What is Valyrian Steel Made Of?

[LmL]

Thanks for your inmput LmL. Description of dragonbone in the book Tyrion was reading on his way to the wall led me go through most of the quotes dealing with Valyrian steel. And, unexpectedly, I found the quotes when it is pretty clear the sword is acting on its own or channaling the intent of its carrier. This happened to Jon when fighting Qorin with Longclaw and to Brienne when she fought. Since these were the only two actual fights with Valyrian steel sword in ASOIAF, described from a character's POV, I would not discount it as accidental. And then I reread the Qohor stuff and developed the whole thing. Note that after each beheading, Ned is cleaning his Ice in the WF godswood lake thus effectively sacrificing the blood of the beheaded to the Old Gods. I believe that the odd red colour on the reforged Ice actually belongs to Ned since his was the last head to be chopped off by Ice.

Also, I did not get into this, but you may be interested in the description of that red colour (blood) in Oathkeeper "drinking light" turning dark red.

Yes I've brought up the light-drinking as a connection between Ned's sword, the stone of Asshai, and the meteorites from the destroyed moon. That's why I think Neds sword has 'bloodstone' added to it (remembered that I am talking of the moon rock, a proposed magical version of bloodstone), and is probably not like other V steel.

I definitely find Neds washing the sword in the godswood pool to be significant. Brienne gives the blood of the three she kills to the weirwoods on Crackclaw, and if she kills again in Stoneheart's lair, weirwoods will drink that blood as well. Something is going on here with Brienne, the Evenstar.

[Matoro]

I love this theory. It just works.

[John Suburbs]

I like this too, OP. Makes a lot of sense. I can even see V steel being made of the finest normal steel alloyed with powdered dragonbone in place of the carbon component.

My only question, though, is what is Longclaw's deal? Why would it bail on Jon just when he needed it most?

[LmL]

I like this too, OP. Makes a lot of sense. I can even see V steel being made of the finest normal steel alloyed with powdered dragonbone in place of the carbon component.

My only question, though, is what is Longclaw's deal? Why would it bail on Jon just when he needed it most?

I really find Radio Westeros’ explanation of this scene convincing. The idea is that the first slash across Jon’s neck sliced his jugular - you don’t really feel that much, not many nerve endings there - because the blood welled up immediately beneath his hands, even though he thought it was a scratch. Blood welling immediately means jugular wound - he’s got a minute left to live, t most, from that point. His hand goes numb because he’s already losing feeling. That’s one reason he didn’t feel the last knives. I do think the cold refers to the skinchanger death previewed by Varamyr in the prologue, as many have said, so I’m pretty sold on him hanging out in ghost for a while while his body is preserved and eventually reanimated and the soul put back in. This is why Jon will be different than other wights - he will have a soul, not just a shade with memories.

[Modesty Lannister]

I like this too, OP. Makes a lot of sense. I can even see V steel being made of the finest normal steel alloyed with powdered dragonbone in place of the carbon component.

My only question, though, is what is Longclaw's deal? Why would it bail on Jon just when he needed it most?

Well, it belonged to Jorah (treacherous) Mormont once. Joking aside, this example is least likely to be connected to sentinel properties of Valyrian steel. However, I included it, because we do not know how badly Jon was hurt at the moment. Therefore, it is hard to deduce if it was just a regular injured person unable to reach for his sword or it was a slightly injured person losing connection with his sword. So, take it with a grain of salt.

[Lost Melnibonean]

On first read it reminds me of the Michael Moorcock series which I have not read but everyone lists as an influence - the magic swords (one called stormbringer) are actually demons who took the form of a sword. It seems George may have had an echo of that idea if your theory is correct. The swords aren't demons waiting to change back into entities, but, made from dragonbone, they contain a bit of the dragon's identity and memory. That's a pretty cool idea.

Ok, so now think of the "Dragonsteel" that the NW records refer to, as well as Collquo Votar. They thought it might simply mean Valyrian steel, but most fans have concluded that is too simple. I've been in this camp too, but if your theory is true then Valyrian steel is literally Dragonsteel, steel made from dragonbone.

Interestingly, "frozen fire" kind of applies to obsidian as well as dragonbone.

My question would be about equating a bone with high iron content to steel with a high iron content. The Valyrian steel could be infused with some of the "lively" qualities you noticed via spellcraft of course, perhaps the souls of those sacrificed to make the blade, or some remnant of living fire magic in the blade. But your hypothesis is a nice fit, if indeed Martin is intending to suggest the blades are alive. I know the Others swords and Dawn are both described with being "alive with light," and of course they aren't V steel. So, like most attempts to discern double meanings in Martin's work, there's always that grey area of descriptive language or double meaning. I pretty much pay rent to live in this area, so I know the feeling. We need to see if other swords ever receive such descriptions or only V steel.

It's always been apparent something is very unique about V steel - the two explanations are either a matter of ingredients, process, or both. Your solution is one of ingredients, and I think this is on the right track - it's not just spellcraft, I think. Firstly, dragonflame burns extremely hot (hot enough to melt stone is really ridiculously hot), and so if they use dragon flame to forge the sword, the high level of heat will drive out impurities more effectively. This alone makes their steel better and more pure. But I definitely think it must go farther, as we know spellcraft is involved.

Here's a big issue: if V steel is made with human blood sacrifice, it is inherently evil. No bones about it. (See why I did there? Yeah, you do, okay..) If it's made from dragonbone, then it's a little less heinous, isn't it? That seems an important difference.

Overall great post, and I enjoyed the background on steel working. I'll give this some more thought and let you know if I come up with anything. :cheers:

The Champion Eternal series was awesome.

[LmL]

I knew if I sang your song you would appear, Lost Melnibonean. Any insights from the Moorcock stuff on Valyrian steel re: this discussion?

[Lost Melnibonean]

^I believe Tobho had difficulty because he did not make a sacrifice.

Good thing Gendry got outta Dodge!

[Modesty Lannister]

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1193/

Thanks for attempting to "kill" this thread. And by all means, anyone who thinks this quote is killing it, should continue to believe so.

However, I have seen examples of not so accurate transcriptions of the original text on this website. One example of this can be found on my thread http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/126342-why-was-winterfell-library-burned/

Secondly, the question was "Did Valerians work Dragonbone into Valyrian steel?" The negative answer does not give me enough to conclusively say GRRM gave a "no" to the whole thing. Why? Because, the whole dead dragon is needed, not just its bones. That is, at least, what I am proposing.

Thirdly, GRRM has answered in the Obi Van manner before. So, I just do not see that quote the same way you do. But, thanks for putting it into the thread. However, I am puzzled. We are almost never discussing the show, sticking to the books as cannon. Then suddenly some correspondence with fans that may or may have not be transcribed correctly is cannon. This is not even the secondary source. The author may or may have not dodged the question, the transcription may or may not be accurate (it happened before) and, suddenly, that is cannon. On the other hand, the show created by producers who know how the story ends and coproduced by the author himself is not even considered.

Odd.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Thanks for attempting to "kill" this thread. And by all means, anyone who thinks this quote is killing it, should continue to believe so.

However, I have seen examples of not so accurate transcriptions of the original text on this website. One example of this can be found on my thread http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/126342-why-was-winterfell-library-burned/

Secondly, the question was "Did Valerians work Dragonbone into Valyrian steel?" The negative answer does not give me enough to conclusively say GRRM gave a "no" to the whole thing. Why? Because, the whole dead dragon is needed, not just its bones. That is, at least, what I am proposing.

Thirdly, GRRM has answered in the Obi Van manner before. So, I just do not see that quote the same way you do. But, thanks for putting it into the thread. However, I am puzzled. We are almost never discussing the show, sticking to the books as cannon. Then suddenly some correspondence with fans that may or may have not be transcribed correctly is cannon. This is not even the secondary source. The author may or may have not dodged the question, the transcription may or may not be accurate (it happened before) and, suddenly, that is cannon. On the other hand, the show created by producers who know how the story ends and coproduced by the author himself is not even considered.

Odd.

I don't know ML (that's like LM but backwards :) ), the transcription looks pretty reasonable. There's only so many ways to transcribe no. What does the show have to do with the SSM?

[239JMFL34109]

Iron and carbon and magic

[RumHam]

Thanks for attempting to "kill" this thread. And by all means, anyone who thinks this quote is killing it, should continue to believe so.

However, I have seen examples of not so accurate transcriptions of the original text on this website. One example of this can be found on my thread http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/126342-why-was-winterfell-library-burned/

Secondly, the question was "Did Valerians work Dragonbone into Valyrian steel?" The negative answer does not give me enough to conclusively say GRRM gave a "no" to the whole thing. Why? Because, the whole dead dragon is needed, not just its bones. That is, at least, what I am proposing.

Thirdly, GRRM has answered in the Obi Van manner before. So, I just do not see that quote the same way you do. But, thanks for putting it into the thread. However, I am puzzled. We are almost never discussing the show, sticking to the books as cannon. Then suddenly some correspondence with fans that may or may have not be transcribed correctly is cannon. This is not even the secondary source. The author may or may have not dodged the question, the transcription may or may not be accurate (it happened before) and, suddenly, that is cannon. On the other hand, the show created by producers who know how the story ends and coproduced by the author himself is not even considered.

Odd.

For the record I wasn't trying to kill anything, I just thought you should know. Can you be more specific about the example in the library thread? I don't really feel like going through each page looking for it. You are right that there are many SSMs that have since been overridden. I also know of one instance of a translation error, and one case of the person submitting the report embellishing. Strictly speaking only the published materials are canon. That doesn't mean we should ignore things Martin has explained elsewhere. Generally on the wiki we treat SSMs as canon until they're contradicted by the books or app. Is it possible there was some confusion or that Martin has changed his mind? Sure. Though as Lost Melnibonean points out it's hard to imagine the source of any confusion in this case.

The show is not canon simply because it has deviated from the books since the first season. So the two stories are simply not compatible. You can't have Marmilion having his tongue torn out by Joffrey and still play his role in the Vale plot later on. You can't have Robb married to Jeyne and Talisa. I could go on but the point should be clear.

[Modesty Lannister]

For the record I wasn't trying to kill anything, I just thought you should know. Can you be more specific about the example in the library thread? I don't really feel like going through each page looking for it. You are right that there are many SSMs that have since been overridden. I also know of one instance of a translation error, and one case of the person submitting the report embellishing. Strictly speaking only the published materials are canon. That doesn't mean we should ignore things Martin has explained elsewhere. Generally on the wiki we treat SSMs as canon until they're contradicted by the books or app. Is it possible there was some confusion or that Martin has changed his mind? Sure. Though as Lost Melnibonean points out it's hard to imagine the source of any confusion in this case.

The show is not canon simply because it has deviated from the books since the first season. So the two stories are simply not compatible. You can't have Marmilion having his tongue torn out by Joffrey and still play his role in the Vale plot later on. You can't have Robb married to Jeyne and Talisa. I could go on but the point should be clear.

For the example you seek, look posts 140 to 144 on my thread about WF library. You will see how much the transcribed version differed from the original. As you said, SSMs have proven to be unreliable many times, so I am not sure why would you like us to know about something that may not be right. SSMs are not treated as cannon even by Wiki of Ice and Fire. I thanked you already, so no need to do it again. For 99% of the readers this thread is dead, because of something GRRM may have said. Since we do not have access to the original of that correspondence, we will never know.

[Lost Melnibonean]

For the example you seek, look posts 140 to 144 on my thread about WF library. You will see how much the transcribed version differed from the original. As you said, SSMs have proven to be unreliable many times, so I am not sure why would you like us to know about something that may not be right. SSMs are not treated as cannon even by Wiki of Ice and Fire. I thanked you already, so no need to do it again. For 99% of the readers this thread is dead, because of something GRRM may have said. Since we do not have access to the original of that correspondence, we will never know.

It was a hell of an OP, very compelling. Heck, you got to two pages even after RumHam wrapped his hands about your thread's pale white throat and choked the life from it.

[LmL]

I agree it is a good OP, and the research is valid even if the conclusion doesn't hold. Martin does seem to be portraying the V steel as alive, and I think it's worth the time to speculate as to what he might be implying. I found all of the references to bones very interesting as well - Martin is clearly developing a theme of some kind with bones.

[Modesty Lannister]

It was a hell of an OP, very compelling. Heck, you got to two pages even after RumHam wrapped his hands about your thread's pale white throat and choked the life from it.

Well, if you are comparing quoting alleged correspondence between a fan and the author, which we have no means of verifying, to a Valonqar, I can be on board with that.

[OrangeStallion]

I like the theory it is infused with obsidian.

I don't understand the science, but in the context of the story is makes sense

[Lost Melnibonean]

Well, if you are comparing quoting alleged correspondence between a fan and the author, which we have no means of verifying, to a Valonqar, I can be on board with that.

There you go!

[Littlefinger's dagger]

You should be very clear what you mean by "infused with obsidian." Metal and glass (obsidian is naturally occurring glass with some impurities) don't really mix well.

If you take pure molten glass and sprinkle in metal dust you can color the glass, but most of the metal just stays as little flakes of metal. only a tiny amount actually reacts chemically, but that's all that's needed to make most colored glass.

If you take molten smelted steel and sprinkle in some crushed obsidian (you'd need to add a couple other things as well) you'd get the silicon oxide and the other oxides to deoxidize and the silicon and other elements could form a true alloy with the steel. Unfortunately the result is an unacceptably brittle alloy that has better electrical conductivity. Complete crap for making a sword.

Natural bone is both a material (calcium phosphate and some other things) and a honeycomb like structure (which makes it both lighter and stronger. They can do this with steel now). The idea of substituting elemental iron for the calcium doesn't work chemically, the whole material would be different.

So if one had a piece of this theoretical bone, I can see how it would be difficult to impossible to work without destroying the internal structure making it light and strong.

[Evolett]

I definitely like the idea of Dragonbone as the source for Valyrian steel. The high percentage of iron makes it a good candidate but I find the material's flexibility (as seen with the dragonbone bows) an equally or perhaps even more important property. So far we have seen obsidian and castle-forged steel in action against the Others. The obsidian works, steel fails. What bothers me about obsidian blades is that although they are 'frozen fire' and doubtless work, we've only seen small weapons made of the material so far - arrowheads, daggers, spearheads. No long swords or larger weapons. I guess this is because dragonglass is not flexible enough to be useful as a longsword. It's even more brittle than steel. In a one on one fight, blocking is vital and I suspect an obsidian sword would shatter on contact with an Other's sword much like Ser Waymar's steel blade shattered into tiny bits. That was a bit of speculation. Whatever the case we've seen no obsidian longswords but a fair number of Valyrian swords and I suspect Valyrian swords do exhibit flexibility.

That the 'bones remember' works for me too. I can imagine that activating this memory in the sword would require sorcery. Here are a few passages about the dragon skulls at the Red Keep which support the notion that the bones are somehow sentient:

I rode the length of the hall in silence, between the long rows of dragon skulls. It felt as though they were watching me, somehow. AGOT Eddard II

He had expected to find them impressive, perhaps even frightening. He had not thought to find them beautiful. Yet they were. As black as onyx, polished smooth, so the bone seemed to shimmer in the light of his torch. They liked the fire, he sensed. He’d thrust the torch into the mouth of one of the larger skulls and made the shadows leap and dance on the wall behind him. The teeth were long, curving knives of black diamond. The flame of the torch was nothing to them; they had bathed in the heat of far greater fires. When he had moved away, Tyrion could have sworn that the beast’s empty eye sockets had watched him go. AGOT, Tyrion I

“It’s dead,” she said aloud. “It’s just a skull, it can’t hurt me.” Yet somehow the monster seemed to know she was there. She could feel its empty eyes watching her through the gloom, and there was something in that dim, cavernous room that did not love her. She edged away from the skull and backed into a second, larger than the first. For an instant she could feel its teeth digging into her shoulder, as if it wanted a bite of her flesh. Arya whirled, felt leather catch and tear as a huge fang nipped at her jerkin, and then she was running. Another skull loomed ahead, the biggest monster of all, but Arya did not even slow. She leapt over a ridge of black teeth as tall as swords, dashed through hungry jaws, and threw herself against the door. AGOT, Arya

Interesting also the description of the teeth. They are tall as swords. Hm, our bones have a high calcium content, our teeth even more.....

A plausible theory but I do have one question: what role does the dragonflesh play in the forging process?