What is Valyrian Steel Made Of?

[LmL]

You should be very clear what you mean by "infused with obsidian." Metal and glass (obsidian is naturally occurring glass with some impurities) don't really mix well.

If you take pure molten glass and sprinkle in metal dust you can color the glass, but most of the metal just stays as little flakes of metal. only a tiny amount actually reacts chemically, but that's all that's needed to make most colored glass.

If you take molten smelted steel and sprinkle in some crushed obsidian (you'd need to add a couple other things as well) you'd get the silicon oxide and the other oxides to deoxidize and the silicon and other elements could form a true alloy with the steel. Unfortunately the result is an unacceptably brittle alloy that has better electrical conductivity. Complete crap for making a sword.

Natural bone is both a material (calcium phosphate and some other things) and a honeycomb like structure (which makes it both lighter and stronger. They can do this with steel now). The idea of substituting elemental iron for the calcium doesn't work chemically, the whole material would be different.

So if one had a piece of this theoretical bone, I can see how it would be difficult to impossible to work without destroying the internal structure making it light and strong.

Leaving aside the particulars of the dragonbone element, I have pondered the idea of infusing steel with obsidian. In scientific terms, it makes no sense at all, as you say. But the evidence for an obsidian infused sword is pretty decent, so I've been pondering. Either "it's magic," simple as that; or, perhaps the obsidian goes on the pommel. The V steel sword "Nightfall" has a moonstone pommel, which gave me that idea... but I don't know how strong an idea it is. I think it's just magic and you can fuse dragonglass and steel somehow.

ETA: just o be clear, this third scenario where all V steel represent dark light bringer means that all V steel is made from the “bloodstone” moon rock. They must have a had a chunk of it on Valyria - found there, or elsewhere - and they were making swords from it by superheating it with dragon flame and fusing it with steel. That’s why the Qohoric smiths can’t crack the code no matter how many babies they kill. They don’t have any black moon rock.

[Magnar of Skagos]

No, they weren't. Japan used those techniques because the iron to which they had access was of poor quality, Europe had knowledge of such techniques, but didn't bother because their materials were good enough to not require folding.

Yeah, I'm not really sure where this belief everyone seems to have that samurai swords are the greatest weapon to ever be created came from.

[TallTyrion]

Yeah, I'm not really sure where this belief everyone seems to have that samurai swords are the greatest weapon to ever be created came from.

Kill Bill

[Byfort of Corfe]

Valyrian steel is basically the fantasy version of Damascus steel. Does anyone else notice the similarities

I very much agree, Damascus or Toledo, the sword smiths of Toledo managed to steal the Damascene secrets. I have a Toledo dagger and it is so much finer than my Civil War officers sword. IIRC, Ashos, of the Three Musketeers, carries a Toledo blade. Of course you also throw in a little Magic, Like Excalibur and The Singing Sword, both supposedly forged by the same smith. Someday, If I win the Lottery I'm going back to Toledo to pick up a broadsword and a rapier.

[Littlefinger's dagger]

Leaving aside the particulars of the dragonbone element, I have pondered the idea of infusing steel with obsidian. In scientific terms, it makes no sense at all, as you say. But the evidence for an obsidian infused sword is pretty decent, so I've been pondering. Either "it's magic," simple as that; or, perhaps the obsidian goes on the pommel. The V steel sword "Nightfall" has a moonstone pommel, which gave me that idea... but I don't know how strong an idea it is. I think it's just magic and you can fuse dragonglass and steel somehow.

The trick would be getting the steel so hot it can be worked, but not so hot that when you've added a sprinkle of obsidian it starts breaking down the silicon oxide and other compounds. If you can somehow leave bits of obsidian on the outside like powdered sugar on a donut, you might have something, but glass being what it is it's going to shatter and fall off every time the blade flexes. It does seem to boil down to magic being a requisite, because normal chemistry doesn't seem to do the job here.

[LmL]

What you're describing does sound a bit like the Japanese method - they heat the ore just enough for certain things to happen but not others (avoiding technical terms so as to not say the wrong thing). They also use different types of steel (differing carbon %) for different parts of the sword, some being more flexible (the core) and some less (the edge). The important part is the magical aspects of obsidian as frozen fire, so I suppose you can get that with powder or pretty much any way you can put them together. That's why I even raised the idea of a stone on the pommel. If all we need it the magic, perhaps put it on the pommel, touching through to the steel, and work a spell. Perhaps that's how the cotf are able to help the last hero fix his broken sword (which is a bit of an assumption - we only know his sword broke, then the cotf helped him somehow, and he won. The NW tales says he fought the Others with Dragonsteel. So it seems like a broken sword was turned into Dragonsteel. How do we account for this?

[Modesty Lannister]

You should be very clear what you mean by "infused with obsidian." Metal and glass (obsidian is naturally occurring glass with some impurities) don't really mix well.

If you take pure molten glass and sprinkle in metal dust you can color the glass, but most of the metal just stays as little flakes of metal. only a tiny amount actually reacts chemically, but that's all that's needed to make most colored glass.

If you take molten smelted steel and sprinkle in some crushed obsidian (you'd need to add a couple other things as well) you'd get the silicon oxide and the other oxides to deoxidize and the silicon and other elements could form a true alloy with the steel. Unfortunately the result is an unacceptably brittle alloy that has better electrical conductivity. Complete crap for making a sword.

Natural bone is both a material (calcium phosphate and some other things) and a honeycomb like structure (which makes it both lighter and stronger. They can do this with steel now). The idea of substituting elemental iron for the calcium doesn't work chemically, the whole material would be different.

So if one had a piece of this theoretical bone, I can see how it would be difficult to impossible to work without destroying the internal structure making it light and strong.

Thanks for this. Excellent chemistry lesson. But you are mixing Earth bones with dragon bones. Look at the relevant quote in OP. No mention of calcium there. That is the point. Iron substituted calcium. This is a magical world and the author decided to do it. Therefore, I am not clear about your last sentence. Are you comparing the process of making steel on Earth with an imaginary process of making Valyrian steel that includes magic and sacrifice?

[Modesty Lannister]

I definitely like the idea of Dragonbone as the source for Valyrian steel. The high percentage of iron makes it a good candidate but I find the material's flexibility (as seen with the dragonbone bows) an equally or perhaps even more important property. So far we have seen obsidian and castle-forged steel in action against the Others. The obsidian works, steel fails. What bothers me about obsidian blades is that although they are 'frozen fire' and doubtless work, we've only seen small weapons made of the material so far - arrowheads, daggers, spearheads. No long swords or larger weapons. I guess this is because dragonglass is not flexible enough to be useful as a longsword. It's even more brittle than steel. In a one on one fight, blocking is vital and I suspect an obsidian sword would shatter on contact with an Other's sword much like Ser Waymar's steel blade shattered into tiny bits. That was a bit of speculation. Whatever the case we've seen no obsidian longswords but a fair number of Valyrian swords and I suspect Valyrian swords do exhibit flexibility.

That the 'bones remember' works for me too. I can imagine that activating this memory in the sword would require sorcery. Here are a few passages about the dragon skulls at the Red Keep which support the notion that the bones are somehow sentient:

Interesting also the description of the teeth. They are tall as swords. Hm, our bones have a high calcium content, our teeth even more.....

A plausible theory but I do have one question: what role does the dragonflesh play in the forging process?

Thank you for lovely and relevant quotes.

As for your question about the flesh - Qohorik are talking about sacrifice and spells. Septon who spied in Qohor and lost his hand is talking about sacrificing children. We do not know what Qohorik are doing with the children.

In case of Ice, unless cleaned to perfection, Ned's blood was still on the sword when it was reforged. And that blood changed the sword's properties. Valyrian steel rejected that blood, so gray and red run in parallel curves through it.

So, I am suggesting that to make Valyrian steel, one needs dragon bone, dragon blood and possibly dragon flesh. That means, you need a whole dead dragon. Even if dragonflesh is not necessary, why would one drain dragon blood and strip it from dragon bones when flesh will be burned to ash anyway. Bones are impervious to fire, so they won't be burned. So, even if the flesh is not necessary, isn't it more practical to cremate a whole dead dragon and work the bones than to go through bones stripping and blood draining processes. It may have happened. This just seems more practical. Plus, we do not know if the flesh is also needed for sacrifice. The process in my head is a true dragon recycling Valyrian style.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Indeed, remember when Sam and Jon discussed dragonsteel=Valyrian steel.

Yes, but that's not really true. Dragon bone is not Valyrian Steel. Dragon bone simply has a high iron content and is very flexible like steel. VS as so many have stated is spell forged and folded onto itself many many times. I've actually always wondered if the swords remember but then I thought, well, if Ice remembered Ned why did it allow itself to be used to kill him? Anyways, I also remember in a world of ice & fire that the Qhoriks (spelling) used sacrificing to make steel with much the same properties of VS. They guard the secret as the Valyrians did.

It seems to me that somewhere on Dragonstone there should be a formula for making VS. I mean just because they couldn't mine the steel anymore doesn't that just make sense that you would bring your history with you?

When Tyrion visited the dragon skeletons, he felt as if they liked the fire from his torch, he also felt like they were watching him. When Ned is in the crypts at Winterfell, he knows the Kings of Winter are watching and listening. I find this a pretty fascinating parallel myself. What is dead may never die but rises harder and stronger. Hmm ...

[Modesty Lannister]

Yes, but that's not really true. Dragon bone is not Valyrian Steel. Dragon bone simply has a high iron content and is very flexible like steel. VS as so many have stated is spell forged and folded onto itself many many times. I've actually always wondered if the swords remember but then I thought, well, if Ice remembered Ned why did it allow itself to be used to kill him? Anyways, I also remember in a world of ice & fire that the Qhoriks (spelling) used sacrificing to make steel with much the same properties of VS. They guard the secret as the Valyrians did.

It seems to me that somewhere on Dragonstone there should be a formula for making VS. I mean just because they couldn't mine the steel anymore doesn't that just make sense that you would bring your history with you?

When Tyrion visited the dragon skeletons, he felt as if they liked the fire from his torch, he also felt like they were watching him. When Ned is in the crypts at Winterfell, he knows the Kings of Winter are watching and listening. I find this a pretty fascinating parallel myself. What is dead may never die but rises harder and stronger. Hmm ...

I never said dragon bone is Valyrian steel. I said and there is a quote of Jon and Sam speculating on this that Dragonsteel is Valyrian steel. Dragon bone is a raw material for creating Valyrian steel - that is what I am proposing. All properties of the raw material (bone) are praised as properties of Valyrian steel swords. That is too much to be a coincidence.

The armor of the Others is proof against most ordinary blades, if the tales can be believed, and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel. Fire will dismay them, though, and they are vulnerable to obsidian. I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it."

"Dragonsteel?" The term was new to Jon. "Valyrian steel?"

"That was my first thought as well."

Jon II, ADWD

And again, you misread the bit on Qohor. They know how to reforge Valyrian steel. They do not know how to create it. These are different processes. The quote is in OP, but I will repeat it here.

The properties of Valyrian steel are well-known, and are the result of both folding iron many times to balance and remove impurities, and the use of spells—or at least arts we do not know—to give unnatural strength to the resulting steel. Those arts are now lost, though the smiths of Qohor claim to still know magics for reworking Valyrian steel without losing its strength or unsurpassed ability to hold an edge.

TWOIAF

As for parallels between the corridors of the Red Keep and crypts of WF and the Ironborn mantra, I agree, but I wanted to keep the OP clean of speculation of that sort. :cheers:

[Ser Patroclo]

Yes, but that's not really true. Dragon bone is not Valyrian Steel. Dragon bone simply has a high iron content and is very flexible like steel. VS as so many have stated is spell forged and folded onto itself many many times. I've actually always wondered if the swords remember but then I thought, well, if Ice remembered Ned why did it allow itself to be used to kill him? Anyways, I also remember in a world of ice & fire that the Qhoriks (spelling) used sacrificing to make steel with much the same properties of VS. They guard the secret as the Valyrians did.

It seems to me that somewhere on Dragonstone there should be a formula for making VS. I mean just because they couldn't mine the steel anymore doesn't that just make sense that you would bring your history with you?

When Tyrion visited the dragon skeletons, he felt as if they liked the fire from his torch, he also felt like they were watching him. When Ned is in the crypts at Winterfell, he knows the Kings of Winter are watching and listening. I find this a pretty fascinating parallel myself. What is dead may never die but rises harder and stronger. Hmm ...

I might be wrong, but if this is true than there is an inconsistency [with the show at least].

Assume that VS is obtained by folding iron over itself several times.

If the Smith in King's Landing did melt down ICE [like in the show], then this special property would have been lost.

I don't remember what was written in the books, but to not loose such properties the Smith should have heated the sword in the middle, and break it into two pieces. Then only reshape a little the two pieces by heating the iron and hitting it with a hammer.

[Mithras]

I think biology (which corresponds to blood magic as far as the Valyrians were concerned) is the key.

I take the dragons as unnatural constructs of blood magic. They are products of various beasts (wyverns, wyrms). Their fire breath is created by a juice secreted by their necessary organs. That juice is similar to wildfire. Dragonbones are the products of similar bioengineering (i.e blood magic).

Therefore, I think such a civilization can produce a steel like VS from regular steel. The magical enchantment in the VS is due to blood sacrifices. Qohorik smiths can produce the next best steel compared to the VS by making blood sacrifices. I don't think they use dragonbone.

[YorEmixam]

Did I miss it or no one said anything about dead Starks iron sword in the crypts being some kind of soul container? How nice it would be if every VS had its own dragon soul.

[Modesty Lannister]

I think biology (which corresponds to blood magic as far as the Valyrians were concerned) is the key.

I take the dragons as unnatural constructs of blood magic. They are products of various beasts (wyverns, wyrms). Their fire breath is created by a juice secreted by their necessary organs. That juice is similar to wildfire. Dragonbones are the products of similar bioengineering (i.e blood magic).

Therefore, I think such a civilization can produce a steel like VS from regular steel. The magical enchantment in the VS is due to blood sacrifices. Qohorik smiths can produce the next best steel compared to the VS by making blood sacrifices. I don't think they use dragonbone.

Mithras, it has to be stressed here that your assumption that dragons are products of magical bio engineering using wyverns and wyrms is just your assumption and not a proven fact. I can ask you a reverse question - why don't you think the opposite - that wyverns and wyrms are product of breeding dragons with other spices? As far as I can see, there is equal evidence (or the lack of them) for both assumptions.

Your leap from one assumption to the next - that a civilisation that can do one thing, can do another has nothing to do with my OP, so I would just answer with a question - where in the text do you find link for such a leap?

And Qohorik blacksmiths can produce ordinary steel and reforge VS, but they cannot produce anything similar to VS.

[Modesty Lannister]

Did I miss it or no one said anything about dead Starks iron sword in the crypts being some kind of soul container? How nice it would be if every VS had its own dragon soul.

I believe that may be the case, but let's stick to Valyrian steel here. :-)

[Mithras]

Mithras, it has to be stressed here that your assumption that dragons are products of magical bio engineering using wyverns and wyrms is just your assumption and not a proven fact. I can ask you a reverse question - why don't you think the opposite - that wyverns and wyrms are product of breeding dragons with other pieces? As far as I can see, there is equal evidence (or the lack of them) for both assumptions.

It is actually Septon Barth's assumption and I think Septon Barth is always right.

[Modesty Lannister]

It is actually Septon Barth's assumption and I think Septon Barth is always right.

Sorry, what is Septon Barth's assumption? I need a quote to know what you are referring to.

ETA: I read up a bit and refreshed my memory, so I know what you are referring to. That being said, the fact that septon Barth speculates that dragons were created by Valyrians from wyvern does not go against my assumption that dragonbone was used as raw material for Valyrian steel. As for septon Barth being always right, although I love that version of Davos, I'd be cautious about anyone being always right. People love to say Old Nan is always right, but if we look what she said about the wildlings, we see it is mostly wrong. Translated into other tales, I'd say she is not right at all. That being said, I believe wyvern can be seen as ancestors of dragons and nocturnal black one can even be the ancestor of the ice dragon. Sadly, we do not have much textual support for any of this. But, I understand where you are coming from. However, I do not see anything in this sideways theory that goes against mine, explained in the OP.

[Kraan]

/thread :cool4:

Well done, I was going to reply with a 'well thought out theory, I believe'. Now you saved me from that embarrassment.

but srsly, nice theory.

[Mithras]

Sorry, what is Septon Barth's assumption? I need a quote to know what you are referring to.

"We have flowered in Braavos amongst these northern fogs, but we first took root in Valyria, amongst the wretched slaves who toiled in the deep mines beneath the Fourteen Flames that lit the Freehold’s nights of old. Most mines are dank and chilly places, cut from cold dead stone, but the Fourteen Flames were living mountains with veins of molten rock and hearts of fire. So the mines of old Valyria were always hot, and they grew hotter as the shafts were driven deeper, ever deeper. The slaves toiled in an oven. The rocks around them were too hot to touch. The air stank of brimstone and would sear their lungs as they breathed it. The soles of their feet would burn and blister, even through the thickest sandals. Sometimes, when they broke through a wall in search of gold, they would find steam instead, or boiling water, or molten rock. Certain shafts were cut so low that the slaves could not stand upright, but had to crawl or bend. And there were wyrms in that red darkness too.”

“Earthworms?” she asked, frowning.

“Firewyrms. Some say they are akin to dragons, for wyrms breathe fire too. Instead of soaring through the sky, they bore through stone and soil. If the old tales can be believed, there were wyrms amongst the Fourteen Flames even before the dragons came. The young ones are no larger than that skinny arm of yours, but they can grow to monstrous size and have no love for men.”

“Did they kill the slaves?”

“Burnt and blackened corpses were oft found in shafts where the rocks were cracked or full of holes."

In such fragments of Barth’s Unnatural History as remain, the septon appears to have considered various legends examining the origins of dragons and how they came to be controlled by the Valyrians. The Valyrians themselves claimed that dragons sprang forth as the children of the Fourteen Flames, while in Qarth the tales state that there was once a second moon in the sky. One day this moon was scalded by the sun and cracked like an egg, and a million dragons poured forth. In Asshai, the tales are many and confused, but certain texts— all impossibly ancient— claim that dragons first came from the Shadow, a place where all of our learning fails us. These Asshai’i histories say that a people so ancient they had no name first tamed dragons in the Shadow and brought them to Valyria , teaching the Valyrians their arts before departing from the annals.

Yet if men in the Shadow had tamed dragons first , why did they not conquer as the Valyrians did? It seems likelier that the Valyrian tale is the truest. But there were dragons in Westeros, once, long before the Targaryens came, as our own legends and histories tell us. If dragons did first spring from the Fourteen Flames, they must have been spread across much of the known world before they were tamed. And, in fact, there is evidence for this, as dragon bones have been found as far north as Ib, and even in the jungles of Sothoryos . But the Valyrians harnessed and subjugated them as no one else could.

In Septon Barth’s Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns, he speculated that the bloodmages of Valyria used wyvern stock to create dragons. Though the bloodmages were alleged to have experimented mightily with their unnatural arts, this claim is considered far-fetched by most maesters, among them Maester Vanyon’s Against the Unnatural contains certain proofs of dragons having existed in Westeros even in the earliest of days, before Valyria rose to be a power.

[piotes]

Yeah, I'm not really sure where this belief everyone seems to have that samurai swords are the greatest weapon to ever be created came from.

Right? It gets so annoying when people assume than samurai swords were superior to any other kind of sword. The celts forged their swords the same way as the japanese a thousand or more years before, folding the iron is not secret technique of sorts.

And btw, stronger swords of what kind? A sword is not simply stronger than another, if a longsword clashed a few times with a katana the katana would probably get fucked, but that doesnt make it any less good, its just that theyre different kind of weapons.

Sorry for the offtopic, just wanted to point that out