Lord Damian Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Sansa will not be a real "player" until she ditches Littlefinger completely or he abandons her and goes on the lamb. Until they seperate, she is his defacto pawn. No matter how "empowered" she feels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tharvot Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Because Sansa hasn't read Brienne's chapters, and has no idea that Shadrich is a mercenary previously engaged in hunting for her. Not implying she should know, just that she's always the character that finds herself in dangerous situations. From the released chapter, it's pretty clear she is still that person at least in the early parts of the book. In other words, she is still a pawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the conquering bastard 25 Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 All the Stark children have very different personnalities and skillsets. All are however still very young children remember the oldest at the beginning are 14. And it is said several times that they are children of Summer which seems to imply that they grew up in an easier time and thus matured less than other children born during Winter. Jon is a military leader, he can lead and inspire his troops. Remember that in his very last chapter the Steward says "sorry" while crying even as he plants the knife in his back. All the men of the NW have come to grant Jon a degree of respect I think except for Ser Aliser Thorne but he's a bitter and stubborn old knight who's been humiliated by Jon for good reasons so... Jon is certainly the most mature of all the Stark children though it can be argued that he he still very immature in some respects. Robb was similar to Jon in that respect. They just didn't play in the same circles. But Robb had a definitely different personality compared to Jon due to his different background. Robb assumes he deserves to be obeyed while Jon has a hard time believing he can lead (though in practice he leads to the end). They are both honorable and follow the Old Ways. Sansa IS clever from the start but intelligence isn't a simple concept. It can be divided in many sub families and all of us have different proficiencies for each. Sansa is socially clever and has an excellent memory. She's studied the workings of "noble and proper" society from a very young age. As a captive she is still very naîve due to her sheltered background and thus tends to take everything at face value. But when people approach her she displays her understanding of society everytime, she just cannot imagine yet that the beautiful Cersei is a very cruel and bitter woman, that handsome Jeoffrey is a monster or that ugly little Tyrion is a compasionnate man. As a bastard under Littlefinger's tutelage after her "awakening" in captivity, she is know learning that this knowledge can be useful for more than not behaving shamefully in front of guests of some note. She is learning to scheme and to discern the schemes of others and I have no doubts that the most important scheme she is about to discover is Littlefinger's including his part in her father's demise. Aria doesn't understand society as Sansa does but she is an accute judge of character. She can tell who to trust and who to distrust and how far she can trust people better than any of the others. We've all seen she's headed on a rather dark path and unfortunately I don't see her getting out of it anytime soon. Aria isn't a schemer like Sansa, she's adept at deception because she understands people not society. She's a master manipulator. Rickon is completely out, we have barely seen him so far except to see a possible foreshadowing that he has the Wolf's blood of the Starks which means he's quite wild tempered. And he is just too young to have the beggining of a fully formed personnality. Bran... is no leader, nor is he a schemer or a manipulator. Bran seems set to be the wise guy of the lot. So far he's mostly been a child but is becoming a Greenseer will change him forever. With access to millenia of knowledge Bran is sure to mature at a lightning quick pace, if he doesn't go mad that is. However it is still too soon to tell exactly what his new personnality will be like and neither do we know the full extent of a Greenseer's abilities. Thay all have different kinds of intelligence and they are all young and inexperienced leading to everything we've seen so far. Wisdom, Social intelligence, Insight, or tactics and leadership all have their specific kind of cleverness. At some point "Eddard Stark makes an analogy about wolves staying together and watching each other's back in Winter" and it seems indeed that if they were all together they would fare much better not only because they would be more numerous but because they all have complementary personalities and skillsets.Which is why they have been kept apart.If they had been togeth4 the fate of House stark would have been much different.If the in fighting between the different personalities didn't tear them apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpoke Martin Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 And? She took considerable risk and made choices to meet with Dontos, including whether to accept his help or not. rofl now you're just trolling. IF she stayed, she would then be blamed for Joffery's death along with her husband Tyrion. Basically what you just said is incredibly moronic. Sansa would be accused of murder regardless if she stayed or left (which is exactly what happened so maybe you should use that brain or yours), at least by leaving she now is far away from crazy Cersei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talking Hodor Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Could you explain how refusing to kill a 13 year resulted in him getting decapitated It resulted in him getting into a brawl with the Kingslayer and taking a sword in the leg, stressed King Robert out enough to necessitate him going on his fateful hunting expedition, and you know the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 IF she stayed, she would then be blamed for Joffery's death along with her husband Tyrion. She didn't know about that, so that's irrelevant to her choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Winter Rose Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 She didn't know about that, so that's irrelevant to her choices. Do you think she planned to have a tea party with Cersei like nothing happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Do you think she planned to have a tea party with Cersei like nothing happened? She didn't know there was going to be an assassination when she decided to work with Dontos. So she wasn't "planning" anything for that contingency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor the Articulate Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I never thought Sansa was dolt, nor LF 2.0, so the new chapter didn't change my opinion at all. She's certainly more suspicious than she used to be, and bit more purposely manipulative (or trying, at least), so she has come along way. I don't see any hints that she's planning to out-Littlefinger Littlefinger, right now, though. Actually, I don't see her planning anything, atm. The Winged Knights idea was clever, but (and I might have mis-read) it seems like Sansa originally thought of it to cheer up SR, and it was LF that realised its political value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Ida Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 We get Alayne POV when she has a very busy day, ( like when we have a party) and she has her mind on things in the present. But she has had a few weeks since we last saw her and sure there must have been some lonly days and night wish she has no time to think about on this day. I think Alayne pick up all those little informations, like HtH, Lyn C, Mad Mouse and LF but she wrap them up for now but later on a lonly night Sansa unwrap those pieces and try to fit them in the pussle her life is now.She has a few bits but she needs more. So she must be patient and wait for the missing pussle and in this time it is best for her to be Alayne the happy daughter of Lord Protector. PS: I do not speak English so please be kind if I word this wrong J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhispererInDarkness Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 I believe she is intelligent but still dangerously naive. Regardless of everything she has been through, she is still looking to please someone or make someone like her so that everything can be made all better for her. I hold out hope that at some point she takes control over her own life and maybe even holds some strings herself one day. Wishful thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysfirstofhisname Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 She's certainly not stupid, but I will be quite disappointed if George turns her into a cliche of the student surpassing the master (Littlefinger). I accept her becoming skilled at the game, but I would consider it to be a stretch for her to develop into a genius manipulator. Regardless, it looks like the latter is the direction we are headed; Sansa will be as intelligent as the author decides her to be. Her increasingly bold and witty interactions of late seem a bit forced to me (by George). The 5 year gap would have done a world of good for her development, which has already been mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Pounce FTW Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 I never thought Sansa was dolt, nor LF 2.0, so the new chapter didn't change my opinion at all. She's certainly more suspicious than she used to be, and bit more purposely manipulative (or trying, at least), so she has come along way. I don't see any hints that she's planning to out-Littlefinger Littlefinger, right now, though. Actually, I don't see her planning anything, atm. The Winged Knights idea was clever, but (and I might have mis-read) it seems like Sansa originally thought of it to cheer up SR, and it was LF that realised its political value. Well stated! I agree completely. It shows progress but not nearly the progress some had hoped for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
123456750 Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 And what if Sansa's main target is Robert. She is manipulating Robert quite successfully, which is an invaluabe asset. If Robert comes of age, Sansa will have more power over Vale than Littlefinger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laura898 Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 I never thought Sansa was dolt, nor LF 2.0, so the new chapter didn't change my opinion at all. She's certainly more suspicious than she used to be, and bit more purposely manipulative (or trying, at least), so she has come along way. I don't see any hints that she's planning to out-Littlefinger Littlefinger, right now, though. Actually, I don't see her planning anything, atm. The Winged Knights idea was clever, but (and I might have mis-read) it seems like Sansa originally thought of it to cheer up SR, and it was LF that realised its political value. Interesting, I read it as it being a way to kill SR and not have everyone blame LF because they saw it (like a Joffery type posioning at an event). And I assume that this is why the chapter is considered controversial, because Sansa is planning a murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Interesting, I read it as it being a way to kill SR and not have everyone blame LF because they saw it (like a Joffery type posioning at an event). And I assume that this is why the chapter is considered controversial, because Sansa is planning a murder. No, Sansa is pretty clearly not planning a murder, because she's still hopeful that Robert lives to become an adult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Damian Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 No, Sansa is pretty clearly not planning a murder, because she's still hopeful that Robert lives to become an adult. Agreed. Sansa would not murder her own first cousin. That is kinslaying and that of a child to boot. No, however I could see Littlefinger duping her into a contributory factor to use the guilt into gaining further control over Sansa. That is how he rolls. Would it not be interesting if he framed Harry the heir for it though? The one with the most motive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tharvot Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 And what if Sansa's main target is Robert. She is manipulating Robert quite successfully, which is an invaluabe asset. If Robert comes of age, Sansa will have more power over Vale than Littlefinger. Unless she can raise him from the dead, all that manipulation potential will be for naught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourneblade Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 It resulted in him getting into a brawl with the Kingslayer and taking a sword in the leg, stressed King Robert out enough to necessitate him going on his fateful hunting expedition, and you know the rest. He broke his leg... TV/Book blur there lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourneblade Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 All the Stark children are intelligent...There difference is what they are ignorant to during a given time or situation. All of them, just like everyone else in the book, make mistakes....It is the beauty of GRRM's writing that everyone has flaws. Jon is the most well rounded of group. Sansa is learning rather quickly on how to be a player. Will she still make mistakes... no doubt about it, Littlefinger still does. Arya is also a quick learner, but she also has a wildling heart, she has zero respect for authority and freely breaks rules like many children her age. Robb suffered from the same flaw as his father Bran is also a wildling at heart. Rickon is probably the wildest of the bunch. As to the topic question it is the wrong question... it should be more about her education as opposed to intelligence... all intelligence is is our ability to understand something, and how quickly we can....even then it is dependent on our predisposition to certain areas of study....Sansa has troubles with finance, but excels at remembering houses, and is lately quick to pick up on social issues and treachery and manipulation.... IMHO she is showing more understanding about the game, but is still not quite there yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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