin is choosing to mock those who place so much emphasis on Rhaegar by introducing a character who needs to be Rhaegar's son and leading him to a bad end as the Mummer's Dragon. This would be a world-class trolling of the faithful.

[Phillip Frye]

Another thought: the "sister" of Jon Snow who has actually developed longing for him is Sansa (at the Eyrie), despite Sansa's coolness towards him when they lived together at Winterfell. I wonder if Martin would consider substituting Sansa (who is actually married to Tyrion) for Arya as the potential love triangle member in the last few books. Sansa would be of a much more appropriate age than Arya for this romance.

[wolfmaid7]

I think I get it. I'm just surprised you disagree with someone pointing out that not only is the lumping together of terms going to bite a few folks around here in the arse, the author has given them more to bite with than just the wind itself. The white walkers are the neverborn, the undead are wights, the "inhuman others" are "the Others." GRRM says, quite literally, that it is this latter group that is raising legions of the other two.

This latter group are "the Others" that Bran querulously=corrected Old Nan about...

Looks like I first defended this position here in Heresy 118 and 119. Good times.

The bolded statement is directly contradicted by the letter:

"...the inhuman others [...] prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life.""

Icy summer winds =/= TWOW... no matter how much they howl.

Wights and white walkers are raised specifically because they can endure warmer climates. The Others only came in the long night, rather than Summer or Fall. I remind you that the two sightings of white walkers we've seen have been during warmer seasons. The first, when the Wall was weeping during the long hot summer. Old Nan told us:

“Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks.” Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, “So, child. Thisis the sort of story you like?”

“Well,” Bran said reluctantly, “yes, only...”

Old Nan nodded. “In that darkness, the Others came for the first time...”

GRRM clearly backs up her version:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

As you well know, The Winds of Winter isn't here yet :cool4: GRRM isn't writing the story we want. He's writing the story he wants to tell.

White walkers we've seen. They ride dead mounts. If they and the Others are one and the same, why haven't they ridden Ice Spiders yet? There's been plenty of snow during the summer and fall for them to tread upon...

Why is there mention of dragonsteel slaying Others, yet dragonglass seems to suffice against white walkers?

And, per GRRM, how have we seen them already, if they are "preparing" to "ride down on the winds of winter" which just so happens to be the name of the "third volume" (aka...when Winter actually Comes).

It's understandable folks doubt their existence... They are "half-forgotten demons out of legend" after all... but don't say Old Nan, Samwell, and I didn't warn you ;)

Voice i'm not saying that the wws and the Others are the same thing.I never have and still don't think they are.But i see the same problem with the term in your arguement as well.You are doing the same thing i think the people of Westeros did with the term,which was in this case put a name to a being they already knew and were familiar with but didn't know they knew it because they fell out of memory.

So let me get this,you have created an entire species of "Others" on the grounds that you haven't seen "something" weird ride an ice spider yet?I'm saying if ice spiders do show up in the story it would be because the Others/gs made them because they can do s**t with ice and they have wws riding them or the NK and his posse are riding them.It makes no difference it will still be the same power at work.Just a cold version to what Bran and BR are.I'm saying they aren't demons or something alien again they are humans warped.BR became a tree and his counterpart became whatever he would look like when we see him.

As to the Dragonsteel whatever that is,maybe its what could break his hold on his thralls and kill him.Which seems most logical.

Voice wights and wws were not raised specifically because they can withstand warm temp....I'm not even going to address what's wrong with that statement.

A question you do know "inhuman" doesn't neccessarily mean "not human" do you?Ahhh wait a bit:

in·hu·man

inˈ(h)yo͞omən/

adjective

1. 1.

   lacking human qualities of compassion and mercy; cruel and barbaric.

   synonyms: cruel, harsh, inhumane, brutal, callous, sadistic, severe, savage,vicious, barbaric; More

2. 2.

   not human in nature or character.

   "the inhuman scale of the dinosaurs"

   synonyms: superhuman, unearthly, extraordinary, phenomenal, exceptional,incredible, unbelievable

   "he ran at an inhuman pace"

[markg171]

I have been thinking about R+L=J. This is one of the older theories in the general forums. I think that version 1.0 appeared in 2006, which was well before Martin published A Dance with Dragons. What is interesting is that almost everyone here in Heresy thinks that the monomaniacal fruitcake being Jon Snow's father is not very important. Instead, what is important is that he is the son of Lyanna and the son of Winterfell, instead of some moldy old parchment and a harp on Lyanna's tomb making him the son of Rhaegar.

However, there is a character for whom being the son of Rhaegar Targaryen is of the utmost importance, whom Martin introduced in 2010: fAegon. If he is not the son of Rhaegar, fAegon is nothing (except a cheesemonger's son). Even if he finds out that Rhaegar is not his father, he will certainly keep up the pretense that he is the lost heir to the throne because all of his chips are in the middle of the table.

Aren't the inhabitants of the Crystal Palace of the general forums eager to claim that fAegon is a fake? They should be. If fAegon is really Rhaegar's son, then Jon Snow, the True King and Dragonrider, is even further down the line of succession.

So, we know that the conventional proponents of R+L=J consider Jon's lineage from Rhaegar to be of the utmost importance because Good King Jon is destined to rule the realm with Good Queen Fire 'n' Blood. However, Martin's wife, Parris, has stated that this is too obvious, and Martin doesn't do obvious.

So a few years after R+L=J takes off, and people begin to get excited about harps on tombs, and talk of moldy parchments fill the forums, all because of the monomaniacal fruitcake is the father of Jon Snow. So, in the very next book, Martin introduces a character who must be the son of Rhaegar to sit on the Iron Throne. Who here thinks that things are going to work out well for fAegon in the end?

I am not asserting this as fact, but it almost looks as if Martin is choosing to mock those who place so much emphasis on Rhaegar by introducing a character who needs to be Rhaegar's son and leading him to a bad end as the Mummer's Dragon. This would be a world-class trolling of the faithful.

Hey, some of us are still of the believe that Ned really just is Jon's father and that there's not a huge conspiracy going on... :unsure:

[Voice]

About cat... I think the only part of her that comes back is the coldness and the stone part because that is the essence of what she was becoming in life. Possibly a little punishment for her treatment of Jon.

Beric is quite the opposite, for good reasons

Agreed

[Voice]

Voice i'm not saying that the wws and the Others are the same thing.I never have and still don't think they are.But i see the same problem with the term in your arguement as well.You are doing the same thing i think the people of Westeros did with the term,which was in this case put a name to a being they already knew and were familiar with but didn't know they knew it because they fell out of memory.

So let me get this,you have created an entire species of "Others" on the grounds that you haven't seen "something" weird ride an ice spider yet?I'm saying if ice spiders do show up in the story it would be because the Others/gs made them because they can do s**t with ice and they have wws riding them or the NK and his posse are riding them.It makes no difference it will still be the same power at work.Just a cold version to what Bran and BR are.I'm saying they aren't demons or something alien again they are humans warped.BR became a tree and his counterpart became whatever he would look like when we see him.

As to the Dragonsteel whatever that is,maybe its what could break his hold on his thralls and kill him.Which seems most logical.

Voice wights and wws were not raised specifically because they can withstand warm temp....I'm not even going to address what's wrong with that statement.

A question you do know "inhuman" doesn't neccessarily mean "not human" do you?Ahhh wait a bit:

in·hu·man

inˈ(h)yo͞omən/

adjective

• 1.

  lacking human qualities of compassion and mercy; cruel and barbaric.

  synonyms: cruel, harsh, inhumane, brutal, callous, sadistic, severe, savage,vicious, barbaric; More

• 2.

  not human in nature or character.

  "the inhuman scale of the dinosaurs"

  synonyms: superhuman, unearthly, extraordinary, phenomenal, exceptional,incredible, unbelievable

  "he ran at an inhuman pace"

Between the letter and this, it's pretty clear were talking about more than wind:

The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

Edit: and just to clarify, I've proposed a hierarchy. Not a species.

[Black Crow]

So let me get this,you have created an entire species of "Others" on the grounds that you haven't seen "something" weird ride an ice spider yet?I'm saying if ice spiders do show up in the story it would be because the Others/gs made them because they can do s**t with ice

:agree:

As I've remarked before, since the sum total of what we've so far seen in the books amounts to the six who scragged Ser Waymar, and then Ser Puddles - who might well have been one of the original six - it seems a touch premature to draw conclusions based on a lack of spiders "whatever they are"

[Black Crow]

Another thought: the "sister" of Jon Snow who has actually developed longing for him is Sansa (at the Eyrie), despite Sansa's coolness towards him when they lived together at Winterfell. I wonder if Martin would consider substituting Sansa (who is actually married to Tyrion) for Arya as the potential love triangle member in the last few books. Sansa would be of a much more appropriate age than Arya for this romance.

That's an interesting one. It would be a nice twist and would be consistent with the snowflake communion. Sansa took it and Jon will "anon".

[Black Crow]

Between the letter and this, it's pretty clear were talking about more than wind:

The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

"the Sidhe made of ice..."

[Black Crow]

I have been thinking about R+L=J. This is one of the older theories in the general forums. I think that version 1.0 appeared in 2006, which was well before Martin published A Dance with Dragons... This would be a world-class trolling of the faithful.

The theory goes back way before 2006. What is interesting in the context of your post is that we have GRRM's dearly beloved declaring back then that it is too obvious and that he had smiled significantly when she suggested an alternative. Since that point we have had the appearance of a character declared to be Rhaegar's [undoubted] son Aegon, and we have had the reinforced declaration that after [?] Rhaeghar's death, Viserys was declared heir to the Iron Throne, which although not directly impacting on R+L=J in itself does impact very much on R+L=rightful king of Westeros. So far as trolling goes, however, as with the synopsis its very difficult to troll people who stick their fingers in their ears.

[Black Crow]

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say it's more about the Ice and the Fire creatures (and magic more generally) as being metaphors for the external forces that rage chaotically around us like storms. That's why George links magic to the seasons. We cannot CHANGE or CONTROL the seasons. We can only endure them.

Ice represents reason, logic, dispassion, patience, fairness, etc. Fire represents emotion, desire, passion, love, selfishness, loyalty, etc. The question is not can these forces be "defeated" or "balanced" or "put to rights" or WHATEVER. These forces are NOT within our control. The question is, how do our intrepid heroes, Tyrion, Dany, Jon, Arya, Bran, Sansa, etc. WEATHER these forces WITHIN their own hearts, and flourish (or falter) accordingly based on who they are, what they want, and what they choose? And what are the consequences of these inner struggles based on how the world works (according to GRRM)?

I'm very much in agreement with this, hence my argument that it is not a question of Jon [or anyone else] as the chosen hero defeating the big bad. The world is as it is and it is what our characters make of it which is important. Its also significant in this respect that whilst a climactic battle at Winterfell is promised in the synopsis the outcome seemingly depends on those two perilous journeys to the hearts of Ice and of Fire. Exactly what we're to make of them I don't know but whilst this comes against the backdrop of the invasion by the Others it does suggest that the climactic battle may not be a straightforward fight between our five characters [and their followers] and the icy hordes. Perhaps Danaerys the Dragonlord may yet realise that her beasties bite.

[Voice]

George has been pretty adamant about his disdain for generic LOTR orc rip offs with their uninspired armies of Pure Evil™. And yet, the synopsis speaks of "inhuman others". And it would seem based on the story so far, that's more or less what we're getting, complete with the big epic battle scenes that go with it. I think GRRM is walking a very tricky tightrope here, by trying to construct these "inhuman others" as something more three dimensional, while also satisfying the audience's desire for big, bloody set pieces that are against, for want of a better phrase, evil straw target dummies.

You'll hear no argument from me on this front. I think the Others are justice incarnate. Rather than being some ultra-evil caricature, I think they are simply "half-forgotten demons out of legend." Perhaps I am more demented than some, but I don't see legendary demons as being completely bad. Rather, I'd see them as bringing long-forgotten truths to reconcile.

I think that while there will undoubtedly be plenty of spectacle in these last two books, it won't come in the form of the Good Guys™ merely "setting them up and knocking them down", so to speak. But I'm honestly not sure what that's going to look like, who the Others are, and most crucially of all, what drives them that makes them more than just easy orc-style villains. And yet we have the fire side to reckon with as well. The dragons seem to be mere magical beasts who seem to have no agenda of their own beyond instinct, survival and sustenance.

Thus far, white walkers and wights fit the bill for easy orc-style villains wouldn't you say? They're not exactly brimming with depth and intrigue, once you get past their mere existence. I look forward to the Others, as the letter states, representing the true threat to Westeros. Westeros, for Men anyway, was conquered and forged into colonies, then hundreds of kingdoms, then seven kingdoms, then a single commonwealth. At the start, there were no doubt some short-cuts taken, some rules broken, some promise unfulfilled.

Rather than ultra evil caricatures, I see the Others as being a reminder of these mistakes, and rectifiers of them.

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say it's more about the Ice and the Fire creatures (and magic more generally) as being metaphors for the external forces that rage chaotically around us like storms. That's why George links magic to the seasons. We cannot CHANGE or CONTROL the seasons. We can only endure them.

Agreed. Sounds like a song of ice and fire. I've more to say but it's related to your next paragraph:

Ice represents reason, logic, dispassion, patience, fairness, etc. Fire represents emotion, desire, passion, love, selfishness, loyalty, etc. The question is not can these forces be "defeated" or "balanced" or "put to rights" or WHATEVER. These forces are NOT within our control. The question is, how do our intrepid heroes, Tyrion, Dany, Jon, Arya, Bran, Sansa, etc. WEATHER these forces WITHIN their own hearts, and flourish (or falter) accordingly based on who they are, what they want, and what they choose? And what are the consequences of these inner struggles based on how the world works (according to GRRM)?

As you say, Ice represents Ice represents reason, logic, dispassion, patience, fairness, etc. Fire represents emotion, desire, passion, love, selfishness, loyalty, etc. We see this dichotomy, and the struggle between these two opposing forces in absolutely every event and every person in Westeros. Life is ice, logical, dispassionate, until love is kindled. Life is dispassionate, until a war starts, or your sister lifts her skirts. Life is fair and just, until you do your duty and suddenly realize your head is no longer on your shoulders. The song is the game, the song is the clash of kings, the song is the storm of swords, the song is the feast and dance. Nothing gets your blood hot like a game when death is on the line, the clash of vanguard against vanguard, the storm that tears apart the riverlands and forces survivors to survive and the weak to die, feasting and dancing are marks of celebration...but in our universe here, they are also marks of Life and Death. Ice and Fire. White and Red. Bone and Blood. Our waking reason, and dreaming connection to something greater than ourselves.

I am not dismissing the internal struggles evident in the Song. But the people of Westeros have. The Others, have not.

[markg171]

"the Sidhe made of ice..."

Made of ice, but not of ice

The theory goes back way before 2006. What is interesting in the context of your post is that we have GRRM's dearly beloved declaring back then that it is too obvious and that he had smiled significantly when she suggested an alternative. Since that point we have had the appearance of a character declared to be Rhaegar's [undoubted] son Aegon, and we have had the reinforced declaration that after [?] Rhaeghar's death, Viserys was declared heir to the Iron Throne, which although not directly impacting on R+L=J in itself does impact very much on R+L=rightful king of Westeros. So far as trolling goes, however, as with the synopsis its very difficult to troll people who stick their fingers in their ears.

I'd also add that it's not like George can't just change things whenever he wants. I know a lot of fans think that there's tons of Checkov's guns lying around, but at the end of the day, if GRRM decides to just say fuck it and not use a plot point that he might have laid the ground work for, then that's up to him. Which is the problem with using "foreshadowing" and "textual analysis" as evidence for theories: these are not canon until the event or thing actually is written down.

Case in point, the whole Viserys thing. I think that if we actually look at the books with this knowledge framing our research and analysis, there certainly are hints that Viserys was heir all along, and it's not something that GRRM just pulled out of nowhere with the release of the World Book. But even if it's not, I'd like to draw everyone's attention to the appendixes:

From Clash

-{VISERYS}, styling himself King Viserys, the Third of His Name, called the Beggar King, slain in Vaes Dothrak by the hand of Khal Drogo

From Dance

—her brother {VISERYS}, the Third of His Name, called THE BEGGAR KING, crowned with molten

gold,

Viserys goes from calling himself King Viserys, to actually being King Viserys according to the appendixes. And it's around this time that the app comes out stating that Rhaella had crowned Viserys making him actually king. So GRRM went from having Viserys be a fake king who was never crowned, to actually having been a king. He can do this.

So even if it's not something he planned early on, that doesn't mean that he can't have changed things along the way. If something's written in stone (like Jaime's hand being cut off or Robert dying for example), he can't just turn around and say that this never happened. Those are events and things that happened. He can't change those. But when something is just a theory or a loose end, based off foreshadowing and hints and interpretations, GRRM can change whatever he likes as he never wrote that in stone, or possibly never even wrote it in the first place and people just imagined it as significant (cough, cough).