aceluby Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 I've actually voted straight Libertarian for the past two elections. Then why are you talking about Rand Paul? He's not a Libertarian, he's a Republican. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 The Israeli Supreme court ruled that this situation is most similar to an occupied territory out of all the listed in the GC. The fact is there is no conflict that compares to the one in Israel and the territories. As someone said a page or two earlier, politically genocide would have served them better Again, name a single country in the last 100 years where their world standing was helped by genocide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Again, name a single country in the last 100 years where their world standing was helped by genocide. I understand what he's saying. Its not that genocide helps world standing compared to being morally responsible, its that the world community gets over genocide faster than a long-running, still present situation like that in Israel. For instance, Germany, Rwanda, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Turkey are all in better standing than Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodRider Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 5 derps out of 5 derps. I guess nobody will die in a Socialist utopia that doesn't need to. Nobody will starve to death in breadlines and nobody will die waiting for a doctor on that single payer health care. And that's cute. If nothing else I respect your opinion, but as is mostly the case with people like you, something gives you the opinion you are above me. I'm sorry I didn't know you were part of the intelligentsia class master.Your whataboutism is book and page Soviet era Communist propaganda tactics. Than as now it is a dodge to avoid talking about how utterly bankrupt your philosophy is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Self-described "Tea Party patriot" comes around to the realization that the Republican Party hasn't done shit for him in decades, and maybe the Democrats may have helped him out with this Obamacare thing: "Hello, YouTube. I'm kinda having a difficult decision," Webb lamented in the 3-minute video. "I don't know which party to vote for. ... I don't know whether to go for a Republican or a Democrat -- and I'm serious. Because I asked myself, I said, 'Which party has helped me out the most in the last, I don't know, 15 years? Twenty?' And it was the Repub-, err, Democrat Party. The Democrats." "I mean if it wasn't for Obama and that Obamacare, I would still be working," Webb continued. "With Obamacare, I got to retire at age 50. Because if it wasn't for Obamacare I would had to work till I was 65 and get on Medicare because health insurance is expensive." ... "The Republican Party they ain't done nothing for me, man. Nothing," Webb said. "So, I'm leaning toward voting for Hillary. Unless something major comes up. I don't trust the Republicans anymore. They're wanting to repeal the Obamacare. And, I don't want them to do that, man, 'cause then I'll have to go to work again." http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/james-webb-tea-partier-obamacare-hillary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted April 16, 2015 Author Share Posted April 16, 2015 Self-described "Tea Party patriot" comes around to the realization that the Republican Party hasn't done shit for him in decades, and maybe the Democrats may have helped him out with this Obamacare thing: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/james-webb-tea-partier-obamacare-hillary Not sure that it's a ringing endorsement of PPACA, because the idea is to make heath care affordable to all, not to make it so that some peope will be able to not work. I don't think this will play well with the pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstrap type Republicans at all. That said, I do not begrudge this man of the boon from PPACA, either. If someone is in poor health, then yes, they shouldn't have to work themselves to death. And then, my sekptical side says that this may be just a troll, a sort of reverse Poe's law thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Not sure that it's a ringing endorsement of PPACA, because the idea is to make heath care affordable to all, not to make it so that some peope will be able to not work. I don't think this will play well with the pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstrap type Republicans at all. That said, I do not begrudge this man of the boon from PPACA, either. If someone is in poor health, then yes, they shouldn't have to work themselves to death. And then, my sekptical side says that this may be just a troll, a sort of reverse Poe's law thing. There's a difference between having to work past middle age to support yourself and having to work just to have health coverage. My mother worked past retirement age because of health care, and worked until the day she died. We have a labor surplus in this country. If people are able to drop out of the work force at an earlier age because health care costs are no longer a Beast That Cannot Be Fed, that sounds like a massive social benefit to me. On the issue of whether or not it plays with the bootstrapper Republicans, fuck those guys. I am hoping this is some kind of early indicator that the poor and middle class whites who were snookered into the Reagan coalition are reconsidering their allegiance to the Republicans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maithanet Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Not sure that it's a ringing endorsement of PPACA, because the idea is to make heath care affordable to all, not to make it so that some peope will be able to not work. I don't think this will play well with the pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstrap type Republicans at all. That said, I do not begrudge this man of the boon from PPACA, either. If someone is in poor health, then yes, they shouldn't have to work themselves to death. And then, my sekptical side says that this may be just a troll, a sort of reverse Poe's law thing. It's possible, but I know a couple of people that were between 55 and 65, and once Obamacare went into effect, they could retire, because they had enough savings to support themselves. The reason they hadn't already retired was because they also had some health problems (as virtually everyone that age does), which meant that they couldn't really get insurance at any price on the "free" market. So they had to stay at thier jobs until they could get on medicare. I don't know if this is the situation with Webb, but to me those are absolutely banner cases of Obamacare working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrackerNeil Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 It's possible, but I know a couple of people that were between 55 and 65, and once Obamacare went into effect, they could retire, because they had enough savings to support themselves. The reason they hadn't already retired was because they also had some health problems (as virtually everyone that age does), which meant that they couldn't really get insurance at any price on the "free" market. So they had to stay at thier jobs until they could get on medicare. I don't know if this is the situation with Webb, but to me those are absolutely banner cases of Obamacare working. Totally. Those people dropping out of the job market opens up opportunities for younger workers, which is supposedly what we want, right? Also, I'm a bit tired of conservatives getting prickly about who might be getting free stuff. We all receive government subsidies of one kind or another, but Republicans only complain when poor people are the ones getting the payoff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 I understand what he's saying. Its not that genocide helps world standing compared to being morally responsible, its that the world community gets over genocide faster than a long-running, still present situation like that in Israel. For instance, Germany, Rwanda, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Turkey are all in better standing than Israel. They don't 'get over it faster' in cases of genocide, that's ridiculous. What happens is it spurs the international community to action, wars are started, govts are toppled, and the recovery is heavily regulated by the international community. The govts that commit those atrocities look absolutely NOTHING like the ones that come out of it. To say Israel would be better off committing genocide is completely ignoring the fact that the international community wouldn't allow it, wars would be started, the people would suffer, and the state of Israel as it stands today would basically no longer exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 They don't 'get over it faster' in cases of genocide, that's ridiculous. What happens is it spurs the international community to action, wars are started, govts are toppled, and the recovery is heavily regulated by the international community. The govts that commit those atrocities look absolutely NOTHING like the ones that come out of it. To say Israel would be better off committing genocide is completely ignoring the fact that the international community wouldn't allow it, wars would be started, the people would suffer, and the state of Israel as it stands today would basically no longer exist. The West Germany government had plenty of ex-Nazis and Ottomans/Turkey never faced consequences for the Armenian genocide. Rwanda saw a replacement government come in, but many of the ex-government officials are in neighboring countries with varying levels of international support. I honestly don't know much about Bosnia post-war so I won't comment on that one. And then there's countries I didn't even mention; like Japan, which arguably committed some level of genocide in China in WWII and they were never held to account; Japan was never de-showaed (or whatever the term is) the way parts of Germany were de-Nazified. Maybe things would be different if happened today today. But, and while I'm obviously not supporting this, if Israel had committed genocide back in the 1950s it probably would not be nearly as isolated internationally as it currently is due to the neverending nature of the conflict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 The West Germany government had plenty of ex-Nazis and Ottomans/Turkey never faced consequences for the Armenian genocide. Rwanda saw a replacement government come in, but many of the ex-government officials are in neighboring countries with varying levels of international support. I honestly don't know much about Bosnia post-war so I won't comment on that one. And then there's countries I didn't even mention; like Japan, which arguably committed some level of genocide in China in WWII and they were never held to account; Japan was never de-showaed (or whatever the term is) the way parts of Germany were de-Nazified. Maybe things would be different if happened today today. But, and while I'm obviously not supporting this, if Israel had committed genocide back in the 1950s it probably would not be nearly as isolated internationally as it currently is due to the neverending nature of the conflict. A country surrounded by muslims and arabs committing genocide on muslims and arabs would be LESS isolated than if it hadn't? Okay, if you say so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannatic Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Then why are you talking about Rand Paul? He's not a Libertarian, he's a Republican. Because I believe he is a little R, big L Republican. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
all swedes are racist Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 A repubLican? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Rand Paul talks the Libertarian talk, but he walks the Republican walk. What he has to say sounds interesting (if kooky). However, his voting record makes my skin crawl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Rand Paul talks the Libertarian talk, but he walks the Republican walk. What he has to say sounds interesting (if kooky). However, his voting record makes my skin crawl.Just curious, does this supposed "discrepancy" take into account bills that he's introduced? Specifically the ones aimed at reforming drug laws, justice system, etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodRider Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Just curious, does this supposed "discrepancy" take into account bills that he's introduced? Specifically the ones aimed at reforming drug laws, justice system, etc? They mean nothing, because it is pure political theater. THE BILLS, THEY MEAN NOTHING. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThinkerX Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Just curious, does this supposed "discrepancy" take into account bills that he's introduced? Specifically the ones aimed at reforming drug laws, justice system, etc? Realistically, especially with this congress and this president, did ANY of those ever have a realistic shot at becoming enacted? Or were they more symbolism of the sort that led even relatively sane republicans to vote thirty-some times to repeal the ACA - KNOWING that wasn't going to happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted April 17, 2015 Author Share Posted April 17, 2015 I am inclined to actually given Paul the credit for drafting those bills. Whether it's kabuki or not, he did it, which is more than what most other tea-party-riding politicians managed to do. So I think it's fair to be charitable and credit him where it's due. I am also inclined to simply concede that Paul is probably the most libertarian politician in the current Senate. I honestly don't know of any other who has a better credential than he does. But I also agree that his rhetorics are inconsistent with his voting actions and even his rhetorics are sometimes inconsistent with his other rhetorics. While that's not a problem unique to Paul, and indeed, many politicians suffer similar problems, I think it's still fair to point out that Paul may just be uttering the right words without really the intention to implement or put into effect these things that he talks about. It is hard to judge because the caucusing issue here is that Paul can't get anything done, ever, if he doesn't play ball with the GOP on some issues. So much of politics is horse-trading votes on your pet issues against the votes for other people's pet issues. So a view of the voting record outside of the proper context is not the best assessment, imo. I think a better assessment of a politician's true belief is to examine where s/he spends her true political capital. It's okay if Paul voted against his stated ideals on issues A, B, and C, as long as, in doing so, he manages to push through D and E, which ARE consistent with a Libertarian philosophy. I am not aware that he has managed that much, but I could simply be uneducated on the legislative triumphs of Paul. Maybe, once I learn more about it, I will see that it is more impressive than his credential as an ophthamologist and his undergraduate degrees in English and Biology! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inigima Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 House Republicans have passed a repeal of the estate tax. It now moves to the Senate. Passage is unlikely, particularly since the President has threatened a veto. http://news.yahoo.com/u-house-passes-estate-tax-repeal-despite-veto-165802083--business.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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