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So, P+L=R? (TWOW spoilers?)


juanml82

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Lysa has auburn (reddish brown) hair, which is apparently typical of the Tullys. Catelyn has similar hair, and most of her own children are known to take the hair colour of their mother, with only Arya more closely resembling a black-haired Stark.

Sweetrobin has hair that is a darker shade of brown, but still, recognisably brown. It would not take much imagination in the Westerosi world, given Westerosi levels of understanding, to suggest that his hair colour took after his mother: it takes something glaring like all three Lannister children looking exactly like blonde green-eyed Lannisters and nothing whatsoever like the Baratheons, when Baratheon children are usually known to take more after their Baratheon parent, to raise suspicions.

Nevertheless - I think the possibility (NOT a certainty) is there, for Sweetrobin to genuinely be Littlefinger's... and for neither Lysa nor Petyr to know it. This presupposes that:

As per the rules of ASoIaF world, I'd say it much more noteworthy when a child doesn't resemble either of his parents, rather than when it takes after its mother. I wouldn't say Cersei's example is glaring at all, it doesn't differ from Catelyn's case in any way outwardly, what's glaring is what happened with Rhaenyra and her children by Laenor.

That said, Bran mistook a vision of Benjen for himself, so it's possible that the Tully auburn is very dark and has much closer to brown than to red. (Btw, the Starks have dark brown hair, not black.) I wonder what's the deal with Sansa dying her hair brown though, if it's pretty much brown anyway; Alayne shouldn't look much different form Sansa, really.

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I don't think this twist adds anything to the plot. It would be like cheap repetitions of other storylines and more importantly, Lysa didnot even imply anything of this sort while she lashed out everything she did with LF.


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I think it is possible, but not probable, and not proven, that Sweetrobin could be Littlefinger's son. He is small, and has dark hair. And, according to the World of Ice and Fire app, Lysa was carrying on an affair with LF even after she and Jon Arryn were married.



If it got out that Lysa and LF were carrying on while she was married, what that could do was put SR's paternity into doubt, no matter whose son he really was. I don't know how that would be found out but it's possible - LF coerced or tortured into confessing, or an old servant of Jon Arryn's spilling the beans.



LF plotting to murder his own son is squicky indeed, but I wouldn't put it past LF even if he DID suspect that SR is his son - because LF is just that kind of sociopath. It's emphasized that the kinslayer is cursed even if he doesn't know he's killing his kin...



As for Sansa's hair, Catelyn said it was a brighter auburn than her own and would shine red in the candlelight, so I think her hair is closer to red than brown - I think Bran and Robb probably had darker hair tending toward the brown end of auburn.


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I don't know if anyone else has quoted this but in ASOS II Lysa says;

"I want to share your bed tonight, my sweet. I want us to make another child, a brother for Robert or a sweet little daughter"

She also screams about Petyr making her another little baby. A couple of pages later she goes on to describe Jon Arryn's seed as being old and weak, that all her babies died apart from Robert. It also states that Littlefinger was at King Landing at this time. We know for a fact already that Jon Arryn never had a living child from his previous marriages but Lysa had a viable child via Petyr before her father forced her to drink tansy. I think there are implications there that Robert could possibly be Littlefinger's child, as people further up the thread have suggested Jon's "the seed is strong" could have been referencing Littlefinger's seed.

That being said, the another child and screaming about another little baby could just reference the original child. I'm sure my suggestion has holes but oh well.

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One Example



Baratheons have brownish/blackish her. It is an agressive trait rather than recessive. Still, Joffry, Tommen and Myrcella having Blonde her, which is an agressive trait with the Lannisters. If it where Robers Children, there must have been some signs of the Brown/Blackish her in the children or one must have dark hair, that is normal. If you have more children, almost always one of them has the opposite haircolour of his siblings. There wasn't, while in the past some Targs who married into the Baratheons, had traits of the Brownish/blackish hair. And this while the Targ hair is also agressive.



Starks have Black hair, the agressive trait. Most of the Stark childeren have the Stark hair. Still, there are some that have Tully traits, which is normal if you have multiple children. Same must have happened with the Baratheon kids.



If you go of to that, it seems that the Tully hair, is more recessive than the hairstyle of the Starks or the Arryns. Harry had the Arryn traits,while he is from another line, while SR has not, seems an indication that P+L = indeed SweetRobin. Lysa and Petyr both have dark hair.



There can also be one example when R+L = J that both Stark and Targ traits are agressive, its just a coinflip which hairstyle comes up. If this is true, we know Aegon has the Targ traits, which seems normal, since he is offspring of Targ and Martell. Still, Jon is his sibling, so the Blonde trait must be somewhere in Jon. Another indication of the match Stark-Targ indication if R+L = Jon is indeed true, that the Stark traits are more agressive than the Targ traits is Jons grey eyes, while some people in Westeros have mentioned Lyanna as the grey-eyed beauty. This seems that the Stark trait matching with Targ traits, make the Stark traits even stronger.


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I think GRRM uses appearances as a way to emphasize a point of how people may perceive a person and how other characters opinions form based on that.



BC Robert Arryn is weak and Harry is strong people will point to him and say he looks like what a leader should look like and this is who I want to follow. Kind of like in the Blackfyre rebellion. People flocked to the Daemon's cause since he had the traditional Targ warrior look. Whereas Daeron's didn't and his line looked Dornish.



Also, Tyrion is stunted and ugly. This leads the common people to look at him as some sort of monster and high lords to look down on him.



GRRMs appearances to me aren't about genetics, more or less, but about the perception of that character. It is somewhat pointless to argue about genetics that are in his mind, which we know nothing about, and appear to be magical in nature.

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If I remember genetics right, isn't black hair dominant instead of recessive? IIRC, if Jon had sandy blond hair, then he can't have recessive dark hair genes because those genes aren't recessive. Kind of the same applies to Lysa, I think. I guess I child of brown hair is still possible, but dark hair should require one parent with, well, dark hair.

Auburn hair is dark hair, it is a mid to dark brown with a reddish tinge to it. The shows depiction of sansa as a red head has really messed with a lot of peoples perception of auburn hair.

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One Example

Baratheons have brownish/blackish her. It is an agressive trait rather than recessive. Still, Joffry, Tommen and Myrcella having Blonde her, which is an agressive trait with the Lannisters. If it where Robers Children, there must have been some signs of the Brown/Blackish her in the children or one must have dark hair, that is normal. If you have more children, almost always one of them has the opposite haircolour of his siblings. There wasn't, while in the past some Targs who married into the Baratheons, had traits of the Brownish/blackish hair. And this while the Targ hair is also agressive.

The Baratheon Black hair is dominant over the Lannister Gold hair, in all the marriages between the two houses the children had always been black haired, however when Targaryen wed baratheon the Silver hair seems to have won when Laenara & Laenor were born, but when Steffon Baratheon was born to Rhaelle Targaryen the Black seems to have won. So It can't be said for certain that the Black is stronger than the Silver, But it is stronger than Lannister Gold as the book described every single child of the two houses as black haired.

Starks have Black hair, the agressive trait. Most of the Stark childeren have the Stark hair. Still, there are some that have Tully traits, which is normal if you have multiple children. Same must have happened with the Baratheon kids.

Actually no, Most of the Stark children have the Tully hair, only Arya is brown haired, and Jon of course has no Tully blood at all, but has Stark/Targ blood, and he got the Stark hair. Which is dark brown, not black like Baratheon.

If you go of to that, it seems that the Tully hair, is more recessive than the hairstyle of the Starks or the Arryns. Harry had the Arryn traits,while he is from another line, while SR has not, seems an indication that P+L = indeed SweetRobin. Lysa and Petyr both have dark hair.

Just the opposite actually given that 4 out of 5 of catelyn's children have Auburn hair, and all three tully siblings had Auburn hair as did both Brynden and Hoster, one would expect Robert Arryn & Edmure's yet to be born child to also have auburn hair. As Roberts hair is brown without the red tinge which Auburn hair has we have to assume he got his brown hair from the Whent Gene or the mother of Jon Arryn, house unknown.

There can also be one example when R+L = J that both Stark and Targ traits are agressive, its just a coinflip which hairstyle comes up. If this is true, we know Aegon has the Targ traits, which seems normal, since he is offspring of Targ and Martell. Still, Jon is his sibling, so the Blonde trait must be somewhere in Jon. Another indication of the match Stark-Targ indication if R+L = Jon is indeed true, that the Stark traits are more agressive than the Targ traits is Jons grey eyes, while some people in Westeros have mentioned Lyanna as the grey-eyed beauty. This seems that the Stark trait matching with Targ traits, make the Stark traits even stronger.

When targaryen weds Martell it is even stevens with the Targ Silver slightly pipping the Martell brown to the post. Mariah Martell birthed 4 children and two out of 4 were silver and one brown with the last undescribed, thus far. Elia Martell birthed two children and it was 50/50 with Rhaenys having the dornish look and Aegon the Targ. We do not know the colour of any offspring between Daenerys Targaryen and her martell husband. But as the Martell line seems to have clearly retained the brown hair gene I assume it was a similar mixed bag, with some of her children silver and some brown. Jon seems to prove the point as another Targaryen who inherits his mother's brown hair. Jon's eyes however are so grey they look black, and Aegon V's eyes were so dark purple they looked black. So I wouldn't be so certain Jon has stark eyes with the author using the same phrase to describe Egg's eyes.

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LadyReicheru, that's not correct, JonAryn had 2 children from his previous wife, 1 was killed with Brandon and Rickard, and another at the battle of Gulltown during Roberts Rebellion.

Jon Arryn had a stillborn daughter by one of his previous wives, no different from Lysa's miscarriages and stillbirths most likely.

IIRC Elbert Arryn was his nephew, the son of his brother Ronnel. Denys Arryn was his greatnephew, the son of his sister Alys and Elys Waynwood's oldest daughter by an Arryn from a distant branch of the family.

Auburn hair is dark hair, it is a mid to dark brown with a reddish tinge to it. The shows depiction of sansa as a red head has really messed with a lot of peoples perception of auburn hair.

To be fair, doesn't Arya at some point in AGoT describe all her siblings as having inherited "fire in their hair" from their mother? That sounds pretty red to me (see Ygritte). Maybe GRRM changed his mind. :dunno:

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She does, but Auburn is still brown with a red tinge. Which can indeed be described as fire in their hair. Because it is still reddish. But not by any means is it red hair like say Ginger is.

Maybe. I'd say "fire" is suggestive of bright color, one pictures that the red must be clearly recognizable, not necessarily like in the case of "kissed by fire" Ygritte (who is a ginger in my mind's eye), but closer to red than brown. Either way it's a minor issue.

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I too was under the impression that Jon Arryn had at least one previous child survive to adulthood, but looking back his heir was always his nephew or an even more distant relative. I'd have to say that this is another point in the favor of thinking Sweetrobin is not his.



The problem is, we do get strong narrative signals pointing to both possibilities. Lysa does state outright that she, for the first time, wants to give Littlefinger a surviving son. That precludes Sweetrobin as Littlefinger's, as it's hard to argue with the mother. So likely it's not Petyr's.



On the other hand, it's strange that a seemingly sterile man managed to buck a lifelong trend in his twilight years, and it's strange that a woman's child would look like her lifelong love instead of her husband. Cuckoldry/Cuckqueanism and hidden/secret heirs are also recurring themes in the series, which would make this idea fit right in.



For Sweetrobin to be Petyr's, you have to posit a reason why the mother wouldn't even consider the possibility that her son actually belonged to her love. The only one that I can come up with is that Petyr raped her at some point while she was unconscious/mentally altered, mirroring what she did to him to conceive their first child. The question then would become, does Petyr know? Has he always been pulling a cuckoo, slipping his "inferior" line into a Great Family, or is he ironically oblivious and scheming to kill his own son (in a quest to seduce his fake daughter)?



There is also the possibility that Lysa precludes Sweetrobin from being Petyr's for a practical rather than literal reason: whatever his biology, Robert will always officially/legally be Jon Arryn's. She wants to give him a legitimate heir, unlike either of their previous children.


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Robin Arryn's physical build is strong indicator as well as hair. We also know that Lysa have been doing the nasty for years as she had to keep quiet about her "screaming", which means while Jon Arryn was working and worrying about keeping the realm afloat (unless he was kept in the dark about the finances) LF was screwing Lysa, I am sure Varys knew and knows and I wonder if that will come into play in TWOW.


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