Modesty Lannister Posted April 8, 2015 Author Share Posted April 8, 2015 (Can't quote from tablet). That would be a good way of keeping the bond in the steel. Though it would be limiting if dragon and rider should be separated or perish at different times. Perhaps that's when the children Pol spoke of came into play (sorry if I'm stubbornly clinging to that part, I do think there's something to it). If the infants were of Old Valyrian descent, they would still have the magic in their blood to do the trick. Thinking of the infants, I can't help but think of Craster's sons. That may be why The Others were collecting them, to aid in the manufacturing of their own weapons. I could see them sharing something like that with the Valyrian's, just at a different temperature. They would need to arm themselves for the upcoming war. They'd need the blood of First Men/Old Valyria that's bonded to (or capable of bonding to) an animal/dragon and weirwood/dragonbone to make the ice/VS weapons. I don't mean Ice as in Ned's sword, but ice as in the material that makes the Others weapons. Very nice and logical. You should expand this into a theory. But, in terms of the most powerful weapon, I believe an animal and its bonded human are the perfect match. I know it is not cannon, but in the show, Tywin sacrifices Greywind's fur to reforge Ice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkSister1001 Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Very nice and logical. You should expand this into a theory. But, in terms of the most powerful weapon, I believe an animal and its bonded human are the perfect match. I know it is not cannon, but in the show, Tywin sacrifices Greywind's fur to reforge Ice. Thanks! As for the bolded part, I must have missed that. Some of the stuff in the show is good info. I know it doesn't follow the books verbatim, but I have to assume that since D&D are so well informed that they have parts they add that connect to the books. Back to the topic - aside from the loss of the smith's that worked VS in the doom, if blood from someone of Valyrian descent is needed to forge the steel, the decrease in VS objects could also be bc of the decrease in subjects for the sacrifice (dragons & their riders/descendants). I always found the personification of the dragon skulls in KL as suspicious. Every bit of your OP just confirms my suspicions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Very nice and logical. You should expand this into a theory. But, in terms of the most powerful weapon, I believe an animal and its bonded human are the perfect match. I know it is not cannon, but in the show, Tywin sacrifices Greywind's fur to reforge Ice. Do we get actualy confirmation it's a sacrifice or is that just your take on it? As far as I remember, it's a no-spoken-word intro and it just looks like he's burning the sheath it came in. I took it as symbolism for the Starks being done and the Lannisters being the true owner(s) of the weapons. Robb never wielded Ice did he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 ^No, Robb never wielded ice. He may have held it, but it was in Kings Landing while he was lord/king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Re: SSM, As RumHam says, things that are "in error" are in error now because George changed his mind. One of the things we note in the SSM is that everything George says is provisional -- he reserves his right to change his mind. Has he changed his mind about dragonbone not being part of Valyrian steel? I strongly doubt it, personally, but I won't rule it out. As to provenance, most entries in the correspondence section are from e-mails forwarded to us, with headers and all. Could they be forged? Yes, but it takes quite a lot of knowledge to do it right, and the thing is I knew what headers going to and from GRRM's local SMTPs on AOL looked like, so I'd see something fishy if someone tried to do it. Now, I can't specifically recall where tyrion_targaryen's came from, although the way it's written tells me it wasn't an email, but actually a discussion on AIM (back in the day, people could actually get a hold of GRRM over AIM) which was copied over to me and which matched the details I would expect to see in a legitimate AIM chat. To my knowledge, only one piece of information was ever placed in the SSM that was an outright invention by a fan, a matter that was corrected when we were informed about it. There have been, as RumHam said, errors in that sometimes someone transcribed something incorrectly, but this was straight-up an electronic communication between George and tyrion_targaryen, so no transcription necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted April 8, 2015 Author Share Posted April 8, 2015 Re: SSM, As RumHam says, things that are "in error" are in error now because George changed his mind. One of the things we note in the SSM is that everything George says is provisional -- he reserves his right to change his mind. Has he changed his mind about dragonbone not being part of Valyrian steel? I strongly doubt it, personally, but I won't rule it out. As to provenance, most entries in the correspondence section are from e-mails forwarded to us, with headers and all. Could they be forged? Yes, but it takes quite a lot of knowledge to do it right, and the thing is I knew what headers going to and from GRRM's local SMTPs on AOL looked like, so I'd see something fishy if someone tried to do it. Now, I can't specifically recall where tyrion_targaryen's came from, although the way it's written tells me it wasn't an email, but actually a discussion on AIM (back in the day, people could actually get a hold of GRRM over AIM) which was copied over to me and which matched the details I would expect to see in a legitimate AIM chat. To my knowledge, only one piece of information was ever placed in the SSM that was an outright invention by a fan, a matter that was corrected when we were informed about it. There have been, as RumHam said, errors in that sometimes someone transcribed something incorrectly, but this was straight-up an electronic communication between George and tyrion_targaryen, so no transcription necessary. Excellent. Thank you for clarifying it. Way to run a forum. :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted April 8, 2015 Author Share Posted April 8, 2015 Do we get actualy confirmation it's a sacrifice or is that just your take on it? As far as I remember, it's a no-spoken-word intro and it just looks like he's burning the sheath it came in. I took it as symbolism for the Starks being done and the Lannisters being the true owner(s) of the weapons. Robb never wielded Ice did he? Well, I don't like to link the show and the books (and sacrifice of children in Qohor is mentioned in TWOIAF, so we know some sacrifice is needed, but we do not know what kind precisely), but in the shot it is clear that Tywin is throwing direwolf skin and fur onto the fire where Ice is being reforged. It is reasonable to assume that it should be Greywind's fur. And yes, Robb never held Ice, but he is a Stark and a direwolf is on Stark sigil. I think the show stressed that link rather than Robb being in possession of Ice (that never happened). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted April 8, 2015 Author Share Posted April 8, 2015 Thanks! As for the bolded part, I must have missed that. Some of the stuff in the show is good info. I know it doesn't follow the books verbatim, but I have to assume that since D&D are so well informed that they have parts they add that connect to the books. Back to the topic - aside from the loss of the smith's that worked VS in the doom, if blood from someone of Valyrian descent is needed to forge the steel, the decrease in VS objects could also be bc of the decrease in subjects for the sacrifice (dragons & their riders/descendants). I always found the personification of the dragon skulls in KL as suspicious. Every bit of your OP just confirms my suspicions. I think George has done enough to stress sentinel qualities of statues in the WF crypts, Red Keep corridors where dragon sculls are held and, as I quoted in OP, even the behaviour of VS swords. We ignore it at our peril. b) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkSister1001 Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Bit of advice for everyone...careful Googling human and blood sacrifices on your work computer. Could lead to a very interesting HR meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Bit of advice for everyone...careful Googling human and blood sacrifices on your work computer. Could lead to a very interesting HR meeting.At least you didn't google incest as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Well, I don't like to link the show and the books (and sacrifice of children in Qohor is mentioned in TWOIAF, so we know some sacrifice is needed, but we do not know what kind precisely), but in the shot it is clear that Tywin is throwing direwolf skin and fur onto the fire where Ice is being reforged. It is reasonable to assume that it should be Greywind's fur. And yes, Robb never held Ice, but he is a Stark and a direwolf is on Stark sigil. I think the show stressed that link rather than Robb being in possession of Ice (that never happened). Someone could view the scene from Ep 1-1 and see if there is a fur scabbard that has to do with Ice, either at the beheading or when Ned is cleaning the sword in the godswood. Though the fur scabbard could be a show ret-con. ETA: In the books, Ice was reforged well before the Red Wedding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkSister1001 Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Do we get actualy confirmation it's a sacrifice or is that just your take on it? As far as I remember, it's a no-spoken-word intro and it just looks like he's burning the sheath it came in. I took it as symbolism for the Starks being done and the Lannisters being the true owner(s) of the weapons. Robb never wielded Ice did he? ^No, Robb never wielded ice. He may have held it, but it was in Kings Landing while he was lord/king. Well, I don't like to link the show and the books (and sacrifice of children in Qohor is mentioned in TWOIAF, so we know some sacrifice is needed, but we do not know what kind precisely), but in the shot it is clear that Tywin is throwing direwolf skin and fur onto the fire where Ice is being reforged. It is reasonable to assume that it should be Greywind's fur. And yes, Robb never held Ice, but he is a Stark and a direwolf is on Stark sigil. I think the show stressed that link rather than Robb being in possession of Ice (that never happened). I think if it were Robb's VS sword it might mean more. But connected by being Starks and it being a direwolf pelt I'd think should suffice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Someone could view the scene from Ep 1-1 and see if there is a fur scabbard that has to do with Ice, either at the beheading or when Ned is cleaning the sword in the godswood. Though the fur scabbard could be a show ret-con. ETA: In the books, Ice was reforged well before the Red Wedding. Ned pulls Ice out of a fur scabbard being held by Theon. Got a screenshot http://i.imgur.com/mEdxyQx.png Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Someone could view the scene from Ep 1-1 and see if there is a fur scabbard that has to do with Ice, either at the beheading or when Ned is cleaning the sword in the godswood. Though the fur scabbard could be a show ret-con. ETA: In the books, Ice was reforged well before the Red Wedding.Ice' scabbaed in season 1 Episode one was in fact a dark wolf skin with some lighter markings on it, Theon is holding it when Ned draws it. In season 4 episode 1 it is in fact the same wolf skin scabbard. So not a bad continuity job at all there by D&D.ETA: Some ninja stole my glory. My wolf skin glory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted April 8, 2015 Author Share Posted April 8, 2015 Ned pulls Ice out of a fur scabbard being held by Theon. Got a screenshot http://i.imgur.com/mEdxyQx.png I think that is what Tywin has sacrificed. Good eye! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk2tn8V0D-Y Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 I think that is what Tywin has sacrificed. Good eye! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk2tn8V0D-Y The same idea holds as the 'sacrificing' of a dead dragon, there is no actual sacrifice. Tywin is not giving-up something he values. To him, the wolf pelt is garbage. Though perhaps fate is forcing a sacrifice out of the Lannisters, through the loss of Jaime's hand. On another note, the instances of the VS blade's being 'alive' in fighter's hands. Are there other instances of the same metaphors or do the only occur with VS blades? Is it a case of specific symbology of VS or just a way to write that the sword is lighter and moves faster than the fighters think it will, not being used to VS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of the Vale Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Valyrian Stel is probaly just high qualety Stel that have been folded houndreds of times and infused with magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Patroclo Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Valyrian Stel is probaly just high qualety Stel that have been folded houndreds of times and infused with magic. This mith is already debunked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkSister1001 Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 What about the Valyrian steel links on some maseter chains? Do the maester's actually forge their links themselves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 ^I would imagine that they have the links and they open and close the other metals around them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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