Should Ned have let Jon go to the Wall?

[Northbound3.0]

Ned could have given him some land, maybe one of those lordships on the Gift.

I think this would have been Ned's intent. But Jon Arryn's death and Ned riding south, changed that landscape.

[Winterfell's Revenge]

That's my deal-Ned knows what's going down and doesn't do a thing to stop Jon from joining an order not remotely close to what he imagined.

Yeah, I don't think that was exactly fair of Ned. And I can't understand why he wouldn't tell him the truth about the NW.

[Winterfell's Revenge]

How is the watch ever going to get better if there are not good men there to improve it? Ned let Jon go to the wall because it was not his place to refuse Jon. Jon was old enough to make his own decisions and to the Starks, life in service to the realm is a honorable way to live.

If he is old enough to make his own decisions, he also should have be given ALL the pertinent information to make an informed decision from the start. Who knows if his choice would have been different. Honestly, I kinda hate that he sacrificed his life like that.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Jon joining the Wall is Ned treating him like he's actually his son. Benjen joined the Wall. Do people see it as a punishment or a banishment? Benjen is, legally, more legitimate and with more claims than Jon could ever have, yet, he chose to join the Watch willingly. No one sees it as a bad thing. We shouldn't see it as a bed thing either. It's something many Northern do as any kid here would join the army or priesthood. It might shock us at first, but it's their own decision after all.

The thing with Jon is that we see him as the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar and we believe that will be important (because it will likely be), but for Ned, it was never going to be a relevant thing. He even mentioned he barely thought of Rhaegar Targaryen, which means he never really saw him as Jon's father or considered his parentage would be a important thing in his life. He saw Jon as either his son or his sister's son that he had to take care of, not as a Prince-to-be, as we do. So, he gave him the life he could have given to a real bastard of his, and this included to allow him to take his own decisions.

[HouseHarrison]

It was the best a Bastard could hope for, and Ned saw the Watch as honorable. It was the only place his birth would mean nothing.

[Robb-TheYoungWolf]

The only issues I have with Jon joining the watch is A) the watch has been way over romanticized in Jon's mind and he should have been told the truth about what it was and B )he wasn't told who his parents were. Both those pieces of information would have drastically affected Jon's decision to join the watch. Also, I think for his own protection he should know his heritage.

I don't mind his age as most new recruits seem quite young and at 15 males are considered adults in Westeros.

Honestly though, there was really nowhere else for him. He couldn't stay at Winterfell since Cat wouldn't allow it and given his parentage it would be risky to take him to Kings Landing. Yes, Robert probably wouldn't have noticed but I wonder how long it would take Varys or Littlefinger to find out. Ned (who sucks at the game of thrones) found out Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen's parentage in a couple months. Aemon is one thing but the love child of Rhaegar and Lyanna? Potentially Rhaegar's lawful heir? Robert would have killed him in a second. Better safe than sorry.

I guess you could have him fostered at another Northern house but that might be seen as an insult.

All in all I think Ned made the right choice for once.

[Ser Greenseer]

If he is old enough to make his own decisions, he also should have be given ALL the pertinent information to make an informed decision from the start. Who knows if his choice would have been different. Honestly, I kinda hate that he sacrificed his life like that.

And he got all that information before he said his vows. He could have left once he realized it was not what he expected.

[RobOsevens]

Jon joining the Wall is Ned treating him like he's actually his son. Benjen joined the Wall. Do people see it as a punishment or a banishment? Benjen is, legally, more legitimate and with more claims than Jon could ever have, yet, he chose to join the Watch willingly. No one sees it as a bad thing. We shouldn't see it as a bed thing either. It's something many Northern do as any kid here would join the army or priesthood. It might shock us at first, but it's their own decision after all.

The thing with Jon is that we see him as the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar and we believe that will be important (because it will likely be), but for Ned, it was never going to be a relevant thing. He even mentioned he barely thought of Rhaegar Targaryen, which means he never really saw him as Jon's father or considered his parentage would be a important thing in his life. He saw Jon as either his son or his sister's son that he had to take care of, not as a Prince-to-be, as we do. So, he gave him the life he could have given to a real bastard of his, and this included to allow him to take his own decisions.

100% agree

[Luddagain]

This is medieval Europe we a re talking about. Lots of boys were promised to the celibate priesthood and had little choice in the matter.

For Ned and for many of the First men families sending younger sons to the wall was a noble act - young 18 year old Wymar Royce and Benjen etc it was fading for sure , but still was a proud act in the North. Jeor Mormant VOLUNTEERED.

The main issue for Jon was his age - 14 was very young. Ned would have preferred he wait until 18 ore so. I think Ned knew his life was in peril when he went South. He dared not take Jon to the South - Robert and his bastard status were problems. He could not safely leave him with Catelyn. However sending him as a squire to the Manderlys or perhaps to Bronze Yoren was possible, so I am surprised that did not happen. However perhaps part of Lyanna's promise was "keep him in the North" that is his destiny.

[Mal Malenkirk]

This is medieval Europe we a re talking about. Lots of boys were promised to the celibate priesthood and had little choice in the matter.

Except joining the clergy for a son with no prospect of inheritance was a great life path, with possibilities of advancement. And in those days, it wasn't that celibate. Plenty of ranking clergymen supported a mistress and bastard children. Heck, many popes did it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sexually_active_popes

If I have to choose between the wall and the clergy, I chose the medieval clergy without hesitation. And I'm an atheist! Similarly, if I was a medieval father with a bastard son, I'd be happy with my son joining the clergy. Not only is it a good and comfortable life, he could rise to a position of power and help his family in turn!

[Mal Malenkirk]

Jon joining the Wall is Ned treating him like he's actually his son. Benjen joined the Wall. Do people see it as a punishment or a banishment? Benjen is, legally, more legitimate and with more claims than Jon could ever have, yet, he chose to join the Watch willingly. No one sees it as a bad thing.

How people see an institution through their cultural bias and how something really is are two different things. The Wall is still a shitty life, no matter how a few old school families see it as a great honor (while the rest of the kingdom does not, mind you). I'm sure in Germany during the 30s many parents were proud to send their sons in the Hitlerjugend (Hitler's Youth organization) but that was still a shitty place.

We know as readers that the Watch likely have some role to play in saving the world but even Ned did not really believe that (he told to Bran the Others were a myth...). From all objective perspective, joining the watch is wasting away in ruined keeps surrounded by convicted criminals. It's all the pleasurable company of residing at San Quentin Prison without the benefit of the nice weather. Yeah, I wouldn't send my son there, I'd send my enemies. Which, as a matter of fact, is exactly the understanding that most of Westeros noble families have of the place!

[Sullen]

Why should he not let Jon go to the Wall would be the better question.

It gives his life purpose, gets him away from Catelyn and thus eases her mood, nulls Jon's claim on the Throne, reinforces to Wall (and gives Benjen family to hang out with), and, as Jon is highborn, promises advancement and prestige.

Sending Jon to the Wall is the best thing that could have happened to Ned on that front, and is pretty damn good for Jon as well.

[John Doe]

It was the best way to ensure both his best friend and his nephew would be save.

[Fanless Mace]

I don't get why Ned wouldn't think the Wall is a great idea for Jon. Look, WE all figured out that R+L math, I'm sure Ned lived in fear that Jon's identity would be discovered and the boy assassinated. And we don't know the exact nature of Ned's promise to Lyanna, maybe the promise included terms that make the Wall a best possible solution.

Also, in Ned's mind, pledging life to the KW was certainly a safe harbor, as proven by the history of other would-be rulers heading that way and living long lives (Aemon for example). The very first time we meet Ned he's emphasizing the honor and duty of the KW by executing a supposed AWOL traitor. There may be no higher honor in Ned's eyes than the KW. And no better way to ensure a boy stays put and out of trouble and ALIVE for as long as possible...and never serve on a throne nor be put to death for fear he might. Which may be exactly what Ned promised his sissy.

[NorthGirl]

Agree with what everyone else has said:

It was Jon's choice, Ned didn't force him. He raised his children + foster children (Theon + Jon) to make their own choices and do what they thought best for them: raising Robb to be a lord, Theon to an extent, too; arming all of his sons to be good fighters to give them the best chance of getting a place in a household guard/lord/lead an army/whatever military career they choose; taking Sansa to KL and all the "ladylike" things she's meant to do; letting Arya learn to fight despite it not being "ladylike". Ned raised them all to be independent and choose their own lot in life.

Safe place for Jon if Robert ever did find out about his parents - the Watch takes no part.

The Watch is a place where Jon could rise up through the ranks and earn a true place without ever having to worry about being a bastard, or ever being prejudiced or discounted because of his supposed parentage (in theory, at least). He would likely never hold lands in the North anyway because he's baseborn, but in the Watch he'd do well.

Benjen was (meant to be) there to watch over him if he ever got himself into trouble.

It's not like Jon didn't know what the Watch was like - he was warned by Ned/Tyrion/Benjen, it's not like he was rushed into an uneducated decision.

Agreed with everything but this. Jon didn't know. He thought that Night's Watch was an order of equivalents to knights and squire who volunteered to go there for the honour of defending the Realm. Not the same as, where the convicts and the rejects go because no one wants them around. Oh, and also? Most of them can't fight their way out of a paper bag and have negative moral standards. He should've been ùade aware of what he was truly signing up for.

I think it's deals as a huge blow to the idea that Jon was Rhaegars heir. No way a guy just lets an unknowing king go to the wall. That's just sick

No, NED woulda pressed his claim.

Does Ned ever come across to you as someone who wants power? Why would Ned want Jon to claim the throne, all it brought both sides of Jon's family was death and destruction.

Honestly, it's the best place for Jon. The bastard son of Ned Stark and "presumably" Ashara Dayne would have a great place in the Watch. I think that was his long term plan from the start.

Well, he could've been given a land and a keep, he could've become a master at arms, he could've been sent to the Free Cities... Lots of options that don't involve the shit Jon had to deal with when at the Wall. Also, his bastard status was not overlooked even there so...

Considering how vital Jon was to the wall, Yes. Yes I would. Also, at the wall he is untouchable. He provided for him, had brothers and a sister that loved him. People cared for him, not Catelyn to be sure but that is just one in a sea of people. If Lyanna DID extract that promise form Ned, it was to raise him and protect him.

Well, in the world of Asoiaf, when you reach 12-13, you are consider an adult. Marriage and stuff start to be bandied about, and you start to choose your own path. Jon was living obliviously as a bastard to be sure, until he's 15, at that time, in that world, it was time for him to fly the nest. He could do whatever he want, had he wanted to be one of Robb banner man, I am sure Ned and Robb would have okayed it. But Jon choose for himself the wall. So, he'd fullfilled his sister instruction and now Jon have chosen the wall for himself.

In this instance, R+L= Jon does not really factor in. Bran wanted to join the Kingsguard, who also take similar vows the Nightwatch. Catelyn and Ned encourages that too and see nothing wrong with it. So Jon Joining the Night Watch, is a good idea.

Think of it this way, Arya is sent to KL to get a good match, she was 9. Sansa was already given away at eleven. Jon hanging around is pretty much wearing out his welcome by not doing anything useful. What should Ed have done? Cuddle him all the way through his life? Bran he he still had his legs and Rickonw ould have been foster out anyway, then married into minor houses.

The question isn't how much Jon did for the Wall but how much did the Wall do for Jon. I would argue that not knifed in the back after dealing with Stannis' crazy, Ramsay's crazy and the brothers' moodiness would've been a better alternative. Also, people are considered actual adults at 16, not 12. Yes, they are not seen as children at 14 but not as fully grown either. People have this perception because of the marriage ages but remember, Westeros doesn't care about consent in a marriage, they care about the outcome: heirs. So as early as they believe an alliance can create children and cement whatever bond the linked houses now share, the better.

Okay Ned was in a pretty tight spot he's got Cat up his ass about Jon then Robert is a shell of his former self or at least that's how he's percieved at at first and up his ass too so Jon joining the NW was probably a huge relief. However personally hell no I wouldn't have let Jon go to fucking NW to most likely die a virgin freezing his unused balls off. BS aside id try to talk him out of it if he still wanted to go well then I'd let him make his own decision.

:lmao: That should be their slogan.

If a woman hooks up with man in a moment of passion and she becomes pregnant, she is a tramp? Are women not allowed to go around and fuck people, that's only reserved for us, men? The lie that Ned told, or better yet....the lie that he let other people tell was that, Jon's mother was a Fisherman's daughter; so you can't even use the word "whore" either.

As for your question. Other than possibly being sent to a Bannerman to live, Jon had few options. Even if Jon is true born, the Targ regime is over and Ned did not intend to restore them. He couldn't go to KL, for several reasons stated above and staying at WF was not an option.

:grouphug:

How is the watch ever going to get better if there are not good men there to improve it? Ned let Jon go to the wall because it was not his place to refuse Jon. Jon was old enough to make his own decisions and to the Starks, life in service to the realm is a honorable way to live.

Like I said above, if we're considering what Ned knew at the time, was this move the best thing for Jon? Life in service of the Realm is good, but as we've seen at the Wall sometimes they have their own little politics going on. If this was during a less interesting time, all they would be doing is send rangers out and stand guard, doing little to nothing.

My thing is this:

I don't think sending him away is bad because of who his parents were. The lost prince angle doesn't matter to me and I don't even see him as king. I don't like it because this poor kid who is so effing thirsty for recognition and achievements thinks that he will get to be a hero if he goes there but no one tells him "Hey...You might be fighting with rapists, murderers and 6 year old children who have never touched even a wooden sword. Is that cool? You fine with spending your potentially long life there?"

Also, prospects or not, the Wall is a miserable place on the best of days. There's no going around that. Even if it was honourable, there was nowhere else to get honour? It had to be on a frozen land with the prospect of days ranging from downright shitty to miserable for the foreseeable future? That gets to me for some reason. KL and WF are not the only places in the world, I am sure he could've thought up of places to send Jon to.

I do give him a break though because he was probably worried that if, for example, Jon is wandering around and someone starts getting ideas or someone starts Jon down a path to find out about his mum... Not good. I think to Ned, for Jon; anonymity=safety. The less people think about Jon's existence, the better. The Wall literally says "you will get no recognition whatsoever, hell, you are no longer really part of your House anymore. Your Lord is the LC and your arms are those of the Watch" so to Ned, that's as safe as safe can be. Also, he couldn't know that there would be this asshole trying to ruin Jon's life, Wildlings getting more and more adventurous or that the White Walkers are real... For most sons not able to inherit, the Watch is the place to be.

So basically, I think it was not ideal but I get why he did it with the info he had at the time.

[Poorboy78]

The question isn't how much Jon did for the Wall but how much did the Wall do for Jon. I would argue that not knifed in the back after dealing with Stannis' crazy, Ramsay's crazy and the brothers' moodiness would've been a better alternative. Also, people are considered actual adults at 16, not 12. Yes, they are not seen as children at 14 but not as fully grown either. People have this perception because of the marriage ages but remember, Westeros doesn't care about consent in a marriage, they care about the outcome: heirs. So as early as they believe an alliance can create children and cement whatever bond the linked houses now share, the better.

The wall gave him a dose of reality instead of the romantisicm that Ned have about honor and duty. Jon found out that not all is sunshine and rainbow, He even broke his view and travelw ith wildings and if you look at it, betrayed both sides. They provided him with comrades and he got a fucking Valyarian Steel Blade. Jon would have never touched Ice.

[The Wolves]

The wall gave him a dose of reality instead of the romantisicm that Ned have about honor and duty. Jon found out that not all is sunshine and rainbow, He even broke his view and travelw ith wildings and if you look at it, betrayed both sides. They provided him with comrades and he got a fucking Valyarian Steel Blade. Jon would have never touched Ice.

To the bolded Jon have handled Ice a lot of times FYI.

[TimJames]

The nights watch is still considered a prestigious institution in The North. The only place a bastard could really rise.

Secondly, Eddard never had any intention whatsoever of pressing Jon Snow' claim on the iron throne.

[Poorboy78]

To the bolded Jon have handled Ice a lot of times FYI.

Like Owned it, truly.

[The Frosted King]

No.

Ned Stark is one of my favorite characters, but he was a neglectful lord in various respects.

If i had the north, the main goal for me would've been strengthening its economy. Period.

Get the economy stronger, more people come for opportunity, the north is stronger now.

It's littered with abandoned holdfasts, etc.

Have Bran, Rickon and Jon establish households in these old keeps. Establish greater ties with the Wall, and find out just whats on the other side of it, and how can it be used.

Establish a power on the western coastline. Northwest and southwest.

Bring mammoths and giants south of the wall. Charge a toll at the Wolfswood to come see them.

Bring willing wildlings south to help with their treatment, in exchange for a better life. Establish better trade with Braavos.

Under my hand, the north would've seen development like never before. The various lords would be wealthier, so more comfort.

There'd be plenty of room for advancement for second sons and bastards.

I also would've turned down Roberts request.