Hightower was able to find Rhaegar. How? Implications?

[bent branch]

Yeah, trouble is, there seems to be no communications or any explainations by Rheagar after trying to negotiate or defuse the situation.

I think this is a very important point. If Rhaegar was actively plotting against his father, then he chose a very odd path. Becoming inaccessible to your co-conspirators is not a wise move. I know there are forumers who think Rhaegar is a total idiot, but I trust the people in the story opinions more. And the Rhaegar they knew wouldn't have been that incompetent.

[three-eyed monkey]

Great analysys, but the problem with 2 and Hightower remaining at ToJ is that then the question remains: who told Ned? He ended the siege of Storm's End in the battle at Summerhall, after the sack of KL and then went looking for Joana at the ToJ in Dorne. That's a long way off, and without someone telling you, Ned would never have even gone there.

It also seems logical that Hightower would have first gone looking for any clue of Rhaegar in the area of Summerhall, where Rhaegar often went on his own. So, I think we may need to look for someone who was in the army laying siege of Storm's End. Another option might be someone who remained in the area of Summerhall and involved in the prophecy of the Prince that is Promised... The Ghost of High Heart comes to mind here. We know she ends up in the Riverlands, but was also once in Summerhall. How long she remained there is not known.

Yeah, I had considered that Summerhall might be the first place Hightower would look for Rhaegar, assuming he didn't know where the Prince was, but I never really connected up the GoHH. Definitely possible.

On the Ned question, I would rule out Varys or indeed anyone in KL having told him on the basis that Ned told the KG that he expected to find them at Storm's End. The question is what did Ned do next? Did someone at SE tell him about the ToJ? Although there was a lot of Targ loyalists there, none really stand out as close confidants to Rhaegar. It might be that the next logical step for Ned would be Starfall and then Oldtown, considering Dayne and Hightower were still unaccounted. I'm not sure what sort of timeline we're talking about between Ned lifting the siege and going to the ToJ. Enough time for a chat with Ashara Dayne at Starfall perhaps? And of course one other possibility is the Howland Reed factor? Or if Ned found a weirwood to pray for his sister then maybe Bloodraven came into play, although that's stretching it pretty thin.

[sweetsunray]

Hightower is feeling guilty after RHaegar death over their dishonorable action. Sents a raven to Ned, tells him he has three Kingsguard with him. Tell him if he want to bring her back, it would be over their dead body.

KG want an honorable death, Ned comes and gives them one. Hightower might have also been the one that told Lyanna that he sent a raven for her brother so that he could kill him. Lyanna might have been afraid for Ned Life and call for Ned to maybe run away. So when he engaged the Kingsguard, Lyanna is creaming Ned name and the Kingsguard are given their honorable death.

:bang: That makes no sense at all. Sending a raven to the brother to inform him where his sister is without any more information and then fighting the said brother to the death. ANd of course, you do know that ravens can't be sent to just anywhere, right? They are trained to fly back to their home (like pigeons). You can release them from anywhere you want, but they will fly back to only one place, home. On top of that Hightower doesn't even know where Ned is. Summerhall is a ruin: no ravens can't be sent there. Ned didn't go to Summerhall first to lift the siege, then back to KL or WF to get a raven's message there either. And I don't see Hightower carrying with him a cartload full of ravens belonging to every region's capital. So, the only possibility would have been Hightower sending a raven to KL, but then that message would have been given to Robert for sure, who would have come riding straight for the ToJ himself with a whole army; nor would have Ned tarried his mission to release Lyanna by first lifting the siege of Storm's End at Summerhall. When you need a whole book to rewrite character motivations who never even have a POV and can't be known by the other person there (and only HR remains to tell of it) to explain something as simple as finding out where to go, and not even fits the logistical means, then the likelihood of that hypothesis is nill.

When we regard Ned's actions right after the sack of KL and the murder of Elia and her children, which Robert does not condemn Tywin for, Ned did not know Lyanna's whereabouts when he left KL. His mission was to lift the siege at Storm's End. He did that with the battle at Summerhall. From Summerhall he left for the ToJ, which lies far away in a not well known pass. So he found out about Lyanna's whereabouts in the area of Summerhall.

[sweetsunray]

Yeah, I had considered that Summerhall might be the first place Hightower would look for Rhaegar, assuming he didn't know where the Prince was, but I never really connected up the GoHH. Definitely possible.

On the Ned question, I would rule out Varys or indeed anyone in KL having told him on the basis that Ned told the KG that he expected to find them at Storm's End. The question is what did Ned do next? Did someone at SE tell him about the ToJ? Although there was a lot of Targ loyalists there, none really stand out as close confidants to Rhaegar. It might be that the next logical step for Ned would be Starfall and then Oldtown, considering Dayne and Hightower were still unaccounted. I'm not sure what sort of timeline we're talking about between Ned lifting the siege and going to the ToJ. Enough time for a chat with Ashara Dayne at Starfall perhaps? And of course one other possibility is the Howland Reed factor? Or if Ned found a weirwood to pray for his sister then maybe Bloodraven came into play, although that's stretching it pretty thin.

It's when I researched Ned's movements again after the KL for this thread and ended with the battle for Summerhall to lift the siege of SE, I wikied Summerhall. It had a quote from the GoHH and then it struck me she was the ideal person to have been in contact with a) Rhaegar b ) Hightower c) Ned. Most simple answer, purely based on location and the link to the prophecy, and her ability to see past and future, and therefore able to choose to give information on the one hand, but leave out other information on the other hand: why Rhaegar chose the ToJ as a perfect hiding place, why Hightower could ride straight from Summerhall to the ToJ, and why Ned would even consider riding for Dorne (a country he doesn't know and never has been) to some obscure pass without any escort from Starfall or Oldtown and not losing any time.

Sure, he could have ridden to Starfall to chat with Ashara, but why would Ashara know where her brother is? KG-business is not her business. Doesn't seem likely that Arthur woudl have told Ashara about it, because it's not his secret to tell. It's Rhaegar's.

[Gerg Sknab]

What do you mean by Their eldest Meera? Are you saing that Meera Reed is R&L's child?

Yes

When Rhaegar was summoned to lead the Royalists at the Trident by all rights and means he should have been accompanied by Hightower, Dayne and Whent....however they stayed behind to guard ToJ...Why all three? I suggest not just because Lyanna was pregnant but also because there was an heir (Meera) born on her already...

[The_lost_arryn19]

This is something that by now we really should know more about. The problem with this too is that the only way we will learn more about what happened here is from vision of some kind or brand weirnet. Grrm really should have just told us more about it when at least some of the people involved were still alive.

What we do know is that some of the kg knights actually aided rheagar in his kidnapping. What we could assume is that Hightower was one of the knights with him and indeed went back to KL and when it was needed went to go fetch rheagar for the battle. What we don't know is why 3 of the best knights of the realm stayed at the TOJ. We can only assume it was because they needed to guard a new heir.

[bent branch]

Yeah, I had considered that Summerhall might be the first place Hightower would look for Rhaegar, assuming he didn't know where the Prince was, but I never really connected up the GoHH. Definitely possible.

On the Ned question, I would rule out Varys or indeed anyone in KL having told him on the basis that Ned told the KG that he expected to find them at Storm's End. The question is what did Ned do next? Did someone at SE tell him about the ToJ? Although there was a lot of Targ loyalists there, none really stand out as close confidants to Rhaegar. It might be that the next logical step for Ned would be Starfall and then Oldtown, considering Dayne and Hightower were still unaccounted. I'm not sure what sort of timeline we're talking about between Ned lifting the siege and going to the ToJ. Enough time for a chat with Ashara Dayne at Starfall perhaps? And of course one other possibility is the Howland Reed factor? Or if Ned found a weirwood to pray for his sister then maybe Bloodraven came into play, although that's stretching it pretty thin.

Actually, you can't rule out Varys or someone in KL telling Ned where Lyanna is because of his statement that expected to see them at SE since he also expected them to be with Viserys. The whole point of that recitation of all the places Ned expected to see them was to emphasize that he didn't expect them to be with Lyanna. So the fact that Ned didn't expect them to be with Lyanna tells us something, but that something is nothing about where Ned learned of Lyanna's location.

[sweetsunray]

Actually, you can't rule out Varys or someone in KL telling Ned where Lyanna is because of his statement that expected to see them at SE since he also expected them to be with Viserys. The whole point of that recitation of all the places Ned expected to see them was to emphasize that he didn't expect them to be with Lyanna. So the fact that Ned didn't expect them to be with Lyanna tells us something, but that something is nothing about where Ned learned of Lyanna's location.

People confuse the siege of SE and SE's location with the location of Viserys. Stannis was under siege in SE by the Tyrell's. Viserys was with his mother in Dragonstone. Ned lifted the almost yearlong siege of Storm's End, liberating Stannis. Of course the KG wouldn't be there. Stannis is ordered to besiege Dragonstone, where Viserys is (and since Rhaegar and Aerys and Rhagar's children are death, supposedly Viserys is the Targ heir). Ned goes to Dorne and free his sister and is surprised to see the KG whom he expects to protect the Targ heir, Viserys in Dragonstone.

Nobody would have told Ned that the KG would be at SE, because it would make even less sense for them to be there. The Tyrell's are not Targ heirs to the IT, nor is Stannis in SE. Nobody needs to tell Ned that the KG would be at Dragonstone, because it's logical they would be there with Viserys as Viserys presumably is the sole surviving Targ by then.

[WolfgangII]

As to the first bolded point, you are right that we don't know if they went there straight after Harrenhall, but we do know that Rhaegar went to the ToJ. He named the tower, and why would he name a tower he's never been to?And, what's more than that, why would he name a tower he's never been to the Tower of Joy? It's clear that he named it such because that is the place that he and Lyanna consummated their love.

As to the second bolded point, it isn't known how LC Hightower knew where to find Rhaegar and Lyanna, (perhaps Varys, a known master at playing the game and playing both sides had some knowledge), but it is known that he did not return to the war after finding Rhaegar, therefore he was not in KL during the sack. From that piece of evidence, we can safely assume that he remained at the tower with the other two KG and a pregnant Lyanna. So it's highly unlikely that any of the other KG in KL knew about the ToJ.

And no, we don't know that Rhaegar could get news from KL. If he had been receiving news this entire time and not acting upon it, why would he suddenly change his mind with the appearance of Hightower? From this piece of evidence, we can safely assume that Rhaegar did not have knowledge of all the goings on, and the appearance of Hightower likely brought him his first news, thus prompting him to leave and deal with Robert.

Those are not assumptions. Those are inferences drawn from evidence presented by the text.

You are right, it's very likely Rhaegar was, at some point, at the ToJ and is likely that Hightower stayed there after fetching Rhaegar. I agree with the bolded part, and is very likely he didn't recieve any until Hightower come to him. So, we can presume (given Rhaegar's character) that if he didn't receive news because nobady was informing him. And why does nobody tried to inform him of the events after Harrenhall? Maybe because he was Aerys' priosioner (along with Lyanna).

The tragic tale will be that, with the progress of Robert's Rebellion, Aerys fetch for Rhaegar to stop him. Rhagear, knowing the danger upon his family, faced Robert at the Trident with the hope of end things there and "make some changes" as Jaime recalls. (Did he try to bargain with Robert, or Jon or Ned, who knows?).

Why did the KGs remain at the ToJ? Aerys' orders. And after Aerys and Aegon's death, they remain with Rhaegar's only living son and heir: Jon. (Assuming R+L=J is true and that J is not a bastard).

Thank you Grayce Hornwood, for helping me on my new theory.

[Alaynsa Starne]

You are right, it's very likely Rhaegar was, at some point, at the ToJ and is likely that Hightower stayed there after fetching Rhaegar. I agree with the bolded part, and is very likely he didn't recieve any until Hightower come to him. So, we can presume (given Rhaegar's character) that if he didn't receive news because nobady was informing him. And why does nobody tried to inform him of the events after Harrenhall? Maybe because he was Aerys' priosioner (along with Lyanna).

The tragic tale will be that, with the progress of Robert's Rebellion, Aerys fetch for Rhaegar to stop him. Rhagear, knowing the danger upon his family, faced Robert at the Trident with the hope of end things there and "make some changes" as Jaime recalls. (Did he try to bargain with Robert, or Jon or Ned, who knows?).

Why did the KGs remain at the ToJ? Aerys' orders. And after Aerys and Aegon's death, they remain with Rhaegar's only living son and heir: Jon. (Assuming R+L=J is true and that J is not a bastard).

Thank you Grayce Hornwood, for helping me on my new theory.

The idea of Rhaegar being prisoner along with Lyanna actually makes some sense. I have been flirting with the idea that Aerys somehow forced Rhaegar to arrest Lyanna, either to break down the formulating marriage alliances or because he found out that she was the KOTLT. But Rhaegar also being a prisoner makes some sense as well. The only problem I have with this is that why would Aerys send Arthur Dayne, who was Rhaegar's best friend, to be one of his prison guards? Aerys must have had something on Rhaegar. Maybe he had been threatening Elia and the kids the whole time?

[WolfgangII]

The idea of Rhaegar being prisoner along with Lyanna actually makes some sense. I have been flirting with the idea that Aerys somehow forced Rhaegar to arrest Lyanna, either to break down the formulating marriage alliances or because he found out that she was the KOTLT. But Rhaegar also being a prisoner makes some sense as well. The only problem I have with this is that why would Aerys send Arthur Dayne, who was Rhaegar's best friend, to be one of his prison guards? Aerys must have had something on Rhaegar. Maybe he had been threatening Elia and the kids the whole time?

The same reason he named Jaime Lannister to the KG, because he was mad and acts faster than he thinks. Its probably he use Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon as bargain chips.

[sweetsunray]

The mysteries of the ToJ are this

1) How did Rhaegar come to know of its existence and choose it for his hiding place with Lyanna. Dorne is Elia's original home. Seems risky to hide her rival there and thus must be a place not even the Martells know about or would ever consider checking out. Arthur Dayne may have proposed the location (because he knew of it personally, or perhaps Ashara knew of it as a place) or a mystery person. It is safe to suppose that Rhaegar chose the spoth voluntarily, because he named the place "Tower of Joy" himself. It wasn't his prison, nor Lyanna's.

2) How did Rhaegar and Lyanna manage to hide there for so long without knowing what the hell was happening in the realm? Well, they would have been forced to almost all stay in hiding there. They had to avoid attracting any attention to the place by having someone recognizable as being of KL ride around to find out news about the realm (so KG not doing any shopping, Rhaegar neither). Also, no ravens can be sent. At best, some servant could have traveled to a market and back for provisions once in a while. Or someone in the know nearby regularly sent provisions there. This makes Ashara Dayne a possibility of those who aided them. But then why would she have remained mute when the proverbial $hit hit the fan in KL? Since Rhaegar and Lyanna never came out of hiding to prevent any more damage, before Hightower was sent to go looking for him, that actually rules out Ashara being in the know of their whereabouts.

3) How did Hightower know where to find Rhaegar so quickly? He was either in the know from the beginning. But then why didn't he send some messenger way earlier to Rhaeger that the plan was backfiring if he was in on it from the get go? He could have gone looking for Rhaegar in the area of Summerhall, assuming Rhaegar must have found a hiding spot there, because he notoriously roamed that place and area to sing songs. Hightower couldn't have been searching long there, so there must have been an instant lead given to him there by a mystery person.

4) How did Ned know where to find Lyanna so quickly? He lifted the siege of SE, liberating Stannis, and this in the battle at Summerhall.This means nobody in KL informed him about Lyanna's whereabouts, because nobody could. Had someone in KL told Ned, he would have left for Dorne immediately to free Lyanna, and would have informed Robert of it. Summerhall is the sole place linked to all three persons, except for the ToJ itself. He doesn't go with Stannis to Dragonstone, where Viserys and the expected remaining KG are supposed to be. Nope, he goes for Dorne, apparently thinking Lyanna is imprisoned somewhere without KG. So, again a mystery person informs him where to go striaght away, but without telling him anything more than the fact that there is where he can find Lyanna. Ned doesn't suspect the KG are guarding her (they're supposed to be with Viserys), but at the most perhaps some sellswords and thus only takes with him 5 other people, including HR (who isn't much of a fighter according to the incidents with the squires at the Harrenhall Tournay to begin with). Make note of the fact that Ned doesn't expect much resistance at all, based on the fact he takes only such a small company with him. He arrives, and is surprised to find the 3 KG there.

Considering all that, the simplest answer is a mystery person tied to Summerhall, and I can only come up with GoHH to tie it all neatly up in a bundle.

[sweetsunray]

The idea of Rhaegar being prisoner along with Lyanna actually makes some sense. I have been flirting with the idea that Aerys somehow forced Rhaegar to arrest Lyanna, either to break down the formulating marriage alliances or because he found out that she was the KOTLT. But Rhaegar also being a prisoner makes some sense as well. The only problem I have with this is that why would Aerys send Arthur Dayne, who was Rhaegar's best friend, to be one of his prison guards? Aerys must have had something on Rhaegar. Maybe he had been threatening Elia and the kids the whole time?

Why would Rhaegar then name his prison the Tower of Joy?

[bent branch]

The mysteries of the ToJ are this

1) How did Rhaegar come to know of its existence and choose it for his hiding place with Lyanna. Dorne is Elia's original home. Seems risky to hide her rival there and thus must be a place not even the Martells know about or would ever consider checking out. Arthur Dayne may have proposed the location (because he knew of it personally, or perhaps Ashara knew of it as a place) or a mystery person. It is safe to suppose that Rhaegar chose the spoth voluntarily, because he named the place "Tower of Joy" himself. It wasn't his prison, nor Lyanna's.

2) How did Rhaegar and Lyanna manage to hide there for so long without knowing what the hell was happening in the realm? Well, they would have been forced to almost all stay in hiding there. They had to avoid attracting any attention to the place by having someone recognizable as being of KL ride around to find out news about the realm (so KG not doing any shopping, Rhaegar neither). Also, no ravens can be sent. At best, some servant could have traveled to a market and back for provisions once in a while. Or someone in the know nearby regularly sent provisions there. This makes Ashara Dayne a possibility of those who aided them. But then why would she have remained mute when the proverbial $hit hit the fan in KL? Since Rhaegar and Lyanna never came out of hiding to prevent any more damage, before Hightower was sent to go looking for him, that actually rules out Ashara being in the know of their whereabouts.

3) How did Hightower know where to find Rhaegar so quickly? He was either in the know from the beginning. But then why didn't he send some messenger way earlier to Rhaeger that the plan was backfiring if he was in on it from the get go? He could have gone looking for Rhaegar in the area of Summerhall, assuming Rhaegar must have found a hiding spot there, because he notoriously roamed that place and area to sing songs. Hightower couldn't have been searching long there, so there must have been an instant lead given to him there by a mystery person.

4) How did Ned know where to find Lyanna so quickly? He lifted the siege of SE, liberating Stannis, and this in the battle at Summerhall.This means nobody in KL informed him about Lyanna's whereabouts, because nobody could. Had someone in KL told Ned, he would have left for Dorne immediately to free Lyanna, and would have informed Robert of it. Summerhall is the sole place linked to all three persons, except for the ToJ itself. He doesn't go with Stannis to Dragonstone, where Viserys and the expected remaining KG are supposed to be. Nope, he goes for Dorne, apparently thinking Lyanna is imprisoned somewhere without KG. So, again a mystery person informs him where to go striaght away, but without telling him anything more than the fact that there is where he can find Lyanna. Ned doesn't suspect the KG are guarding her (they're supposed to be with Viserys), but at the most perhaps some sellswords and thus only takes with him 5 other people, including HR (who isn't much of a fighter according to the incidents with the squires at the Harrenhall Tournay to begin with). Make note of the fact that Ned doesn't expect much resistance at all, based on the fact he takes only such a small company with him. He arrives, and is surprised to find the 3 KG there.

Considering all that, the simplest answer is a mystery person tied to Summerhall, and I can only come up with GoHH to tie it all neatly up in a bundle.

I don't understand why you are associating Ned with Summerhall. As far as I can tell Summerhall is associated with Robert and Rhaegar. I don't see where Ned had anything to do with Summerhall at all. I'm always willing to learn.

[Alaynsa Starne]

Why would Rhaegar then name his prison the Tower of Joy?

Dark irony?

[sweetsunray]

I don't understand why you are associating Ned with Summerhall. As far as I can tell Summerhall is associated with Robert and Rhaegar. I don't see where Ned had anything to do with Summerhall at all. I'm always willing to learn.

Summerhall was where the army was gathered to siege SE. Robert won three battles there at the start of the rebellion but had to move on, and left Stannis, who was then besieged for almost a year, holding on to SE, while Robert moved on to KL and got wounded on the Trident. For Ned to lift the siege of SE on Stannis, Ned too would have had to move on Summerhall.

[bent branch]

Summerhall was where the army was gathered to siege SE. Robert won three battles there at the start of the rebellion but had to move on, and left Stannis, who was then besieged for almost a year, holding on to SE, while Robert moved on to KL and got wounded on the Trident. For Ned to lift the siege of SE on Stannis, Ned too would have had to move on Summerhall.

I'm sorry, I still don't understand. At the beginning of the rebellion three of Robert's bannermen were going to meet at Summerhall to rise against Robert, but he fought each of their three armies as they arrived and thus brought his rebellious bannermen back under his command. When this happened Ned was still in the north gathering his troops. Then after the Sack of KL, Ned took his troops and ended the siege at SE. Storm's End is southeast of KL and Summerhall is southwest of KL (and it appears, even further south than SE). It doesn't say anywhere that Ned went to Summerhall before going to SE and I'm having a hard time understanding why he would.

[three-eyed monkey]

Actually, you can't rule out Varys or someone in KL telling Ned where Lyanna is because of his statement that expected to see them at SE since he also expected them to be with Viserys. The whole point of that recitation of all the places Ned expected to see them was to emphasize that he didn't expect them to be with Lyanna. So the fact that Ned didn't expect them to be with Lyanna tells us something, but that something is nothing about where Ned learned of Lyanna's location.

I think Ned's expectations might have changed as the situation developed, but from the very outset he must have feared that his sister would be used as a hostage by the Targs.

Rhaegar "kidnapped" Lyanna, and Rhaegar had marched to the Trident from KL so at first Ned probably expected to find Lyanna in the Red keep with Aerys and 4 remaining KG. When only Jaime and Aerys turned up Ned must have assumed that the 3 remaking KG sailed for Dragonstone with the Queen and Viserys, and took their hostage with them. When that proved not to be the case then the last remaining loyalist army at Storm's End was the only place left, in the context of Lyanna being a political hostage. The surrender at Storm's End meant Lyanna no longer had value as a political hostage, yet she was still missing and 3 renowned KG as well, Rhaegar's best friend amongst them. I don't think Ned would have seen that as a coincidence. The whole ToJ situation would certainly have seemed very odd from Ned's point of view, but I think he rode to the tower knowing who he would find there. And I think the fact that he only took a small group of trusted companions suggests, to me at least, that he had some strong suspicions as to what he might find there.

[kimim]

Barristan hints that certain members of the Kingsguard were closer to Rhaegar than he was, which indicates Hightower, Whent and Dayne, with some likelihood. As for how they found him, why wouldn't he have told them? If the abduction of Lyanna was premeditated, they probably knew what was going on. Hence: where did Rhaegar know? Well, they knew where. Hence he was easy to find, unless they weren't already travelling with him at the start.

This. Jaime says that Rhaegar was aware that the situation was dangerous, and had meant to call a council long ago. Given that, it's difficult to believe that Rhaegar would disappear, cutting all communication. His friends must have told him about Robert's Rebellion, and he must have chosen to stay away until Hightower showed up. It's possible that he never got the full extent of the disaster, as communication would have been inadequate--no cell phones, no glass candles. It's possible that Hightower appeared in person, gave Rhaegar the full rundown, at which point, Rhaegar chose to leave.

btw there's no hint that Rhaegar was held prisoner in his words to Jaime:

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime's shoulder. "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."

"Roads not taken," implies choice, rather than imprisonment. Rhaegar could have taken a certain path, but chose another. He does not wish to speak of that road, and makes the assumption that he will return. He is wrong. He is wrong about a great many things.

[Alaynsa Starne]

btw there's no hint that Rhaegar was held prisoner in his words to Jaime:

"Roads not taken," implies choice, rather than imprisonment. Rhaegar could have taken a certain path, but chose another. He does not wish to speak of that road, and makes the assumption that he will return. He is wrong. He is wrong about a great many things.

Good point. Although the "but" before he trails off indicates that something prevented him from making those crucial changes. Whether what stopped him were personal feelings or something else, I guess we won't know until the end.