Hightower was able to find Rhaegar. How? Implications?

[Arrow of the Morning]

Very interesting topic. The questions about the Robert Rebellion and about Rhaegar and Lyanna are the ones I like the most.

We don't know how ser Gerold founded the Tower of Joy, neither why he stayed there and didn't come back to King's Landing (He stayed to protect Lyanna, but how Rhaegar convinced him is a mystery).

I think that is unlikely that he knew that Rhaegar was in ToJ. The only two ways that he knew was:

1) Ser Gerold was close to Rhaegar, we know some members of the Kingsguard were very close to Rhaegar, like Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent and Prince Lewyn Martell, if Gerold Hightower was in the team we don't know.

2) Varys knew where the prince was and tell to Gerold.

The first is possible, but we have to ask witch plans Rhaegar had and if he included the Tower of Joy in the plan in the first beginning or just went there without a previous planning. The second is almost impossible, Varys would tell to Aerys and he would demand Ser Gerold to bring Lyanna like hostage against the Eddard and Robert.

But I think that he could track Rhaegar an co asking people in the way. We had a handsome guy with silver hair, a skinny girl with brownish hair, two kingsguard in his white armors; one with a bat in the helmet and another with a unique sword in his back. A very distinctive group.

And about Ned he could track Lyanna in the same way, but some speculate that Howland Reed could helped. He can be a skinchanger and sinchangers are the best scout ever. He would be able to enter in the mind of a bird like (hawk, owl, crow...) he could seem a very long distance. Warging a dog, wolf, fox he could track some person by the smell. We don't know id Howland is a warg, but it is a good possibility.

[Arrow of the Morning]

The mysteries of the ToJ are this

1) How did Rhaegar come to know of its existence and choose it for his hiding place with Lyanna. Dorne is Elia's original home. Seems risky to hide her rival there and thus must be a place not even the Martells know about or would ever consider checking out. Arthur Dayne may have proposed the location (because he knew of it personally, or perhaps Ashara knew of it as a place) or a mystery person. It is safe to suppose that Rhaegar chose the spoth voluntarily, because he named the place "Tower of Joy" himself. It wasn't his prison, nor Lyanna's.

Actually hiding in Dorne was not so dangerous, the realm was in war and according So Spake Martin, happened many battles, sieges and sirmishes in everywhere, except Dorne. So there was the most safe place after all. Dorne is very big, is impossible a liege lord knows everything that is happening in his entire region and I agree that Arthur could suggest the ToJ, since he is dornish and could know well some places and hiding places.

2) How did Rhaegar and Lyanna manage to hide there for so long without knowing what the hell was happening in the realm? Well, they would have been forced to almost all stay in hiding there. They had to avoid attracting any attention to the place by having someone recognizable as being of KL ride around to find out news about the realm (so KG not doing any shopping, Rhaegar neither). Also, no ravens can be sent. At best, some servant could have traveled to a market and back for provisions once in a while. Or someone in the know nearby regularly sent provisions there. This makes Ashara Dayne a possibility of those who aided them. But then why would she have remained mute when the proverbial $hit hit the fan in KL? Since Rhaegar and Lyanna never came out of hiding to prevent any more damage, before Hightower was sent to go looking for him, that actually rules out Ashara being in the know of their whereabouts.

They were traveling from Harrenhal to Dorne, they could taken months to reach their final destination with little information and (like you said) they had no raven or meistre in the tower so they couldn't send or receive letters. The House Dayne could helped them with supplies, servants (Wylla) and information, but relied in few servants to keep it in secret.

[Lord Varys]

I doubt that Rhaegar and Lyanna spent most of their time in that tower. Aerys searched for Rhaegar at least since he fired Owen Merryweather as he originally intended to name Rhaegar Hand instead of Jon Connington - who was chosen because he could not find Rhaegar.

I imagine that Varys searched for reports on Rhaegar's whereabouts and by the time Hightower was sent to fetch him back he may have gathered enough to provide him with a general direction.

Whoever told Ned about the tower may not have been the same person as Rhaegar may have talked about where he was after he had returned to KL.

'Roads not taken' clearly refers to Harrenhal which was supposed to be a covert Great Council but wasn't one after Aerys decided to attend the tourney.

[bent branch]

I think Ned's expectations might have changed as the situation developed, but from the very outset he must have feared that his sister would be used as a hostage by the Targs.

Rhaegar "kidnapped" Lyanna, and Rhaegar had marched to the Trident from KL so at first Ned probably expected to find Lyanna in the Red keep with Aerys and 4 remaining KG. When only Jaime and Aerys turned up Ned must have assumed that the 3 remaking KG sailed for Dragonstone with the Queen and Viserys, and took their hostage with them. When that proved not to be the case then the last remaining loyalist army at Storm's End was the only place left, in the context of Lyanna being a political hostage. The surrender at Storm's End meant Lyanna no longer had value as a political hostage, yet she was still missing and 3 renowned KG as well, Rhaegar's best friend amongst them. I don't think Ned would have seen that as a coincidence. The whole ToJ situation would certainly have seemed very odd from Ned's point of view, but I think he rode to the tower knowing who he would find there. And I think the fact that he only took a small group of trusted companions suggests, to me at least, that he had some strong suspicions as to what he might find there.

I agree with your first sentence entirely. And I agree that when Ned first arrived in KL he probably expected that Lyanna would be there (lucky she wasn't). It is after Ned arrives in KL and doesn't find Lyanna there that the situation becomes much more muddy.

If the fever dream is accurate, Ned might have genuinely thought the missing KG would be working the siege at SE. When he didn't find them there he may have thought they went to Viserys. At this point I don't think Ned really cared a whole lot. He was angry with Robert for the deaths of Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon and he probably wanted to just end the siege at SE, find Lyanna and go home.

Like you, I am inclined to think that Ned only taking six men with him is significant. However, I think it is significant in that Ned probably didn't anticipate any real problem in retrieving Lyanna. I think he took six men in order to avoid unnecessary hassles on the road and yet still provide a level of discretion for Lyanna. He may have known or suspected that Lyanna was pregnant, but I doubt he realized that the three KG had been left with Lyanna. If the fever dream is at all accurate, he probably didn't know they were there. We may never know for sure. It would help to know who told Ned where Lyanna was. If that person knew the KG were there, then Ned might indeed have been told.

Returning to the issue of who told Ned, it seems clear that the only two places Ned could have learned of Lyanna's location is KL or SE. We aren't told of Ned making any other stops before going to the ToJ. This raises the question of who in the besieging contingent was close enough to Rhaegar, Aerys' court or KG to know where Lyanna was. From what we are told about this contingent there doesn't seem to be anyone who was sufficiently close to the various parties to be in the know.

Because of this we are forced back to KL. Someone from KL must have told Ned about Lyanna and the ToJ. Depending on who this person was, they may have also told Ned about the KG (or they might not have for whatever reason). They may have told Ned that Lyanna was pregnant.

This brings me back to my first post on this thread. There are only three people who were close to the throne left in KL after the sack: Jaime, Pycelle, and Varys. It is obvious that it wasn't Jaime. Even if Pycelle knew, he was Tywin's man and probably would have informed Tywin rather than Ned. This really only leaves Varys, who knows stuff he shouldn't and does things for his own obscure reasons. I realize that Varys is an unpopular option for many people for many reasons, but with what we know right now he is the most likely person to have informed Ned (like I said before, he probably just gave Ned an anonymous note).

The other two options that we have right now is that a random servant or guard told Ned or that Ned just went looking for Lyanna like Brienne went looking for Sansa. If either of these two things are right, then Ned probably had no idea at all what he would find. I think Ned found Lyanna too quickly for the second option and the first option is impossible to know unless we're told.

Returning to the OP question, how did Hightower find the ToJ, I think there are four plausible options:

1. Aerys. If it was Aerys who told Hightower where to find Rhaegar, then the situation at court was very different than we have been led to believe. I am open to this possibility. It is obvious that there is a lot about the last days of Aerys reign that we don't yet know.

2. Rhaegar. If it was Rhaegar that told Hightower where he would be, then the scuttlebutt about Rhaegar planning some move against his father are probably true.

3. Varys. If it was Varys who told Hightower where Rhaegar was, then Varys may have been working both sides of the conflict for whatever reason.

4. Ghost of High Heart. While I find this possibility unlikely for Ned (there is no indication he ever went to Summerhall) with Hightower it is actually plausible. Hightower would have known to look for Rhaegar at Summerhall and I think it likely he was already acquainted with the GoHH, since he was made Lord Commander upon the death of Dunk. It seems likely that he entered the KG at least during the reign of Aegon V, so he would have known about GoHH's foretelling abilities and maybe trusted in them. Ned was one of the biggest magic skeptics in the story. This is one of the reasons that in addition to Ned never having been reported going to Summerhall that I doubt this was the answer for Ned. I think Ned would have just thought her a batty old woman.

[sweetsunray]

To the reason why I think Ned was in the Summerhall area and got his crucial information there:

So, originally three loyalist liegelords of Robert gathere there to march on SE, Robert's seat of power, refusing to rebel against Aerys. Robert battles them there thrice in a day and wins all. He then leaves Stannis with a minimal garrison in SE to hold it for him. The Tyrells lay siege on it. With Robert moving for the Trident and KL, and Stannis holed up at SE, the host that lays siege on SE has the Storm Lands to themselves.

Analogy to WW1 tactics: while armies were besieging each other across the frontline of trenches, they relieved each other every couple of days. The soldiers who were relieved or were wounded were being cared for or relaxed away from the frontline, in the country they occupied.

Back to the siege: A large host as Tyrell's needs food and relax time. So, they'd b prowling the country and amass as reserves in another area to control the Storm Lands. Summerhall would have been the ideal area for it, especially because you'd have the loyalist Dorne in your back .

While Ned ended the siege, just by arriving and without battle, the whole host needed to have been disparsed, and for this reason it's logical he'd have been at Summerhall.

Another possibility is map related. Ned left from Storm's End. If nobody had a clue there, people would still have directed him to Summerhall to find out more, as it was Rhaegar's favourite haunt and Hightower would have passed there too. And if he had planned to get info from Ashara at Starfall, just look at the map and check the fastest route between SE and the ToJ and Starfall: Ned had to pass through Summerhall. SO, we have three different scenario's, and in all three Ned would have passed through Summerhall.

[Crippledtank]

That seems likely. Who?

Varys? Probably wasn't in rhaegars circle but he probably knew as much as them, and he gained Roberts favor by this?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

It's when I researched Ned's movements again after the KL for this thread and ended with the battle for Summerhall to lift the siege of SE, I wikied Summerhall. It had a quote from the GoHH and then it struck me she was the ideal person to have been in contact with a) Rhaegar b ) Hightower c) Ned. Most simple answer, purely based on location and the link to the prophecy, and her ability to see past and future, and therefore able to choose to give information on the one hand, but leave out other information on the other hand: why Rhaegar chose the ToJ as a perfect hiding place, why Hightower could ride straight from Summerhall to the ToJ, and why Ned would even consider riding for Dorne (a country he doesn't know and never has been) to some obscure pass without any escort from Starfall or Oldtown and not losing any time.

Sure, he could have ridden to Starfall to chat with Ashara, but why would Ashara know where her brother is? KG-business is not her business. Doesn't seem likely that Arthur woudl have told Ashara about it, because it's not his secret to tell. It's Rhaegar's.

Summerhall is in no way connected to Ned Stark or any action after the actual battle Robert fought there early in the war.

Yes

When Rhaegar was summoned to lead the Royalists at the Trident by all rights and means he should have been accompanied by Hightower, Dayne and Whent....however they stayed behind to guard ToJ...Why all three? I suggest not just because Lyanna was pregnant but also because there was an heir (Meera) born on her already...

Oh, the joy of two pregnancies in about 15 months...

3) How did Hightower know where to find Rhaegar so quickly? He was either in the know from the beginning. But then why didn't he send some messenger way earlier to Rhaeger that the plan was backfiring if he was in on it from the get go? He could have gone looking for Rhaegar in the area of Summerhall, assuming Rhaegar must have found a hiding spot there, because he notoriously roamed that place and area to sing songs. Hightower couldn't have been searching long there, so there must have been an instant lead given to him there by a mystery person.

Hightower had almost nine months to find Rhaegar. He started searching just after the Battle of the Bells, about the time Ned married Cat, and Rhaegar returned, marched and arrived at the Trident about two weeks before Robb was born.

Analogy to WW1 tactics: while armies were besieging each other across the frontline of trenches, they relieved each other every couple of days. The soldiers who were relieved or were wounded were being cared for or relaxed away from the frontline, in the country they occupied.

WW1 tactics featured about 100 million soldiers in an area smaller than the Dornish Marches, with freaking trains and cars available. As well as radio. Just a slight difference.

[Howling Mad]

Summerhall is in no way connected to Ned Stark or any action after the actual battle Robert fought there early in the war.

Oh, the joy of two pregnancies in about 15 months...

Hightower had almost nine months to find Rhaegar. He started searching just after the Battle of the Bells, about the time Ned married Cat, and Rhaegar returned, marched and arrived at the Trident about two weeks before Robb was born.

WW1 tactics featured about 100 million soldiers in an area smaller than the Dornish Marches, with freaking trains and cars available. As well as radio. Just a slight difference.

Har! On these boards facts never stand in the way of a good theory.

[sweetsunray]

Summerhall is in no way connected to Ned Stark or any action after the actual battle Robert fought there early in the war.

Hightower had almost nine months to find Rhaegar. He started searching just after the Battle of the Bells, about the time Ned married Cat, and Rhaegar returned, marched and arrived at the Trident about two weeks before Robb was born.

WW1 tactics featured about 100 million soldiers in an area smaller than the Dornish Marches, with freaking trains and cars available. As well as radio. Just a slight difference.

I'm Belgian so I know what that front line looked like and what material was used. Relieved soldiers marched miles on plank pathways to the safety zones, mostly on foot. Cars? Perhaps a few for the king and his wife. Trains? None. Horses? For the high ranked military. Heck they marched on foot all the way from Antwerp, after it fell, to where they flooded Flander's fields and halted the Germans: a march on foot of 80 miles.(but hey, I know nothing of facts, huh?) The point was that the whole host laying siege is not constantly at SE, certainly not if the siege lasts almost for a full year, but relieves itself with reserves and would need a gathering area far behind the siege lines. If a large host completely remains a year long at the same place, they'd starve and fight. Just remember Harrenhall in a aCoK... It would be suicide to remain too long with a large host in the same area when you're not gettnig food from a large surrounding area. And I used WWI as an example, because it was a war that used modern weaponry with old style war tactics.

But yes, there is no direct statement that Ned was ever there, in the books. All we know is that he was first in SE and then next was at the ToJ. We know nothing else. But Ned had to get from SE to the ToJ, and part of the discussion is logically establishing what that route would and could have been, and would make the most sense, irregardless of the fact that the route is not known to us via the books so far.

Also, have you looked at the map: from KL to the ToJ and then back to KL and the Trident. Neither Rhaegar nor Hoghtower traveled by jetplane.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I'm Belgian so I know what that front line looked like and what material was used. Relieved soldiers marched miles on plank pathways to the safety zones, mostly on foot. Cars? Perhaps a few for the king and his wife. Trains? None. Horses? For the high ranked military. Heck they marched on foot all the way from Antwerp, after it fell, to where they flooded Flander's fields and halted the Germans: a march on foot of 80 miles.(but hey, I know nothing of facts, huh?) The point was that the whole host laying siege is not constantly at SE, but relieves itself with reserves and would need a gathering area far behind the siege lines. And I used WWI as an example, because it was a war that used modern weaponry with old style war tactics.

And beyond those 80 miles? Trains. All the supply got carried by train, right up until the last hop to the actual frontline.

While the army at Storms End was 500 miles from the Reach, on lousy roads. That's about an entire month of marching, more like 50 days. One-way of course.

And no bureaucracy to administrate stuff like that.

WWI had already modern logistics. That's the reason it was so damn bloody.

[sweetsunray]

And beyond those 80 miles? Trains. All the supply got carried by train, right up until the last hop to the actual frontline.

While the army at Storms End was 500 miles from the Reach, on lousy roads. That's about an entire month of marching, more like 50 days. One-way of course.

And no bureaucracy to administrate stuff like that.

WWI had already modern logistics. That's the reason it was so damn bloody.

But again you completely ignore my point: the whole host was not 100% of the time in the trenches. They relieved each other, and marched to a safe zone. Sure they might have had supplies coming in from France, but these were sent to the safe zone, and then carried on food, across the plank pathways to the trenches. Similarly, Tyrell's complete host would not have been stationary for a year long right at SE. The host would have had a schedule for the soldiers to go to a safe zone, hunt, burn a village and steal food, etc... while others replace them back at the actual siege.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Yes, that's called patrolling and foraging. With "safe zone" being the actual camp a mile from SE or whatever. Not 300 miles away at Summerhall. That's a month of marching, one way!

[sweetsunray]

Yes, that's called patrolling and foraging. With "safe zone" being the actual camp a mile from SE or whatever. Not 300 miles away at Summerhall. That's a month of marching, one way!

And there you have a point :)

[BalerionTheCat]

Rhaegar and Lyanna were missing for nearly to 2 years. Rhaegar had half a dozen of his closest friends with him. And maybe Lyanna was not alone either, assuming she was cooperating. Many were probably searching for them. And staying hidden needed some logistic. Which was probably provided by his friends. Rhaegar would be expected at the stronghold of one of his friends. Starfall would be the first place to look for.

What is interesting is that Hightower didn't return with Rhaegar. And neither Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent. So Rhaegar must have a convincing justification to keep them with Lyanna. Meaning he could risk taking Hightower in his plans. I would believe Hightower went to Starfall. And there, he found one of Rhaegar's friends, willing to lead him to the Tower.

Varys is no magician. He had no means to suppose better than Starfall. And he would not have helped Ned anyway. And later, in GOT, Ned had no confidence in him. Only one of Rhaegar's friends could have told Ned where to find Lyanna. It means they wanted to be found by Ned, not by Lannisters or Baratheons. Maybe something went wrong at the Tower, maybe things were not what it seems ...

[Modesty Lannister]

Sorry to rain on everyone's parade here, but look at this quote:

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

Eddard X, AGOT

How do we know that a place Rhaegar had named the tower of joy is the actual Tower of Joy?

[earth127]

Have you heard of another tower of Joy?

I think the 3 kingsguards ate the ToJ must have close to Rhaegar so it's logical Hightower knew where to look.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Sorry to rain on everyone's parade here, but look at this quote:

How do we know that a place Rhaegar had named the tower of joy is the actual Tower of Joy?

Because the name "Tower of Joy" is only ever brought up in relation to Rhaegar, Lyanna, the three KGs or the five Northmen dying there.

[Gerg Sknab]

Summerhall is in no way connected to Ned Stark or any action after the actual battle Robert fought there early in the war.

Oh, the joy of two pregnancies in about 15 months...

Hightower had almost nine months to find Rhaegar. He started searching just after the Battle of the Bells, about the time Ned married Cat, and Rhaegar returned, marched and arrived at the Trident about two weeks before Robb was born.

WW1 tactics featured about 100 million soldiers in an area smaller than the Dornish Marches, with freaking trains and cars available. As well as radio. Just a slight difference.

You do know the term "Irish twins" don't you?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

You do know the term "Irish twins" don't you?

We know when Lyanna met Rhaegar. We know when Ned found her. And no, it wasn't 18 months in between.

[Gerg Sknab]

We know when Lyanna met Rhaegar. We know when Ned found her. And no, it wasn't 18 months in between.

"Irish Twins"....children born within a calender year or a twelve month period....that is less than eighteen months isn't it?