TrackerNeil Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 It is my belief that if you are a woman and you are born in the US, the UK, or any western nation for that matter, you are already one of the luckiest women alive. If your genitals weren't mutilated at birth, if you weren't forced into an arranged marriage, if you can leave the house without basically wearing a halloween costume and without a male escort, then you don't really have a right to rage against "Patriarchy" and you insult the billions of women who do live with these things. I believe men and women should be given equal opportunity in every field, including the military. And both genders should be held to the same standard. So unless you face the most oppression possible, you should not "rage" against the oppression you do face? Doesn't that pretty much invalidate every civil rights movement ever? On a different topic, Jonathan Bernstein has a great read today about the things political scientists really wish they could get us to believe. The one about "independents" really struck me; I can't tell you how many times I've seen self-declared independents who were just offended by the suggestion that most "independents" vote exactly like partisans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannatic Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 So unless you face the most oppression possible, you should not "rage" against the oppression you do face? Doesn't that pretty much invalidate every civil rights movement ever? On a different topic, Jonathan Bernstein has a great read today about the things political scientists really wish they could get us to believe. The one about "independents" really struck me; I can't tell you how many times I've seen self-declared independents who were just offended by the suggestion that most "independents" vote exactly like partisans. *Groan* No. Re read what I said a bit more carefully. I don't think it's right to rage against PATRIARCHY for the same reason I think people that say things like "I am a retail slave" and "My boss is a Nazi" are wrong. By doing so you wrongly put your self into a category of people that have suffered at the hands of those institution. I never claimed everything was just fine and dandy when it comes to womens rights in the western world, but it can be worse. Alot worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrackerNeil Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 *Groan* No. Re read what I said a bit more carefully. I don't think it's right to rage against PATRIARCHY for the same reason I think people that say things like "I am a retail slave" and "My boss is a Nazi" are wrong. By doing so you wrongly put your self into a category of people that have suffered at the hands of those institution. I never claimed everything was just fine and dandy when it comes to womens rights in the western world, but it can be worse. Alot worse. I'm pleased I made you groan so quickly. I have that way with men. :cool4: So if I understand you (at your behest, I re-read your post), you seem to draw some distinction between agitating against unfairness and identifying the pattern that lies behind that unfairness. Feminists might say (and I would agree) that patriarchy is that pattern, and if that is the case, then pointing out inequality is no different than pointing out the existence of a patriarchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannatic Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 If that's what you feel to be the case then clearly nothing I will say can change that. Like I said it is simply my personal opinion that it is wrong to claim to be the victim of something that, fortunately, very few of us have encountered in its true form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 If that's what you feel to be the case then clearly nothing I will say can change that. Like I said it is simply my personal opinion that it is wrong to claim to be the victim of something that, fortunately, very few of us have encountered in its true form. Do you mean that women should not complain about the persistent discrimination that still exists, because of the lack of a literal supervillain named the Patriarchy who commits misogynistic atrocities? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrackerNeil Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 If that's what you feel to be the case then clearly nothing I will say can change that. Like I said it is simply my personal opinion that it is wrong to claim to be the victim of something that, fortunately, very few of us have encountered in its true form. Well, you have not encountered the patriarchy, perhaps, but if you are a man (as I have assumed) then that's not surprising. It's difficult to notice a hindrance that doesn't hinder you. Not that I benefit any less from patriarchy (maybe a little less as a gay man, but let's not quibble), but through the work of feminists I have at least been able to recognize the benefits that I derive from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannatic Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Do you mean that women should not complain about the persistent discrimination that stull exists, because of the lack of a literal supervillain named the Patriarchy who commits misogynistic atrocities? Never said that, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannatic Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Well, you have not encountered the patriarchy, perhaps, but if you are a man (as I have assumed) then that's not surprising. It's difficult to notice a hindrance that doesn't hinder you. Not that I benefit any less from patriarchy (maybe a little less as a gay man, but let's not quibble), but through the work of feminists I have at least been able to recognize the benefits that I derive from it. I find it funny that people automatically assume that I am a white, straight male. As if anyone but a WASP male could hold the opinions that I do. No, I have never encountered the patriarchy in the wild. But I have been discriminated against more than once because of my age. But I have been discriminated against more than once because I am an American. It sucks but I'm not going to call these people Nazis or something they clearly aren't/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wise Fool Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I'm hungry. But, I'm not starving to death, not one of the millions of people who face constant hunger and malnutrition around the world, so I should not say "I'm hungry." Fuck that! I'm hungry! Stannatic sez: The reason you might see me criticize the modern feminist movement is because I believe in alot of ways it has become a parody of its former self. It is my belief that if you are a woman and you are born in the US, the UK, or any western nation for that matter, you are already one of the luckiest women alive. If your genitals weren't mutilated at birth, if you weren't forced into an arranged marriage, if you can leave the house without basically wearing a halloween costume and without a male escort, then you don't really have a right to rage against "Patriarchy" and you insult the billions of women who do live with these things. In no way have you supported the absurd, dismissive claim that feminism is a self-parody. You have only stated the "there are starving kids in Africa, so you're not really hungry" fallacy and that women do not have a "right to rage against Patriarchy." And yet those examples of women being systematically oppressed, if anything, only show why feminism is important now as it ever was. I think the problem with feminism is the people who come out against it. The parody of feminism is not self-parody, but done by people who for whatever reasons think feminism is a thing that needs shitting upon. Gamergaters, for example. Your sarcastic strawman about "raging against Patriarchy" is very reminiscent of how anti-feminists portray feminism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrackerNeil Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I find it funny that people automatically assume that I am a white, straight male. As if anyone but a WASP male could hold the opinions that I do. No, I have never encountered the patriarchy in the wild. But I have been discriminated against more than once because of my age. But I have been discriminated against more than once because I am an American. It sucks but I'm not going to call these people Nazis or something they clearly aren't/ Stannatic, I pointed out my assumption so that it would be clear I was assuming. If you'd like to correct that assumption, please do so. Look, we've all suffered injustice at one time or another, sure. However, just because I have experienced discrimination doesn't mean the overall oppression I face is necessarily the same as someone else's. Surely you can see that, yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Never said that, no. So your stance seems to be that American women shouldn't complain about persistent discrimination because they're not facing genital mutilation as a cultural norm? That they should just appreciate that they have it better than, say, Saudi women? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Never said that, no. He was trying to clarify what you meant, because what you're saying is not clear and attempts to clarify have been largely unsuccessful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awesome possum Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Not sure if this completely belongs here, but I don't know if it's worthy of a new topic. Kansas state authorities have seized an 11-year-old boy from school and raided his mother's house after he disagreed with some "facts" during an anti-pot demonstration at his school. On March 24, cannabis oil activist Shona Banda‘s life was flipped upside-down after her son was taken from her by the State of Kansas. The ordeal started when police and counselors at her 11-year-old son’s school conducted a drug education class. Her son, who had previously lived in Colorado for a period of time, disagreed with some of the anti-pot points that were being made by school officials. “My son says different things like my ‘Mom calls it cannabis and not marijuana.’ He let them know how educated he was on the facts,” said Banda in an exclusive interview with BenSwann.com. Banda successfully treated her own Crohn’s disease with cannabis oil. After her son spoke out about medical marijuana, police detained him and launched a raid on Shona Banda’s home. “Well, they had that drug education class at school that was just conducted by the counselors… They pulled my son out of school at about 1:40 in the afternoon and interrogated him. Police showed up at my house at 3… I let them know that they weren’t allowed in my home without a warrant… I didn’t believe you could get a warrant off of something a child says in school.” Banda continued, “We waited from 3 o’clock until 6 o’clock. They got a warrant at 6 o’clock at night and executed a warrant into my home. My husband and I are separated, and neither parent was contacted by authorities before [our son] was taken and questioned.” The police apparently found 2 ounces of cannabis oil in her home. She fears that the state will now attempt to take her son away. She has a custody hearing on Monday. What the fuck is wrong with this country? Stories about kids being taken by authorities because they were at a park by themselves or walking through their neighborhood, now this? My blood is boiling at this bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannatic Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I agree Neil. But I also believe when it comes to the issue of discrimination anything but an absolutist view is wrong. The discrimination you and I experienced should not be held as any more or less important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 So your stance seems to be that American women shouldn't complain about persistent discrimination because they're not facing genital mutilation as a cultural norm? That they should just appreciate that they have it better than, say, Saudi women?What is the persistent discrimination American women face? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awesome possum Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 What is the persistent discrimination American women face? Come on. Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted April 17, 2015 Author Share Posted April 17, 2015 [mod hat] This is a thread on politics. Let's curb the derail on what constitutes patriarchy and what constitutes discrimination. In other words, this is not the Freshman intro to Contemporary Social Issues of America. [/mod hat] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inigima Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Here's another civil forfeiture case to get your blood boiling: http://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2015/04/16/veteran-forfeiture-nebraska/Never charged with a crime. Only circumstantial evidence of any wrongdoing whatsoever. Police have confiscated $60k+ with no intention of ever returning it and without showing any evidence of a criminal offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Here's another civil forfeiture case to get your blood boiling: http://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2015/04/16/veteran-forfeiture-nebraska/Never charged with a crime. Only circumstantial evidence of any wrongdoing whatsoever. Police have confiscated $60k+ with no intention of ever returning it and without showing any evidence of a criminal offense. Jesus christ. "My dog smelled weed and you had a lot of cash, so it's mine now." It's pure legalized robbery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Didn't Holder order a cessation to civil forfeiture like that? Or did that only apply to feds? etanevermind, Holder's statement was from January, this case goes back to 2011. That's fucked up. If this ever happened to me I'd call the LE department that stole it, and the local FBI or state police and report a robbery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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