Shadowbinders are evil ?

[DraculaAD1972]

Taking human seed and twisting it into a shadow that kills using dark magic is evil. Shadow binding has been classified as the darkest magic there is. Dark magic by default cannot be in the service of good. Intent is what makes magic dark. Dark intent, dark magic. Melisandre can pose as a septa, a red priestess, a virgin queen. It doesn't matter. She is a shadow binder. Her shadows kill. And they don't stop there, they corrupt the soul of the person whose seed was used to create a shadow baby - in her case Stannis. So, her destruction and corruption affect both the one who wished someone's death and the one who was actually killed.

I'm not sure that the soul of Stannis has been corrupted- more like his lifeforce has been drained. This could work along the lines of the price charged by the faceless men. The assassination comes at a heavy cost. This could work as a natural balance to stop too many shadowbabies. In principle, birthing a shadowbaby is similiar to hiring a faceless man.

Loved all your comments here, once again. Particularly enjoyed the explanation of pagan polytheism vs "monotheism," which is actually the second form of dualism where one side needs to have total victory to achieve peace. Of course the mother goddess and the bull god are the first known divinities; the story of Ba'al dying in the fall and being resurrected by the mother goddess to bring the sorting is the oldest of rituals.

Where I strongly, strongly disagree is that human sacrifice is the original intent of the esoteric mystery here. Strongly disagree. The death and rebirth is a metaphor - literal blood sacrifice is actually a gross misunderstanding of myth, whether in the case of the Celts, Aztecs, or anyone else. The core of theses legends are astronomy and esoteric knowledge. Only when later peoples come along and do not grasp the original intent do we get things like human sacrifice.

This is only my opinion, of course, I'm not claiming it as a matter of fact. But I do feel very strongly about this. The highest forms of real magic don't have anything to do with blood sacrifice, in my opinion, but rather consciousness elevated to a vibrational frequency at which other layers of reality become perceptible. This is achieved through a lifetime (or at least a good portion of it) spent in attaining mastery of the self and the mind, through ritual which creates a space outside of time, and most of all, by becoming a channel of the only true God energy - love - which connects the user to all people and all things.. the cosmos itself.

It certainly is hard to accept the horrific nature of human sacrifice, it's difficult to see it as anything other than a crime against humanity. Animal sacrifice is similarly unsavoury. My own broadly buddhist morality sits uneasily with my interest in paganism. But it seems that sacrifice was very common and often played a central spiritual role in the life of the pagans.

[ummester]

I think it is indeed true that, once upon a time, human sacrifice was a 'normal' part of human spiritual beliefs. It's not really that hard to fathom why. Understanding the difference between life and death, finding meaning in mortality, was a very large component of our species developing intellectually, as was fire.

Some of Mel's behaviour is very much in line with how I imagine ancient pagan priests would have been. The difference, of course, was that we were not as technologically and socially advanced as the characters in ASoIaF when we were doing it.

[Modesty Lannister]

I'm not sure that the soul of Stannis has been corrupted- more like his lifeforce has been drained. This could work along the lines of the price charged by the faceless men. The assassination comes at a heavy cost. This could work as a natural balance to stop too many shadowbabies. In principle, birthing a shadowbaby is similiar to hiring a faceless man.

I am sure that a soul of a man who kills his own brother is corrupted.

[LmL]

I believe it was you, Mithras, who had a more detailed theory about what shadow binding really is, but iirc, the idea is that a shadow is a remnant of a person - not their soul exact;y, but heir shadow upon the world - its more like a ghost. I believe that "shadow binding" should be understood in these terms. You are binding a shadow of a person to something. When the R'hllorists resurrect someone, they are shadow binding - binding the shade of a person such as Beric or Cat - to a resurrected corpse. Something like that. Melisandre's shadow babies are the shade of an unborn child, as Modesty was alluding to, as well as some bit of the fathers shadow as well, as is clearly implied with Stannis.

[Mithras]

I believe it was you, Mithras, who had a more detailed theory about what shadow binding really is, but iirc, the idea is that a shadow is a remnant of a person - not their soul exact;y, but heir shadow upon the world - its more like a ghost. I believe that "shadow binding" should be understood in these terms. You are binding a shadow of a person to something. When the R'hllorists resurrect someone, they are shadow binding - binding the shade of a person such as Beric or Cat - to a resurrected corpse. Something like that. Melisandre's shadow babies are the shade of an unborn child, as Modesty was alluding to, as well as some bit of the fathers shadow as well, as is clearly implied with Stannis.

That was not my theory but an interesting notion. I am 100% sure that ghosts are real in ASOIAF world. When they come, they put out lights and they bring a chilling cold. They seem to be hungering for sunlight and heat. When Jaime dreamed of Joanna, I am 100% sure that her ghost actually came and spoke to him. Same is true for Ned's ghost which is in the crypts and trying to reach Jon in his dreams. An interesting thing about vegetative Drogo is that he seemed to like the heat and sun.

[LmL]

That was not my theory but an interesting notion. I am 100% sure that ghosts are real in ASOIAF world. When they come, they put out lights and they bring a chilling cold. They seem to be hungering for sunlight and heat. When Jaime dreamed of Joanna, I am 100% sure that her ghost actually came and spoke to him. Same is true for Ned's ghost which is in the crypts and trying to reach Jon in his dreams. An interesting thing about vegetative Drogo is that he seemed to like the heat and sun.

Very interesting observations. I'll have to watch out for the ghosts in the dreams. The idea Ned's ghost is running loose because his bones aren't in then crypts kind of makes sense doesn't it? It makes sense why George has made such a big deal about Ned's bones not getting to Winterfell.

[Mithras]

That and also it is important to remember that Ned's ghost is restless because of a certain promise he failed to keep ("Tell Jon about his true parents when he grows up. Promise me, Ned.")

[SeanF]

I think it is indeed true that, once upon a time, human sacrifice was a 'normal' part of human spiritual beliefs. It's not really that hard to fathom why. Understanding the difference between life and death, finding meaning in mortality, was a very large component of our species developing intellectually, as was fire.

Some of Mel's behaviour is very much in line with how I imagine ancient pagan priests would have been. The difference, of course, was that we were not as technologically and socially advanced as the characters in ASoIaF when we were doing it.

This is a world in which human sacrifice works. Burning someone alive isn't merely a harsh punishment; it generates results, such as hatching dragons, or obtaining favourable weather.

Whatever entity grants rewards in return for live burnings is unlikely to be good, as we would understand the term.

[LmL]

That and also it is important to remember that Ned's ghost is restless because of a certain promise he failed to keep ("Tell Jon about his true parents when he grows up. Promise me, Ned.")

I buy your idea on this one; it seemed a significant moment when Ned told Jon he would tell him the truth when he got back. But he could really only safely do it after Jon had taken his NW vows. Not only to keep Jon from potentially rebelling, but also to keep others from trying to use him (a la Daemon Blackfyre).