What is Valyrian Steel Made Of?

[Ser Patroclo]

What about the Valyrian steel links on some maseter chains? Do the maester's actually forge their links themselves?

I am not an expert, but I don't think maesters use this technique to forge their chains:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2SuMYtkNr8

Maybe they have 'intermediate' links or strips to join the links.

[The silver dragon]

Chuck norris's nail clippings.

[Modesty Lannister]

The same idea holds as the 'sacrificing' of a dead dragon, there is no actual sacrifice.

Tywin is not giving-up something he values. To him, the wolf pelt is garbage.

Though perhaps fate is forcing a sacrifice out of the Lannisters, through the loss of Jaime's hand.

On another note, the instances of the VS blade's being 'alive' in fighter's hands. Are there other instances of the same metaphors or do the only occur with VS blades?

Is it a case of specific symbology of VS or just a way to write that the sword is lighter and moves faster than the fighters think it will, not being used to VS?

Everything one gives to the fire is sacrifice. We moved on from dead dragon up the thread, so take a look. There were several suggestions.

I never found any such instances with non VS. And, as you can see from the quotes I provided, it is not just "being alive" in fighter's hands.

[Modesty Lannister]

Chuck norris's nail clippings.

Chuck Norris's breath would be more powerful than VS sword, but that's a given.

[Modesty Lannister]

What about the Valyrian steel links on some maseter chains? Do the maester's actually forge their links themselves?

They are supposed to do it themselves. But that is not like reforging a state of the art weapon. It's just remelting VS and mumbling some spells. And chains do look crude anyway.

[RumHam]

I think the maesters only forge their chains in a metaphorical sense. Otherwise every acolyte's first course should be metallurgy, and I don't think that's the case. It really wouldn't make sense for a maester to learn the trade of a smith just for that purpose.

[Ser Creighton]

I think the maesters only forge their chains in a metaphorical sense. Otherwise every acolyte's first course should be metallurgy, and I don't think that's the case. It really wouldn't make sense for a maester to learn the trade of a smith just for that purpose.

Valyrian steel reforging does not actually make any sense, like in order to make two swords from ice, you would have had to melt down the metal to a liquid state, something you never do in a folding process. You will alter the process, then all you could do is forge from ingots really. The Carbon content will altered and the steel would become ultra brittle, and chain links? It'ss sad thatthe magic process of Valyrian steel makes more sense than the case of reforging and chain links.

Martin compared it to Damscus steel which iss folded and blended metal. You can't really reforge it into the same material. Not that it matters I guess, it's a magic world but his comparisons are probably really bad.

[Littlefinger's dagger]

Modesty lannister: " Iron substituted calcium. This is a magical world and the author decided to do it. Therefore, I am not clear about your last sentence. Are you comparing the process of making steel on Earth with an imaginary process of making Valyrian steel that includes magic and sacrifice?"

One of my points was that it's true that in some cases one element in a compound can in a sense have a substitute. There is another similar compound where another element WITH THE SAME NUMBER OF VALENCE ELECTRONS is in the compound instead of the original. Silicon can form compounds very similar to some Carbon compounds for example. This is not the case with iron and calcium, the substitution would not work the same way. Bones made of iron compounds would be using compounds that bear no resemblance to the original calcium phosphate based bones.

I was also pointing out that bone is a structure, it contains a lot of tiny voids, the same way a slice of bread has lots of air pockets in it. The structure and the very fact that it's not solid in the same way a slice of cheddar cheese is solid contributes greatly to bone being strong, light, and flexible. If you beat on a slice of bread like a smith forging a sword, you'd have a much flatter and solider slice of bread, a very different structure even if the ingredients are the same. The shaping and forging of a sword from a bone would destroy the structure of the bone that's creating many of its desirable properties.

[RumHam]

Valyrian steel reforging does not actually make any sense, like in order to make two swords from ice, you would have had to melt down the metal to a liquid state, something you never do in a folding process. You will alter the process, then all you could do is forge from ingots really. The Carbon content will altered and the steel would become ultra brittle, and chain links? It'ss sad thatthe magic process of Valyrian steel makes more sense than the case of reforging and chain links.

Martin compared it to Damscus steel which iss folded and blended metal. You can't really reforge it into the same material. Not that it matters I guess, it's a magic world but his comparisons are probably really bad.

Very true. Especially since we've been told that Valyrian Steel cannot be damaged by normal fire, or even a brief burst of dragonfire. But you can sorta handwave it away because apparently magic spells are involved even in the reforging.

Tobho had learned to work Valyrian steel at the forges of Oohor as a boy. Only a man who knew the spells could take old weapons and forge them anew.

Or maybe Tobho had some wildfire, and prolonged exposure to that was enough to melt down ice.

[Ser Patroclo]

Valyrian steel reforging does not actually make any sense, like in order to make two swords from ice, you would have had to melt down the metal to a liquid state, something you never do in a folding process. You will alter the process, then all you could do is forge from ingots really. The Carbon content will altered and the steel would become ultra brittle, and chain links? It'ss sad thatthe magic process of Valyrian steel makes more sense than the case of reforging and chain links.

Martin compared it to Damscus steel which iss folded and blended metal. You can't really reforge it into the same material. Not that it matters I guess, it's a magic world but his comparisons are probably really bad.

Glad to see there is someone else who got at my same conclusion.

[The Dragon has three heads]

/thread :cool4:

It is pretty black and white.

But why talk about basically bones of carbon -which makes high quality steel- and have it be such a red herring?

I dont hate the idea of part of the fallen moon being involved, but I always assumed dragon bone was score component of VS but not the only one. I think this is why GRRM said no, it wasn't the right question.

"Is dragon bone part of the process for creating valyrian steel?" May have gotten a different answer...

[Modesty Lannister]

Modesty lannister: " Iron substituted calcium. This is a magical world and the author decided to do it. Therefore, I am not clear about your last sentence. Are you comparing the process of making steel on Earth with an imaginary process of making Valyrian steel that includes magic and sacrifice?"

One of my points was that it's true that in some cases one element in a compound can in a sense have a substitute. There is another similar compound where another element WITH THE SAME NUMBER OF VALENCE ELECTRONS is in the compound instead of the original. Silicon can form compounds very similar to some Carbon compounds for example. This is not the case with iron and calcium, the substitution would not work the same way. Bones made of iron compounds would be using compounds that bear no resemblance to the original calcium phosphate based bones.

I was also pointing out that bone is a structure, it contains a lot of tiny voids, the same way a slice of bread has lots of air pockets in it. The structure and the very fact that it's not solid in the same way a slice of cheddar cheese is solid contributes greatly to bone being strong, light, and flexible. If you beat on a slice of bread like a smith forging a sword, you'd have a much flatter and solider slice of bread, a very different structure even if the ingredients are the same. The shaping and forging of a sword from a bone would destroy the structure of the bone that's creating many of its desirable properties.

That is all great, but you keep applying earth science to a magical imaginary world. A book from WF tells us all GRRM wants us to know about dragon bones. I put the quote in the OP. The properties of these bones and the properties of VS are identical. Then, he goes on and gives us Sam finding a text about dragonsteel in CB. We should follow the logic of the writing, not our science. Do we have weirwoods, dragons etc? No. So, I would not apply earth science onto something that does not exist on Earth.

[Modesty Lannister]

It is pretty black and white.

But why talk about basically bones of carbon -which makes high quality steel- and have it be such a red herring?

I dont hate the idea of part of the fallen moon being involved, but I always assumed dragon bone was score component of VS but not the only one. I think this is why GRRM said no, it wasn't the right question.

"Is dragon bone part of the process for creating valyrian steel?" May have gotten a different answer...

That is exactly what I think. If someone asked me a question: "Is a chocolate cake made of chocolate?", I would have answered "No". And Ran gave his explanation, so we have all the information and can draw our own conclusions.

[Littlefinger's dagger]

That is all great, but you keep applying earth science to a magical imaginary world. A book from WF tells us all GRRM wants us to know about dragon bones. I put the quote in the OP. The properties of these bones and the properties of VS are identical. Then, he goes on and gives us Sam finding a text about dragonsteel in CB. We should follow the logic of the writing, not our science. Do we have weirwoods, dragons etc? No. So, I would not apply earth science onto something that does not exist on Earth.

Seems to me GRRM only invokes magic as a necessity, very sparingly. His world also has things like banks and accounting, but we don't ignore the mathematics they require because there are also dragons and the undead. Chemistry exists on this world too, people use it to create wildfire, which strongly resembles the real-world "greek fire" weapon used by Romans.

I'm quite open to magic being the solution, just trying to check at what point science fails do deliver and why. We're exploring the idea of dragonbone taking the place of iron ore in the production of steel, and I'm trying to point out several problems that magic will have to deal with in order to make the theory work, because science can't.

Little is known about dragon bone. Iron exists in normal bone as a trace element at best. Using iron in place of calcium (a very soft metal as metals go) would require a very different molecule be used as a building block. Let's just say for the sake of argument that Iron, Oxygen, and carbon can form a molecule from which an organism can grow a bone. To keep it appropriately grim, let's say the organism does this and gets its iron and other elements from the blood of people and animals it eats. Ok, we're still staying somewhat plausible and can avoid invoking magic, we can save that for another time.

Now to create new VS, let's try out the theory: we go through the process of making steel, only instead of using iron ore from hematite, we use dragon bone because it's light and super-strong, and heat-resistant. That last part becomes a problem, because the melting point of hematite is high enough to be a challenge at this tech level, our bone might have an even higher melting point. If we introduce the idea that dragons are the source of hotter flame, then we're introducing magic to a degree.

The next issue is that in smelting, we lose the internal structure of the bone, which is not a simple solid in the real world and probably isn't here either. Bone is porous because it needs to be. It would be like melting the wax in a honeycomb: we get a small puddle of wax, but it loses the lightness for its volume and the strength it has as a honeycomb. Those qualities we wanted to give the steel come both from the material itself and from the internal structure it has.

Is all this possible without magic? Not sure, but it doesn't look like a great success so far. We know from the books that magic was a component in the making of VS, and so far I'm leaning to the idea that it's easier to say we're making normal steel and adding some spells. Involving either dragon bone or obsidian seems to create more problems for magic to have to deal with, and in both cases there's a very good chance that in trying to add these materials to the steel we remove from them the qualities that make them most useful.

[Modesty Lannister]

Seems to me GRRM only invokes magic as a necessity, very sparingly. His world also has things like banks and accounting, but we don't ignore the mathematics they require because there are also dragons and the undead. Chemistry exists on this world too, people use it to create wildfire, which strongly resembles the real-world "greek fire" weapon used by Romans.

I'm quite open to magic being the solution, just trying to check at what point science fails do deliver and why. We're exploring the idea of dragonbone taking the place of iron ore in the production of steel, and I'm trying to point out several problems that magic will have to deal with in order to make the theory work, because science can't.

Little is known about dragon bone. Iron exists in normal bone as a trace element at best. Using iron in place of calcium (a very soft metal as metals go) would require a very different molecule be used as a building block. Let's just say for the sake of argument that Iron, Oxygen, and carbon can form a molecule from which an organism can grow a bone. To keep it appropriately grim, let's say the organism does this and gets its iron and other elements from the blood of people and animals it eats. Ok, we're still staying somewhat plausible and can avoid invoking magic, we can save that for another time.

Now to create new VS, let's try out the theory: we go through the process of making steel, only instead of using iron ore from hematite, we use dragon bone because it's light and super-strong, and heat-resistant. That last part becomes a problem, because the melting point of hematite is high enough to be a challenge at this tech level, our bone might have an even higher melting point. If we introduce the idea that dragons are the source of hotter flame, then we're introducing magic to a degree.

The next issue is that in smelting, we lose the internal structure of the bone, which is not a simple solid in the real world and probably isn't here either. Bone is porous because it needs to be. It would be like melting the wax in a honeycomb: we get a small puddle of wax, but it loses the lightness for its volume and the strength it has as a honeycomb. Those qualities we wanted to give the steel come both from the material itself and from the internal structure it has.

Is all this possible without magic? Not sure, but it doesn't look like a great success so far. We know from the books that magic was a component in the making of VS, and so far I'm leaning to the idea that it's easier to say we're making normal steel and adding some spells. Involving either dragon bone or obsidian seems to create more problems for magic to have to deal with, and in both cases there's a very good chance that in trying to add these materials to the steel we remove from them the qualities that make them most useful.

Of course magic is a necessary and so is sacrifice. It's a given. It's strongly hinted at in TWOIAF. I included it in my OP. You are talking about porous bones. These would be our bones. But, we have a description of dragon bones and they do not seem porous at all. They are used for Dhotraki arrows. Can you imagine a regular arrow made of our bones? I'd say, no. You couldn't. So, I definitely think that from the aspect of chemistry you are overthinking this. From the aspect of biochemistry, you just replaced calcium with iron in our bones, but if you are so keen on chemistry, you would know that that replacement alone would not give the description from the book. So, dragon bone is a magical bone with high iron density and other properties, like flexibility and lightness (necessary for flying) that our bones do not have at all. So, any comparison is completely fruitless.

[DarkSister1001]

I took your advice and am developing my earlier comments into a theory. In doing so I found these interesting quotes regarding VS...

Re:Longclaw...

“The fire melted the silver off the pommel and burnt the crossguard and grip. Well, dry leather and old wood, what could you expect? The blade now…you’d need a fire a hundred times as hot to harm the blade.” AGoT, Chapter 70, Jon

“Ser Jorah Mormont,” she said, “first and greatest of my knights, I have no bride gift to give you, but I swear to you, one day you shall have from my hands a longsword like non the world has ever seen, dragon-forged and made of Valyrian steel.”

AGoT, Chapter 72, Dany

I think LC Mormont's comment about needing fire much hotter than normal and Dany saying she'd give Jorah a dragon-forged VS blade is a good indication that the fire from the dragon's is necessary. So far, wildfire is the only comparable flame. I think that's what Tobho used to heat the metal.

We know from the alchemists in KL that spells are needed to make wildfire. And we know that VS is "spell-forged". I have to wonder if using wildfire with it's additional spells changes the metal.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

I took your advice and am developing my earlier comments into a theory. In doing so I found these interesting quotes regarding VS...

I think LC Mormont's comment about needing fire much hotter than normal and Dany saying she'd give Jorah a dragon-forged VS blade is a good indication that the fire from the dragon's is necessary. So far, wildfire is the only comparable flame. I think that's what Tobho used to heat the metal.

We know from the alchemists in KL that spells are needed to make wildfire. And we know that VS is "spell-forged". I have to wonder if using wildfire with it's additional spells changes the metal.

Nice Find! IMO, the only disclaimer I would associate with this is that these are comments from people who are not blacksmiths nor do they know how VS is made...just speculation on their part based on the limited knowledge available on VS.

But I can buy in to the theory that Dragon Fire is used to melt & forge the blades.

[Modesty Lannister]

I took your advice and am developing my earlier comments into a theory. In doing so I found these interesting quotes regarding VS...

I think LC Mormont's comment about needing fire much hotter than normal and Dany saying she'd give Jorah a dragon-forged VS blade is a good indication that the fire from the dragon's is necessary. So far, wildfire is the only comparable flame. I think that's what Tobho used to heat the metal.

We know from the alchemists in KL that spells are needed to make wildfire. And we know that VS is "spell-forged". I have to wonder if using wildfire with it's additional spells changes the metal.

Great. I cannot wait to read it. Post the link to this thread as well, so that we can find it more easily.

[RumHam]

Nice Find! IMO, the only disclaimer I would associate with this is that these are comments from people who are not blacksmiths nor do they know how VS is made...just speculation on their part based on the limited knowledge available on VS.

But I can buy in to the theory that Dragon Fire is used to melt & forge the blades.

It was also in the notes from the Sons of the Dragon reading that Blackfyre had been forged in dragon-flame. So it's something the maesters and probably the Targaryens believe as well.

[Littlefinger's dagger]

So, I definitely think that from the aspect of chemistry you are overthinking this.

I'm so sorry, I was definitely under the impression that this entire forum is devoted to overthinking aspects of these books. That's pretty much what we're all doing here. So, pots, kettles, and the color black, so far as that goes.

From the aspect of biochemistry, you just replaced calcium with iron in our bones, but if you are so keen on chemistry, you would know that that replacement alone would not give the description from the book..

No, for the sake of exploring the idea in one possible direction I stipulated the plausibility of an iron compound, probably very different in composition from real world calcium phosphate, that might do the basic job of calcium phosphate bone. Not even going to chase that rabbit any further, because it wasn't terribly convincing.

You are talking about porous bones. These would be our bones. But, we have a description of dragon bones and they do not seem porous at all.

Really? And we know this because we have a scene with a Maester using a microscope and commenting on the visible structure. . . right? No, we have some very layperson descriptions from characters who probably don't know much about bones other than how to use them in a soup. The bone could be made of something closely resembling carbon fiber based on the descriptions we have.

They are used for Dhotraki arrows. Can you imagine a regular arrow made of our bones? I'd say, no. You couldn't.

No, you are incorrect here, the Dothraki have BOWS made from dragon bone, not arrows. And I don't need to imagine such a bow, all I need to do is look up "compound bow" on wikipedia. Takedown bows can also be made from regular bone, according to a short google search. The real world does have them, I can look at photos, and online gaming is lousy with the darned things.

So, dragon bone is a magical bone with high iron density and other properties, like flexibility and lightness (necessary for flying) that our bones do not have at all. So, any comparison is completely fruitless.

You are aware that birds have bones, right? Because they fly, and stuff. Those bones are. . . wait for it . . flexible and light.

So far you're not exactly convincing me of anything. Try getting some facts right. Comparison is working just fine, thank you very much.

Now here's a couple fun facts to put into the discussion: Obsidian is about 70% silicon oxide, the rest is MgO (magnesium oxide) and Fe₃O₄, one of several iron oxides, which is pretty blackish and is used in "blued" steel. Dragon bones being black and having lots of iron, my money is on the black coming from that particular oxide. Magnesium is one of the elements that CAN plausibly be used in the same phosphate molecule as bone. It's also an ingredient in thermite, and tends to corrode and catch fire. Reducing the oxygen out Fe₃O₄ of is kind of a pain at this tech level, because it requires lots of CO in smelting, but if most of the iron just comes from hematite and the Fe₃O₄ is present unoxidized to create color.

We know obsidian is effective against Others, we're unclear on why. "Dragonsteel" must have something in common with it, and given that silicon will more or less ruin the steel, then maybe the trick is that particular iron oxide.

So for a minute here, let's suppose that we're making regular steel from hematite and graphite. Dragon bones are a potentially great source of iron that will among other things fail to deoxidize in this sort of smelting and will impart blackish coloring, and magnesium that once ignited can help raise the furnace temperature then sluff off as a white ash in the slag. Say we add some dragon bone to our steel crucible at some point in the smelting process. Suppose we also have a spell that gets some of the graphite to form carbon nanotube matrixes in the steel. Now, after some dragon bone and some spells, we have a fictional sword that would be lighter, harder, and more flexible than normal. And I'd really love someone to try stabbing an Other with a blued steel knife.

It involves magic (we knew that going in) and some guesswork, but now it's looking more plausible and we have a theory about what the secret Other poison is and what specifically the spells are doing. It's far from canon but it's starting to make some sense.